J2b1-M205 introduced to Eupedia

[Dema]

Hi to everyone. I just wanted to mention that there is a small town Qirmizi Qasaba in Azerbaijan with population over 10000 people and all of them are J2b1. I will be very thankful to any respond on this subject.

Hello, i see that you put designation MtDNA: J2b1. We are debating here about Y-DNA J2b1-M205 paternal haplogroup.
I just want to make sure there is no confusion because i know there is also J2b1 MtDNA.


Best regards.

 

[Dema]

First of all, all of this was really cancerous to read : D I thought that ban would last longer, so I haven't been visiting the thread. I'd just like to add a few things that are not too related to genetics, but to geography of my bloodline, and also to Vlach derivative names around the place where I live. I currently live in Leskovac, but my ancestors came from Novo Selo, which was near Mlaciste (which was also known for having a large amount of Sarakatsani [Karakačani, which could have also been called Vlasi or Vlachs due to their shepherding]). I will post a few pictures of places that are near my town that bear the name of Vlachs. These include Vlase no.1 (Village near the Kosovo boreder), Vlase no.2 (Village near Leskovac), Vlasotince (a small town near Leskovac), Vlasina (a river flowing through Vlasotince) and last, but not the least, Vlasinsko jezero (a south east of Leskovac). All of these names of places clearly show an abundant influence of Vlachs in this area. In my village (Orasac, east of Leskovac) there is a story that we come from Greeks (Sarakatsani), but as I concluded before with Dema, it might be that most J2b1 migrants were called Greeks because of the influence of Eastern Roman Empire and Greek language in Levant. I also can't help but notice that Dema keeps saying that our J2b1 forebears must have spoken Latin. I think it's more likely that Greek was an official language in Levant back then, since the cultural and language barrier was the major influence behind the division between East and West Roman Empire.


Take care y'all

P.S. I can't post links or pictures since I don't have enough posts here -.-' If you want the link or the picture, dm me.

Mercurial best regards,

looks like our branch Y22059,Y22066 is one of most northern Balkan branches of J2-M205. Other branches are more south, like in South Albania and Greece. Then Sardinia or Cyprus.
Since we agreed that Kriçi tribe was predominantly J2-M205>Y22059*, and since we know based on many tests that current TMRCA of all Y22059 is around 1200 years so that is like 300 or 400 years prior to Kriçi tribe we assume that our MRCA lived somewhere around Montenegro, and that one of brotherhoods later formed Kriçi tribe.

Going geographically, our ancestor was for sure Latin speaker and prior to that Semitic. Also looks like Kriçi were part of larger Mataruge population so again they were for sure Latin speakers.
After Slavicization most of them identified with Serbs. Going by Ottoman census, Kriçi have Slavic names first time in 15 century.

Going by SNPs and STRs, our closest matches except ourselves (1200 years TMRCA) are in Middle East and not Greece or South Albania.
Our first matches are in Palestine, Qatar, Jordan, then second wave goes Palestine and Qatar again.

They are 4800 years away tho. and we have only 1200 years TMRCA. So anyone can fill the vacuum. In future we might find haplotype that will fall into our branch but with higher separation, he might be Greek, but looks like Palestine, Lebanon and Jordan are best places to look for so far. Also its possible that our closer matches vanished in bottleneck, which would again leave Middle Eastern ones as our closest ones.

Unfortunately we could not confirm J2b1-M205 at Minoans who were J2a mostly. Looks like most of J2b-M205 spread in Balkan with Phoenicians and Romans, and perhaps some clades with Byzantines like specifically our clade looking at all the evidence so far.


Also note about these Vlach groups connected with Greece, that there was already major study on Balkan Vlachs and only one had J2b1, he is from South Albania, and he is not connected to our branch but rather some South Albanian - Greek branch.
We cannot know who was shepherd or not, but we can know that we were Latin speakers with Levantine origin arrived in Balkan. Most likely in Roman times. New Ancient DNA find can change all this but so far it looks just like that.

 

[Mercurial]

Greetings Dema, yeah, I don't doubt the Levant hypothesis. I am just not certain how are you so sure our forebears spoke Latin and not Greek? They may have spoken Latin for a certain time, when the Roman Empire was whole, but after the separation, Byzantium/East Roman Empire took up Greek as an official language, so that must have been the case in Levant. Or am I wrong here? Krici may have been Latin speakers, but they were much closer to the West Roman Empire border. I am talking about the time in Levant, they surely spoke Semitic, then Latin for a few hundred years, and then Greek for few hundred years during the Byzantium, and only after migration into Balkans adopted the regional languages? I think this hypothesis has good grounding. I am not claiming J2b1 is Greek or anything like that, just that many of our forebears spoke Greek at some point. I am also very curious as to weather there have been any Y haplogroup studies done on Sarakatsani?

 

[Dema]

Greetings Dema, yeah, I don't doubt the Levant hypothesis. I am just not certain how are you so sure our forebears spoke Latin and not Greek? They may have spoken Latin for a certain time, when the Roman Empire was whole, but after the separation, Byzantium/East Roman Empire took up Greek as an official language, so that must have been the case in Levant. Or am I wrong here? Krici may have been Latin speakers, but they were much closer to the West Roman Empire border. I am talking about the time in Levant, they surely spoke Semitic, then Latin for a few hundred years, and then Greek for few hundred years during the Byzantium, and only after migration into Balkans adopted the regional languages? I think this hypothesis has good grounding. I am not claiming J2b1 is Greek or anything like that, just that many of our forebears spoke Greek at some point. I am also very curious as to weather there have been any Y haplogroup studies done on Sarakatsani?

Because all of us tested with Y-111 plus, so far have TMRCA around 1200 years, and we have tribe identified with this haplogroup that is dating 900 years back in northern Montenegro. They were Latin speakers. Based on that we assume that our MRCA who lived 1200 years ago also lived nearby or in Montenegro region. More south are Albanians on mountains, they were also under Latin influence.

We cannot identify this branch in Greekophone areas. There is other J2b1 branches more South in Albania and Greece and we dont know almost anything about them or where they belong since none of them did more serious tests.

I dont know about Y-dna studies on Sarakatsani, they were not included in this Vlach Latin speaking Balkan groups in Bosch et al.
Byzantine hypothesis is based mostly on TMRCA. We actually dont know how long are we in Balkan. Byzantine time is minimum.


For what we can conclude so far is that you are much closely related to Latin speaking Kriçi tribe then Greek speaking Sarakatsani ethnic group. Even tho i dont know your precise results but i assume that you are Y22059+ and that your haplotype is not far away from modal haplotype.

My best regards

 

[Dema]

There has been some important update on Yfull, it seems they fixed important glitch were some results would have extremely low acceptance of valid SNPs that would be considered into a TMRCA calculation.
As a result of this fix, some samples like myself but also some other samples and branch TMRCAs changed, into more accurate one for sure.

Now when looking at Y22063, we can see that instead of 1 accepted SNP, now i have 5.2 calculated TMRCA SNPs, and by my line TMRCA of Y22063 is 840 years.
I think this is much closer to reality, and it should be perhaps 50 - 150 years higher but i am happy even with this, because previous calculation was very wrong.
Novakovic has 6.8 SNPs, and Batocanin 3.2. As it looks now, it seems that Batocanin result is actually bringing TMRCA down as it should for sure be at least 1000 years.

These changes of mostly my results also upped the Y22059+ general TMRCA to 1100 years.

We can see same thing happened also in one of main Albanian R1b branches where Greek sample now has 7 SNPs accepted instead of 1 before (same like me), so as a result of that change TMRCA of entire group went up from 1000 to 1200 years - https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2705/


I would also like to say that there is 6 Albanians so far identified with J2b1-M205. Two from public researches, two from 23andme, and two from Albanian Bloodlines Project
Where we have at least 3 different branches among them, and one of them has DYS388 12 which is very unique and interesting variation, he can be whole separate branch.


EDIT: There is also new sample from Serbia added to Yfull (YF14966), his result has not yet been accepted into TMRCA calculation. We will see how will he change TMRCA after his novel SNPs are accepted.

 

[dyusupova]

hello Dema,yes you are right it is MtDNA , but my paternal DNA even more confusing it is J-L24. have you heard anything about that haplogroup. Sincerely

Dora

 

[Dema]

hello Dema,yes you are right it is MtDNA , but my paternal DNA even more confusing it is J-L24. have you heard anything about that haplogroup. Sincerely

Dora

Hi Dora, i have not heard something specific about it but i haven't yet explored many lines and so far none of J2a lines, where your paternal line also falls in.

J2a, and J2b split from the same father 27 800 years ago, according to Yfull. J2a diversified since Mesolithic and each subclade needs to be looked at specifically.
Maciamo says: J2a1-L24 is the most widespread subclade of J2a, with a distribution ranging from the Middle East to Europe, North Africa and South Asia.
(I guess you father falls in some Middle Eastern branch?)

In Yfull i see some similarities with J2b1.

You can see it here in Yfull: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L24/ so its J2a-M410>L24>?
It has many branches, now it depends where your paternal line falls in. It would be best to do at least 67 marker test (in FTDNA?) to try to identify more precise subclade and Y-DNA relatives if there is any.


Best regards, Dema.

 

[Dema]

EDIT: There is also new sample from Serbia added to Yfull (YF14966), his result has not yet been accepted into TMRCA calculation. We will see how will he change TMRCA after his novel SNPs are accepted.

I see that his SNPs have been accepted by Yfull calculation today, he has below average number of novel SNPs under Y22059*, TMRCA by his line is 860 years, as a result of that TMRCA of Y22059* went down from 1100 to 1000 years.
And since he is Y22063 negative, TMRCA of Y22063 remained unchanged - 800 years.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y22059/

 

[Lenab]

Deretić is right for origin of word vlach. Vlachs = Slavic sheperds which celebtated Slavic god Veles. VELES = VLACHS.

Romanians are mix of vulgar Latin speaking imigrants from Epirus, Thessaly, Macedonia and Bulgaria which arrived to modern Romania from 12th to 14th century, and Slavs which lived in modern Romania since early middle age, plus minor Turkic influence (from Cumans, Pechenegs and Tatars).
Vlachs from eastern Serbia are originally Rumâni, they adopted Slavic name Vlachs from Serbs in the last 100-150 years.
Majority of Latin speaking population of Epirus, southern Albania, Theassaly and Macedonia always call themselves Rramâni and Armâni, and never Vlachs.
Megleno-Vlachs are only Latin speaking Balkanites which call themselves Vlachs, because they were under strong Slavic influence and they adopted Slavic word Vlachs for ethnic name. Megleno-Vlachs were always farmers, unlike other Latin speaking Balkanites which were semi-nomadic sheperds, that is also Slavic legacy among Megleno-Vlachs.

Vast majority of people which call themselves Vlachs in the middle age were genetically Slavic and Slavic speakers. Vlachs = Slavic sheperd caste (name originated from slavic god Veles).

You speak of South Romanians regarding the Vlach.

 

[Dema]

You speak of South Romanians regarding the Vlach.

Regarding Vlachs there was already major Y-DNA study about Aromuns/Vlachs in Balkan, Bosch et al 2006.

They tested Albanians, Greeks, Macedonians, Romanians from Constanta, Romanians from Ploiesti, Aromuns from Dukasi in Albania, Aromuns from Andon Poci in Albania, Aromuns from Krusevo in Macedonia, Aromuns from the Stip region in Macedonia and Aromuns from Romania.

The only two J2-M205 samples from this study were found in Albania. One at Aromun in Andon Poçi and another one at Albanian in Tirana. So at least from year 2006 we know there is J2-M205 presence at Albanians in Tirana.


We cannot classify J2-M205 as "Vlach haplogroup", even tho some clades were obviously Latinized. My best educated guess based on Ancient DNA, TMRCA and distribution would be that most of J2-M205 clades spread into the Europe with Canaanites like Phoenicians (confirmed by aDNA) and later Romans (also confirmed by aDNA). Therefore its normal we find it in all Mediterranean populations.


J2-M205 is Mediterranean and Middle Eastern haplogroup.


J2-M205>CTS1969>PH4306>Y22059, having two brother clades in Palestine and also Sardinia, England and Spain shows high possibility of being of Phoenician migration or later Roman one from territories of once ancient Phoenicia.

There is also Qatar samples more upstream of Y22059 but downstream of Palestine sample with TMRCA 1600 years. I would guess that they are also migrants with origin from Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan or surrounding areas.

I will comment soon more about J2-M205, there is also J-Y45447 branch much clearer now, a branch that extended south to Oman and Yemen, and perhaps also with more distant origin (1000 BCE) from direction of Saudi Arabia and prior to that more north Lebanon, Palestine and surrounding areas.

 

[Dema]

I would like to address this post to some of my previous theories, primarily to the one regarding the branch where i also fall in, J2-M205>Y22059 so known "Balkan branch" and Byzantine theory. I was focused too much only on TMRCA before when i made this Byzantine arrival theory.
Also i didnt have experience in observing various clades as i do now. Major mistake i made was that i only focused on TMRCA as main indicator of time of arrival which is wrong, and i didnt look at other facts like closest relatives which could actually more then TMRCA indicate the time of separation and arrival.

Futhermore observing our autosomal tests, but also closest Y-dna relatives which are as we know in Qatar, Palestine, Sicily, Sardinia, England, France and so on.. But also potentially Albania, Italy, Greece, Cyprus but J2-M205 is not yet properly explored among them so we are expecting new discoveries in future.

Therefore as Balkan branch J2-M205>CTS1969>PH4306>Y22059 has first wave of relatives dispersed mostly around Mediterranean sea, being far as 4900 ybp. Brings me to the conclusion that this clade might have also spread with some sea people just as its brother clades from East Mediterranean all the way to England primarily falling into CTS1969. Having Sidonian 1700 BCE confirmed ancient DNA, Phoenicians are best candidates.


Trivial video:

 

[Dema]

Just went thru research of about 500 Lebanon samples, found seven J2-M205 samples which would be about 1.4 per cent. There is more then one branch found but i haven't yet analyse STRs.
This is solid number of tested people so i would conclude that average number of M205 among Lebanese people is from 1 to 2 per cent.

This contradicts researches that try to take false conclusions like this one tried: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-25912-9
Saying : "No J2b-M12 carriers were found among 35 modern Lebanese, as contrasted to one of two ancient specimens from the same region"

Got a love these "researchers" that try to deny M205 in Lebanese people when they tested only 35 samples and they bring conclusions based on that, lol.
As we see J2-M205 is found 1 - 2 % in Lebanon, so they would need at least 100 people to perhaps catch a sample or even two if they are lucky.

Also went thru Italians and seems J2-M205 is present there also in multiple branches from North to South (incl Sardinia).
Among Greeks i managed to find only one sample but we know from other studies that it has strong presence in Greece also.

One more interesting thing, we just got J2-M205 sample into our Albanian project.
From Eqrem Cаbej relative, he is confirmed J2-M205 and we will see about the branch where he falls in, i would call it so far South Albanian M205 branch as its represented there and we actually have it in 4 samples so far from South Albania.

Eqrem Çabej (6 August 1908 – 13 August 1980) was an Albanian historical linguist and scholar who, through the publication of numerous studies gained a reputation as a key expert in the research into Albanian-language, literature, ethnology and linguistics.

 

[Gash]

How related to you are those branches in South Albania ? very interesting.

 

[Dema]

How related to you are those branches in South Albania ? very interesting.

I dont know, we never had a chance to further test Albanian M205 samples as they are pretty rare and hard to find.
We know about Italian, Greek, Cyprus samples but also none of them has also done any SNP test or serious testing, its usually up to 37 markers with no SNP tests.
So no one knows where they fall in.

Both South Albanian branches are being upgraded to CTS1969 SNP then we see after that.
If they are positive to CTS1969 then under that highest chances are YP13 or Y22075:

They will most likely be some kind of brother clade to us. But there is really multiple possibilities.

 

[Gash]

Ok. Very interesting. Cool to see another Albo test J2b1 and that a Cabej. Will keep myself updated on this.

 

[Dema]

Regarding M205 at Albanians,

Very interesting, our both branches from South Albania turned out to be CTS1969 negative.
Looks like M205 has high diversity in Mediterranean Sea and simply there is many branches that dont have relatives within thousands of years, rather then all of us belonging to same branch.

So, one of our South Albanian branches has been already identified in Greece with SNP test CTS1969-, so we could have knew that one of these will be CTS1969 negative but its also always good to double check.
Looks like a small branch so far, one Greek from Greece, one Albanian from South, one Aromun from South Albania, and one Sicilian are falling into this cluster of J2-M205.

While into our another South Albanian branch we have 4 Tosks from South Albania, where Cabej also falls in.

Its worth to mention there is also third still unidentified M205 branch with high diversity in Tirana in Albania but we didnt manage yet to get any of these in our project.

And i fall into our fourth branch, where i still dont have anyone closer then about 800 - 1000 years. And i share same TMRCA with all samples who are under Y22059/Y22066 within range of about 1000 - 1200 years.
As this group was native Montenegrin, today its partially slavicized and mostly found among Serbs.
But our both Albanian 23andme samples, one from Central Albania and one from Montenegro have high chances to fall into this group.
Also we have Greek and Italian samples falling into this group.

 

[Mercurial]

Thanks for new inputs Dema! I swear I read earlier that there were already samples found in Levant of m205. I don't know where you read that it cannot be found. Still, 1-2% is still too small of a percentage. Anyways, I got some tiny amount of new info on my sample. They tested me only for 17 markers, but I don't have all the markers. I only know SNP 385ab has a value 16-20. I fall under Y22059/Y22066, and probably Y22063+. The study I was referring to earlier is still not published or done... and it's been almost 3-4 years. They are really slacking it seems : )

 

[Dema]

Thanks for new inputs Dema! I swear I read earlier that there were already samples found in Levant of m205. I don't know where you read that it cannot be found. Still, 1-2% is still too small of a percentage.

No problem, its fun to explore M205.

Its found in entire Middle East, with much smaller percentage in modern Israel then in their surrounding neighbors. I am currently in depth exploring M205 and i will have much more info in future.
1 - 2 % in Lebanon is not small percentage but excellent percentage. As that is average percentage so far for J2b-M205 in Middle East and Mediterranean Sea , with Cyprus being highest 5.9 % and our clade Y22059 had solid founder effect expanding to 1-3 % on some specific areas.

Anyways, I got some tiny amount of new info on my sample. They tested me only for 17 markers, but I don't have all the markers. I only know SNP 385ab has a value 16-20. I fall under Y22059/Y22066, and probably Y22063+. The study I was referring to earlier is still not published or done... and it's been almost 3-4 years. They are really slacking it seems : )

Looks like they got results long ago but its taking them ages to analyse results and bring some conclusion they want to bring.. Do you know what is study name?

STR value DYS385ab 16-20 is not that common as you can see in J2-M172 project. Closest to that am i with DYS385ab 16-19 and Bulgars with value 15-20.

Regarding our branch Y22059 - https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y22059/, its clear that all samples downstream of Y22059 share same TMRCA - 1000 years, currently by Yfull.
So no matter are you Y22063 or Kriçi clade for example that is Y22063- (negative), we all share same ancestor (Y22059) who lived probably around 1200 years ago (1000 by Yfull so far).

For example looks like i specifically separated from rest of Y22059 about 800 - 1000 years ago, but that is also time when our MRCA lived (most recent common ancestor).
Therefore even tho i dont have anyone closer then 800 - 1000 years, all of us who are Y22059 arrived from the same place and from a same brotherhood or person 1000 - 1200 years ago.

As Kriçi tribe is recorded in 12 century in Montenegro and they share this SNP, i have chosen Montenegro for being a place of our primary expansion and possibly further more distant origin.

 

[Mercurial]

I don't know, but SANU (Serbian academy of science and arts) is doing the research... and trough some internal info m205 seems to be abundant from Trgovište to Svrljig. I know we share common ancestor. I don't know why you pointed that out. It's possible that Montenegro is the origin, but who knows. I know that in the 15th, 16th century, my ancestors were still in south of Serbia, specifically Novo Selo, we carry a nickname of sorts "Novoselci", or people who came from Novo Selo. It is possible that some of our ancestors adopted Bogomilism and were therefore expelled to Bosnia where they branched out. I don't know the timeline of Bosnian samples... It's a possibility still, I'd like to hear your thoughts.

 

[Dema]

I don't know, but SANU (Serbian academy of science and arts) is doing the research... and trough some internal info m205 seems to be abundant from Trgovište to Svrljig. I know we share common ancestor. I don't know why you pointed that out. It's possible that Montenegro is the origin, but who knows. I know that in the 15th, 16th century, my ancestors were still in south of Serbia, specifically Novo Selo, we carry a nickname of sorts "Novoselci", or people who came from Novo Selo. It is possible that some of our ancestors adopted Bogomilism and were therefore expelled to Bosnia where they branched out. I don't know the timeline of Bosnian samples... It's a possibility still, I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Because some other people seemed not to understand this, i am sorry if i stated the obvious : )


With this SNP Y22059 you can assume history 1200 years back, probably Montenegrin origin. For more recent and detailed history you first need to compare all of your 17 markers from that research with other Y22059 samples and see do you maybe have some recent closer match.
For example if you match 15/17 markers with someone and these two are faster mutating markers its possible that you guys could form TMRCA of 500 years or so or even you could get 17/17 match, then you could potentially know more recent history by analyzing the guy you split from lets say 500 or 300 years ago.

It will be hard to bring such conclusions only on 17 markers. I would say 37 is minimum so you can be sure of somewhat accurate distance. Even 67 or 111 is recommended.

It all depends on your closest matches and how far are they. When research will be published let me know, i would like to take a look at it.