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Hello Kwyjibo78,Originally Posted by Kwyjibo78
Glad to see another Y H2 P-96 in the UK, There is not a great deal of information about this as it is a rare Haplogroup and its origins are confusing in my opinion, as you will gather from looking on this forum.
Eupedia is a good source of information but we will have to await developments. Have a look on the FTDNA Y H, site and the FTDNA Haplotree, for more information.
I think over the next few years things should become a lot clearer regarding how it got to the UK, and when, as Genetics is taking off in a big way, also with so many ancient sources being re-tested, and more people today taking DNA tests. Its just a matter of time before the major jigsaw pieces are fitted correctly.
regards Paul.
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Hi Kwyjibo78, I'm H-p96 too. The origins of my male line are a little confused (due to conflicting information on census records) but Gloucestershire is a strong possibility. Hopefully, at some point we'll be able to see how distantly we are all related.
Hm, pretty interesting
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There is a 'SNP Tracker' tool now available regarding the FTDNA Y results.
I put all the Y H2 P.96 downstream subclades, that are showing on the FTDNA Y H2 haplotree branch, and all with one exception indicated a location connection with Sweden during the Neolithic/Bronze age's. It also confirmed P96 itself, was ancestral to descendant movements to the same area,s
The only exception was with one of two Armenian Y H2 references, one with H2 Z15373, indicated a medieval result in Turkey/Anatolia area, but the other also indicating an older presence in the same area Z19080, but did also show descendants to Sweden.
There were 15, Y H2 with downstream subclades to H2 P.96, and '14' were all linked to or from Sweden', with only 1 ( Armenian 'medieval', H2b1, with snp Z15373 ) with no link.
All the other Y H2 entries, shared a link/connection to Sweden during the Neolithic/Bronze age's, with the main linking snp being SK1182. The information also shows descendants from this location spreading further into Europe from Sweden.
In using this tool it is indicating a route into the UK, and other European countries as far North with Neolithic Sweden, of the Y H2 haplogroup, from at least the Late Neolithic and Bronze age, as the following and others show. H2 BY37186, H2 BY37188, and H2 Y21630.
If this new information can be confirmed, it shows that Y H2, was present during the, Funnel beaker culture, Battle Axe culture, and the Nordic Bronze age culture periods, in Sweden, and Spread from there to parts of wider Europe, and beyond, reaching the UK, at least during the early medieval period.
If this information is confirmed, it would also reflect my autosomal results, which indicated Scandinavian, and Finnish Ancestry, along side with the Netherlands. ( Netherlands, was later turned to German/French )
Incidently I put in another Positive SNP ( Y H2 M9313 ) that is indicating a downstream subclade of Y H2a1, but this came up as a differing haplogroup completely 'I2a2a - L801' through to CTS1977, and Y5282, but supprisingly also showing the same area's of the Nordic Bronze Age (1700-500 BC ).??
Last edited by paul333; 06-05-19 at 15:51.
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If using the SNP Tracker, there is two, and the one I feel was more informative, and easier to understand is the one from Robert Spencer. SNP Tracker - Scaled Innovation.
Last edited by paul333; 02-05-19 at 12:50.
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Is it possible Y H2 could be the Haplogroup of the early Angles, even the famous Wuffingas of Sutton Hoo, East Anglia, descended from the Scyldings, Geats and Swedes of Vastergotland, Uppsala and Vendel etc of Sweden.
Wishfull thinking, but a recent set of Information now available is seemingly confirming a movement from a Swedish Ancestral Homeland, to the UK during the early Anglo-Saxon Migration period, of the 5th/6th centuries. The Y H2 SNP, FGC31857 and BY37188, are showing an ancestral descent from locations in Sweden, via Y H2 SK1182, through the continent, Y H2 21630, to England arriving 1700-1500 years before the present, ie living in UK from at least around the year AD 300-500.
The SNP information shows for the first time Y H2 in the UK and where it originally came from.
The SNP path clearly shows that Y H2 was in the UK. The Roman period ( FGC31857 ), 1,700,years ago could possibly relate to the early references to Germanic Roman Feoderatie, in the UK, or a presence during the very early Anglo-Saxon Migration period to the UK, supported by the other 1,500 years ago ( BY37188 ).
Food for thought.
This information is looking as though it will be correct, and will raise a lot of questions about its earlier Haplogroup identification.?
Last edited by paul333; 04-05-19 at 15:36.
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Further Y H2 Confusion.
A recent report on Mesolithic remains in Norway,( PLOS, pub 9th Jan 2018 ) regarding two separate area's of excavation at, Steigen in the North of Norway, and Hummervikholmen, in the South of Norway, indicated that Y DNA findings from these are possible ancestral to CTS1977, Y I2a2a1b2a1, as I understand.
In my living Y DNA results I am showing positive for SNP M9313. The SNP Tracker is indicating M9313, is also representing Haplogroup Y CTS 1977, Y 'I2a2a1b2a1', Yet SNP M9313 is also seemingly referencing Y H2a1,on ISOGG 2019 Y DNA, also ??, can a SNP represent two entirely separate and completely different Y Haplogroups ?.
There is also a reference for the SNP M9313, on the YFull Tree SNP reference for haplogroup N, at N-F2905, age formed 18000 ybp, and mainly ancestral origins to Chinese, Z3754/Z4933/M9313, with only one European reference relating to Poland, N Y-15965. ? with TMRCA 550ybp. I entered this SNP Y 15965, into the SNP Tracker, and it showed up in Paleolithic 'Sweden ' to L-735 ??.
So far the SNP M9313 is associated with three separate 'Y' Haplogroups, Y-H2a1, I-2a2a1b2a1, and N.
All the above M9313 SNP associates are connected, by indicating, and including an early location, to Northern Europe, and Sweden.
There is yet another SNP M9313, reference, to haplogroup Y D1b, under the M64 grouping, associated with a location in Neolithic, China, ( ISOGG 2019 this indicates a next-generation sequencing entry, that does not yet match the quality guidlines for the minimum number of reads ).
In trying to find out how Y H2 P96, got to the UK, Im finding more confusing information, that is not reflecting a route from the Indian associated area's where its earlier traditional origins were believed to have came from. Is Y H2 the correct identity ?? the more I look the more confusion I find, what is going on with the SNP M9313, attachment to Y H2, etc ??.
Last edited by paul333; 08-05-19 at 14:50.
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From the last SNP Tracker update regarding using FTDNA Y H2 subclade, snps etc, ( 10 May 2019 ).
The SNP Tracker tool, has updated/removed much of the information that I mentioned above, it seems he is being further advised, or has received further new updated information.
The modern references regarding the Y H2 downstream entries from FTDNA that earlier showed a more Northern reach into the Baltic/Scandinavian area's have now been removed completely, and re-aligned further South it seems.
The Y H2a1 defining SNP 'M9313' refered to, is still showing on the SNP Tracker as Haplogroup I2a2a down to I-S8522, but includes the SNP,Y5282 reaching area's of England.
The SNP M9313 is also possibly indicating a terminal SNP for Y H2a1, can it do this. ??.
As the Y H2 SNP P96 is defining the Y H2, haplogroup, and SNP M9313 is seemingly defining a further possible terminal downstream Y H2 subclade of Y H2a1, on positive raw data, could one of these be what are called a 'False positive'.
The same SNP M9313 is showing a Haplogroup of I2a2a, using the SNP Tracker tool. The Eupedia I2a2a Tree shows its path from L801, to Y 5282.
On this same L801 tree branch there is also showing a downstream SNP very close to P96, being 'P95'. This P95, falls further down the same branch of the I2a2a tree as defined by 'SNP M9313'. 'I' P95, having also descended downstream from Y5282, with historic connections in and out of England, to its current position on the SNP Tracker tool in the area of Germany,during the Roman Period.
Is this just a co-incidence ? SNPs, M9313, P95 and P96 all connected ??
The separate SNPs basically also follow the same descendant route, to the same North West European areas.
All the above including the Y H2 P96 SNPs descend downstream from the 'F-M89 marker, within the Middle East area. There is no journey to India,of the SNP P 96, the traditional informed path. The SNP M282 also defining Y H2 P96 is also showing a descendant path to the same North West European area's.
Is Y H2 P96 correctly identified, and which is my terminal SNP is it P96, or M9313. Is it possible for SNP M9313 to represent two or more separate individual Y Haplogroups ?.
Is Y H2 P96, really descended from L901, or is there two very separate and individual splits from F-M89, namely L901,and P96, each with their separate ways L901 to the East, P96 to the North West. ??.
I also have positive markers for Haplogroup HIJK, under SNP F929, and GHIJK under SNP CTS2254. these are after the F-M89 split, and does P 96 come from F-M89, or HIJK.?
This is more confusing the more I learn about Y H2, I have to question everything about it, as my Autosomal, is conflicting with what I am being informed, by two separate companies, both informing 100% European.
Living DNA, 100% European,with 100% British and Irish.
23 & Me 100% European, with 98.3% North West European, the rest 1.7% split between Broadley European '0.5'%, Southern European, Spanish & Portuguese 0.02%, and Broadly Southern European 1.0%.
23 & Me also informs regarding the Northern Area,s of Europe, my results are showing recent ancestry from the Baltic, Finnland, Scandinavia, and'Netherlands', (later changed to France and Germany), etc, but nothing outside of Europe.
With no evidential connections to India whatsoever , despite at times being informed my Paternal Haplogroup Y H2 P96 is originally from India via SNP L901, what little the evidence I do find, is clearly disputing this, especially the more recent evidence I come across.
Is Y H2 P96 descended from L901, or is it splitting direct from F M89?. Is it defined correctly as Y 'H' as its previous identity and history have been re-assigned a number of times!.
Y H2 P96 is becoming a very difficult Haplogroup to understand, and no body seems to have any answer's regarding 'is its present position its true correct position' ?. It is European, but not mentioned or regarded as such, even despite this being described as one of the earliest European Haplogroups, by the founder of this forum.
Paying for further testing for further information would seem pointless at the moment, so its a waiting game only, but very frustrating
help.
Last edited by paul333; 28-05-19 at 13:59. Reason: additional information
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This information regarding the SNPs above, along with other post information, indicating a possible more Northern link to the Scandinavian/Swedish area's has also been re-assigned,by the SNP Tracker tool , somebody it seems is trying to dissprove any evidence of Y H2 reaching the area's previously shown, and mentioned, such as SK1182,etc, in my other posts.
The SNP SK1182, was clearly shown as Ancestral to Y21630, BY37186, and BY37188 in ( Yellow ) medieval England, via its Location from around West and East Gotland.
The SNPs above have been edited to now only show Y H2 only reached as far North as the Netherlands, England, and German area's only. I do not know why they are removed, or changed but it is also adding further confusion, trying to find any genuine connections regarding this Y H2 haplogroup further North, which despite the removals, showed at one time the largest group of Y H2 in one country, and that country was Sweden, some dating back into the 1600s, but now completely missing.
Why is this information being removed when it could help locate the historic journeys of some Y H2, and other Haplogroups. I was aware of a comment from a Swedish forum that did have some Y H2 that they had to remove the Y DNA DATA due to new EEC Data protection laws, but is this also the case elsewhere. ??.
30th May 2019, SNP Tracker update, 'Y H-BY37188', is now showing, an earlier Iron Age ( green )connection/location in the North West of England, descended from H BY37186, now located in East Anglia, during the Bronze or Neolithic periods, ( blue ).
Think I will leave it ( SNP Tracker tool )for a while, as its becoming so confusing with so many changes occurring, Im confusing my posts, and myself.
Last edited by paul333; 30-05-19 at 13:55.
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I wouldn't take the SNP trackers literally, they are basing themselves off of averages, and especially the timing of SNPs on the tracker are dependent on outside sources like YFull, FTDNA and others. They are more like best guesses with the info available, which changes quite quickly as new data comes in.
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Thanks for the reply, I did noticed the quick changes... lol, but its still frustrating having this Y Haplogroup, its now just a waiting game for reliable information.
As far as reaching Europe, I'm still basically stuck in stone age middle east, with my Y H2 P96 at the moment, with lots of associated leads seeminly heading in the right direction, and hopefully to, todays UK.
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I certainly understand the frustration of having a haplogroup or at least a haplotype that is not the most common. My own haplogroup (well the basal paragroup), while a bit more common than yours my specific haplotype used to be a rather uncommon haplotype until more and more people began testing.
I think as more and more people become interested in genetic testing we'll see more data roll in, preferably for rarer haplogroups.
I seem to recall they found an H2 sample in the Levant dated to 10,000 years old, followed by an H2 in Neolithic Anatolia and in Neolithic Hungary (two H2 individuals from Starčevo), and H2 in Neolithic Iberia in La Mina.
So H2 was certainly present in Europe fairly early, just worth investigation determining how it ended up in the UK.
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Thanks for the reply,
Y H2 is certainly referenced throughout early Europe, and reached into most area's of Mesolithic Europe, around 9000-7000 BCE, referencing Maciamo's Nov 2015 map on Eupedia.
The problem I have, is moving downstream from my, SNP P96,which currectly has me stuck in the Paleolithic Anatolian area's. I have no further downstream subclade confirmed for me yet, so I'm well and truly stuck with a large period gap with P96, well outside of Europe for now.
There is a further positive SNP, that I and another Y H2 lad in the UK have,( M9313) that may move it further, as it is being associated with a downstream subclade to H2a1, but then again this might be a false hope as it is also referenced to other Y Haplogroups.
I am hoping that more information comes in before the end of the year, if not I'm looking to test further in an attempt to find any possible downstream route or information.
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Is your terminal SNP really P96? Have you done Big Y or any NGS testing? I'm not sure if YSEQ has any SNP packs available for H2, but they might.
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Both 23 & Me, and Living DNA, inform me my Y Haplogroup is Y H2 'P96', and thats the limit of the information. It had been changed from F* F then F3, to Y H2 in 2014, and some comments on the forums reckon it might be re-assigned again, but at the moment Im stuck.
Regarding other information I received access to my raw data. LivingDNA raw data has 199 Positive Y Snps, with seven Mtdna positive Snps.
23 & Me raw data is very difficult for me to understand, and Im trying to figure out what they all mean, as they just represent loads of numbers etc all jumbled, but they also confirmed Y H2 with P96 as my terminal SNP.
Another Lad with Y H2,in the UK, informed me if I have a positive SNP M9313 with my LivingDNA raw data, it represents a downstream subclade of Y H2a1, he said Living DNA had overlooked it, so Im waiting for news regarding confirming this, if confirmed it would be my terminal SNP, rather than the 'P96', at present, but when I put it in SNP Tracker etc it comes up with Y I2a2a L801etc into the UK, so im not sure where it will lead ? Although when I put P96 descendants in the Tracker it shows the basic same route as the I2a2a journeys into Europe. I Just have to wait a bit longer to see developments.
The good thing is a few more Y H2 have surfaced in the UK recently.
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I looked for M9313 on Ybrowse and it belongs to H-SK1190, which is called H-Y19962 on YFull. There is also this thread here about it. H-Y19962 split from H-Y21618 about 16,000 years ago and it has a TMRCA at 6000 years ago, judging by ancient samples H2 definitely has a Neolithic origin in Europe, and the estimated TMRCA for the H-Y19962 subclade fits that pretty well.
I suspect it will take some time to acquire more information on H2. It will happen, it may just take awhile, especially considering its rarity (compared to R1b or others in Europe).
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I also found this via Phylogeographer: https://phylogeographer.com/ancient-dna-viewer/?H
A fair number of H-P96 in Neolithic (and older) samples in prehistoric Europe. The map is set for both H1 and H2 ancient samples.
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Thanks,
Just hope its not another 6,000 yrs ..lol
One 'problem' that I have with P 96, is that it is also associated with the first Europeans. Maciamo when writing about the Genetics of the British Isle etc, on this forum, actually informs it is likely that P-96 came into Europe with the first 'Human Migrations into Europe' and linked it to the development of the Aurigation Culture, (the Paleolithic/stone age periods).
This means that it was likely to of been here in Europe long before the Farmers arrived, and suggests at least two separate migatory groups for P 96, thousands of years apart, ? and which is the correct age and route my 'Y' ancestor took into Europe, and from there into England ?.
Last edited by paul333; 10-06-19 at 17:58.
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This may be of interest. There is a site called atlasdna which lists the frequency of Y DNA Haplogroups by country. The country with the highest occurance of H2 is Bangladesh with 0.9%.
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Thanks for the information TJSMCR.
I tried to look on the site but cannot get any information about Y H2. There is a reference to the site using the' ISOGG Haplogroup Naming of 2012, and at the botton of some pages I managed to access, the reference indicates last update was 7/20/2010, next update expected 1/1/2020.
Y H2 was known as F or F3 untill 2013/2014, and I think Y H2 would refer to a possible different Y H Haplogroup subclade or grouping prior to the changes of 2013/14.
We need to find out more, to confirm that it is actually referring to the P 96, subclade
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I would have posted the link but I need to have 10 posts before I'm allowed to post links to the forum. I agree that it would be very useful to know how close their H2 is to our H-p96.
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I was going to look on the ISOGG 2019, to look into the changes regarding the Y H haplogroup, but its now suspended ? and unavailable.
As you have the same Mtdna as me and others, check out the Mtdna changes on this site and the on the Y Full M Tree, the Haplogroup subclades have also been changed.
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Just looked on the 2019 ISOGG site and it is back online. There are no Y H2 P96's reported in Bangladesh. The changes that were made to the Y H Haplogroup were dated 24th Feb 2014. The Bangladesh references come under the SNPs Z34618, and Z5876, downstream subclades of Y H1a1a+ etc. Not sure if the. 0.09% you refer to is incorporated.
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Thanks Paul. That's interesting. I'll post the link properly as soon as I can.
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