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Thread: Y-DNA H2 Haplogroup

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    H2 P96
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c3

    Country: UK - England



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    Y-DNA H2 Haplogroup

    Recently tested and given y Haplogroup H2, from North England, Family history confirmed from Yorkshire back to beyond 1700s. I cannot find much about it in Europe, other than it seems to be ancient, and different from the Indian H Y-Haplogroups H1 & H3. There is H2 from Sweden, Switzerland and Northern France etc in Western Europeon, and H Y-Haplogroup maps but not a lot of knowledge regarding how it is found in modern Europe..

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2e1

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Wow !!! H2 .. you are very ancient.

    H2 was regularly found in Neolithic cultures of Europe and the Near East, you can find a list of the samples here
    http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/was...ithicdna.shtml
    http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/eur...ithicdna.shtml

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul333 View Post
    Recently tested and given y Haplogroup H2, from North England, Family history confirmed from Yorkshire back to beyond 1700s. I cannot find much about it in Europe, other than it seems to be ancient, and different from the Indian H Y-Haplogroups H1 & H3. There is H2 from Sweden, Switzerland and Northern France etc in Western Europeon, and H Y-Haplogroup maps but not a lot of knowledge regarding how it is found in modern Europe..
    LBK germany ...early Neolithic
    22.2% are H2 ( ydna )carriers from Derenburg,
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    H2 P96
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c3

    Country: UK - England



    Thanks for the information, Results came via recent living DNA autosomol testing, showing 100% European, 100% Great Britian & Ireland, results of 'cautious' sub related regions, Northumbria 54.3%
    South East England 29.7%
    Orkney Isle 4.4%
    Cornwall 3.2%
    unassigned Gr Britian & Ireland 8.3%

    Now trying to locate the historic route into Britian.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    H2 P96
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c3

    Country: UK - England



    Update regarding Y-H2, another Y-H2 (P96) is now recorded on the Swedish Haplogroup database, from 'Stockholm', Sweden. The the earlier Y-H2 (P96 ) shown on the Y ' H' Haplogroup FTDNA map site, is shown from 'Ostra Herrestad', Sweden, indicating two, possibly unrelated recent individuals now recorded in Sweden.
    Last edited by paul333; 18-01-18 at 20:25. Reason: correction

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    H2 P96
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c3

    Country: UK - England



    Quote Originally Posted by paul333 View Post
    Update regarding Y-H2, another Y-H2 (P96) is now recorded on the Swedish Haplogroup database, from 'Stockholm', Sweden. The the earlier Y-H2 (P96 ) shown on the Y ' H' Haplogroup FTDNA map site, is shown from 'Ostra Herrestad', Sweden, indicating two, possibly unrelated recent individuals now recorded in Sweden.
    There is another further referenced Y H2 on the Swedish reference map at Hammar, Sweden. All three have different surnames, and may represent three separate Y-haplogroups in one country. It is the most I,ve located in one country todate. They are showing throughout Europe but in small numbers and it is difficult to find information about the movements of this Haplogroup in Europe or Eurasia.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    H2 P96
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c3

    Country: UK - England



    Is there any information out there concerning the Y H2,Haplogroup, that can Identify wether this Haplogroup was established or settled in Europe, during, and prior to its association with Northern parts of India, whereby I have been informed it is also found today.


    I am thinking of taking further DNA tests to help, but I'm having a similar problem with my mtDNA, therefore can anyone offer any advice as which other DNA testing company ( other than Living DNA,who I tested with ) would offer the best or most accurate information, for me (Living in the UK). Is it likely that I would gain further knowledge regarding both my Y and Mtdna branches of my DNA, and would I find out anything extra, or would I be completely wasting my money?? I know there are further subclades, and would retesting show these, if I have them, or would they have shown up already, as my results are less than a year old.

    Not much interest in this confusing haplogroup it seems, yet it is supposedly one of the early ancient European haplogroups.

    As you will gather I am new to Genetics/DNA, and any advice would be much appreciated.
    Last edited by paul333; 05-05-18 at 16:11. Reason: additional information

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    https://yfull.com/tree/H/

    H2 should be the H-P96 branch, 48K years old, with the TMRCA for H2 at 16K years ago. Looks like H2 is very rare.

    YFull costs $49 in addition to a DNA test by one of the following companies:

    FTDNA Big Y
    Full Genomes Inc
    YSEQ
    Enlighten
    Veritas Genetics
    BGI
    Novogene
    23mofang
    Dante lab
    WeGene
    Human Longevity, Inc
    Yoogene

    I have no idea which one of those gives you the best value for you money.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    H2 P96
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c3

    Country: UK - England



    Thanks for the reply Expredel, I'm going to look into these, and any others over the next few weeks. My Y H2 is with a positive snp for P96

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    H-P96
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1C3

    Country: UK - England



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Hi Paul, I am H-P96 (H2) too. I also live in the North of England. My male line appears to go back through Manchester, London and possibly to Liverpool at the start of the 19th Century. Tim

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    Country: Romania



    From https://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpH.html

    H2 (formerly F3) P96 is found in Europe. H2 is common in Sardinia.

    Sardinian Italy, Romania, Ukraine, Armenia, Kuwait

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    H2 P96
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c3

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    Quote Originally Posted by TJSMCR View Post
    Hi Paul, I am H-P96 (H2) too. I also live in the North of England. My male line appears to go back through Manchester, London and possibly to Liverpool at the start of the 19th Century. Tim
    Hi Tim,
    Welcome to the forum. Y H2 P96 is a confusing haplogroup to say the least. It is recognised as a very rare, group for Europeans, under the Y H haplogroup, which is mainly South Asian/Indian. H2 P96 was changed from F3 around 2014, and may be re-assigned again as some believe.

    A lot of the data is now dated, Y H2, is not I believe common in Sardinia, it was found there as it has been found in other area's,and the references used are from a number of years ago, the reference regarding the Sardinian Y H2 is referenced as far back as 2007 I believe and may reflect the F3 or now Y H2 p-96, as far as I have found on the net, there was only 1 or 2 confirmed out of a study of a group in the Sardinian population, who were mostly y G2a, I believe. It is thought that Sardinia was an early refuge during the Ice age, and this is given as a reason ancient Y haplogroups survived there, although I may be proved wrong.

    Its European origins are still confusing, as it is believed to of possibly been one of the original European Haplogroups, and it therefor is difficult for me at least to understand its Y H2 position, in the Y H Haplogroup tree, between y H1 and Y H3

    There is a more recent y H haplogroup associated with European a Romany group originating in the Indian area that moved to Europe within the last 1,500 yrs or so, this is a subclade of Y H1, but is a separate and more recent movement not associated with the Y H2 P-96 Haplogroup. Y H2 P-96, has been very anciently associated within Europe, its origins age is given as up to 46,000 yrs, and its European age could be from 43,000 to 37,000, yrs as it is referenced as early as the Aurignacian period of this time frame.

    Visit the 'Y H Ftdna' site to locate others, I think you are the fourth now on this site in the UK today, and your paternal origins apart from London are pretty much the same as mine, ie the Yorkshire/lancashire area's both area's were once Yorkshire untill after the Norman Conquest., My Paternal origins are traced back to the same area's late 1600s early 1700s of Rochdale/Rotherham, which is not far from the Manchester area.

    I also notice you have the same Mtdna as me which is also a co-incidence. Regarding your Y DNA, if you have your raw data check to see if it contains a positive marker for the SNP M9313, as I was informed by another lad who had it further tested that it would mean a further lower subclade of Y H2a1, it is confirmed on the 'SNP Index', but its actual position on the tree is as yet unknown.

    Its great to see these connections.

    Paul.
    Last edited by paul333; 11-01-19 at 22:49.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    H2 P96
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c3

    Country: UK - England



    Quote Originally Posted by TJSMCR View Post
    Hi Paul, I am H-P96 (H2) too. I also live in the North of England. My male line appears to go back through Manchester, London and possibly to Liverpool at the start of the 19th Century. Tim
    Hi Tim,
    I think its very unusual to have two persons with the very same rare Y Dna, alongside having the same identical Mtdna, especially both having a link to a distinct area of the UK. ?.

    I have tested with Living DNA, and Also 23 & Me, both tests confirmed my Haplogroups. Who, or which company did you test with to gain your results, as I'm looking to test further, possibly later this year in order to confirm any lower subclades, but have not yet decided which company.

    Im also wondering if you have any, or know of any family history, especially Paternal ,in any other area's of the UK, as well, as it seems out of four UK Y H2 P96 Known, all have a link to the Northern area's of England.

    Paul.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    H-P96
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1C3

    Country: UK - England



    Hi Paul, Thank you for your help. I was tested by 23 and me. I think our mtDNA group is more common than our YDNA though I'm just getting to grips with DNA. My paternal line goes bak to 1811 to a William Smith. He appears to have moved around alot living in Liverpool and London before moving to Manchester. His birthplace isn't known with any certainty. It differs on the 1851 and 1861 censuses. One shows Liverpool, the other Leckhampton, Gloucestershire. I don't think 23 and me provide any moe information on the Y chromosome other than the group. I'm not sure how to proceed with further testing but am interested to know more, specifically how distantly I am related to the other H-P96 group members in England.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    H2 P96
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c3

    Country: UK - England



    Hi Tim
    Thanks for the reply, I think the four confirmed H-P96 in the UK could be related, its so rare there,s not much accurate recent information about it here, even its origin is troublesome, but over the next few years it should become clearer.

    I believe it was actually believed extinct in the UK, and the North, and North West Europe, where we live, untill the last few years, so it supprised me, and probably a lot of researchers when the results showed up.I first got my Haplogroup results in 2017.

    I had a feeling something was up,I took part in the earlier University of Leicester, search for Viking Ancestry in the North of England, by Turi King and Mark A Jobling as I have a Viking sounding/derived surname, with all four g/grandparents from the same area, but it came back negative for a confirmed Y Haplogroup, this was due to its rarity I understand now.

    As a result Im not sure where my, H P96 and your Y DNA, came from, could of been around for years, stone age, neolithic Farmer, Celt, Roman Soldier, some trader, no idea,..Its a headache at present, but Autosomal Indicates 100% European, and recent 100% ancestors, from around the last 300 years from Britian and Ireland, Germany & France,( earlier Netherlands ) Scandinavia, Finnland, and Iberia, not a lot of help there ..at least its a start.

    All '8' of my Great Grandparents were born in what at that time was County Durham, England, between 1874 and 1888.
    ,
    Regarding your Paternal Line, with William, researching further is also going to be more difficult to trace than normal, due to the popularity of both names William and Smith, and I wish you luck, hopefully genetics will be more helpfull soon. I was stuck for many years tracing a Smith in my family research, I stuck at it and found she was born a Cuthbertson, and had previously been married, so I wish you luck in your research.

    On a further positive note regarding the surname Smith, I had another direct ancestor named Elizabeth Smith who had earlier married William Fairfax the 3rd Vicount Emley. Elizabeth, who died in Essex in 1692 had re-married my ancestor John, and their son, another John, died 1705, produced one of my direct lineages, which was very well documented especially around the York area, so there is hope.

    Regarding more information on the Y DNA, 23 & Me has raw data, but when I downloaded it, I cannot understand it, and Im abit concerned about sending it to find out, or making it too public, untill I fully understand about DNA etc.

    Regarding our MTDNA,H1c3 is common but it further devides into two further Subclades, H1c3a and H1c3b, I am going to try and find a test that could or may confirm if I have a downstream positive marker for any of these, but the Mtdna result I got from LivingDNA has only seven positive snp markers, so its a bit more difficult at present.

    Living DNA gave me 199 Y -Positive SNP markers, and 7 MTDNA markers, that Im trying to figure out about.

    This site is great for finding out about DNA, and the only other information regarding anyone in the UK with Y H2 P96 have been posting on the anthrogenia DNA site.

    Also look on the FTDNA Haplotree, site for the associated countries, and numbers recorded there, it will also give you an idea of the modern Y and MTDNA count, which may be of help.
    Last edited by paul333; 18-01-19 at 22:25.

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    You both, Take a look into my old Y distribution map of the Northwest Iberian corner:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...turleonese.png


    There are two possible H2 strongholds: Aviles and Xixon regions.

    Remember that H2 was known as F3 a few years ago.

    I also know some cases of H2 (confirmed) in Ciudad Real province ( Iberian Peninsula )

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    H2 was found in many Neolithic EEF sites in Europe as well as (its earliest attestation as of now) in the Levant during the very beginning of the agricultural expansion. It probably came as a minority haplogroup together with the Anatolian farmers who colonized Europe and spread agriculture and animal husbandry there. It makes more sense that it was found in the East Mediterranean, both in the Levant and Anatolia, and was carried to Europe, than it had been so widespread since the Paleolithic.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    H2 P96
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c3

    Country: UK - England



    There is a lot of references to 'Ancient' Y H2 P-96 ( ie F* F3 etc ) all over the place. It is the evidence of its journey to the UK,and its more recent movements from prehistory, (ie the last 2,000 yrs or so )that is what I am concerned with here today.

    We know there are many of these 'Ancient' references including those on Eupedia, refering to the many regions it has been located and found in, from Asia, Anatolia, Western Black Sea area's, Iberia, Central Europe, throughout many periods etc, but it is more the recent history especially within the Uk from Europe that needs to be understood.

    At the moment I am looking at entry into the UK from Europe, and hopefully to trace these back as the evidence comes to light. Today there are small groups of Y H2 in the UK, and others in the European area's and it is trying to find a connection and link within these that might help find the answer.

    There are two possible movements of the now Y -H2 H-P96 people, to Europe, one regarding and associated with the very first movements of Homo Sapiens to Europe some 43,000 -37,000 years ago,( did these come from Asia, or direct from Africa ) and then a more recent movement associated with the Farmers some 10,000 - 15,000 yrs or ago did these also come from Asia or the Levant.

    These are the further answers I am seeking, but at the moment I am going to be looking at the UKs Y H2 P96 and its journey from Europe, and do the the UK references descend from one and the same. There is clearly 'two' separate movements of people carrying the same Y DNA of P-96, in Europe it seems, many from movements many thousands of years apart.
    Last edited by paul333; 15-01-19 at 22:27. Reason: correction

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    H2 P96
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpenjager View Post
    You both, Take a look into my old Y distribution map of the Northwest Iberian corner:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...turleonese.png


    There are two possible H2 strongholds: Aviles and Xixon regions.

    Remember that H2 was known as F3 a few years ago.

    I also know some cases of H2 (confirmed) in Ciudad Real province ( Iberian Peninsula )

    Alpenjager
    Thanks for the Map, but it has the Y H2 ( formerly F* F3 etc ) together with the Y 'G' and a y 'H' which is adding confusion. The percentages are combined groupings with the others, and is the Y 'H' refering to Y 'H2' P 96 or another, and as a single recorded instance. It would of been better understood for Y H2, specific, if it was isolated from the others ,but great map anyway, and the areas indicated, are also not too far away from 'Aurignac', which gave rise to the Earliest Europeans and the named culture, 'the Aurignacian' . thanks.
    Last edited by paul333; 13-01-19 at 18:18.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul333 View Post
    There is clearly 'two' separate movements of people carrying the same Y DNA of P-96, in Europe it seems, many from movements many thousands of years apart.
    Why do you say so? What are the evidences you have found for that statement?

    As for H2-P96 being of early Paleolithic origin in Europe I find that very doubtful. Scarcely any DNA ancestry of the first Europeans survived in modern Europeans with so many genetic replacements that took place still during the Paleolithic (the WHG and EHG were very unlike early Europeans like Oase1 and Oase2) and later the huge influx of Anatolian, Caucasian/Iranian and Pontic-Caspian people. The fact H2 was found so commonly in the Neolithic Levant and also in Neolithic Europe suggest to me that the likeliest explanation is that it was a minor EEF lineage. That would also explain its very wide distribution all over Europe in tiny proportions, since the EEF settlement was one of the most extensive and impactful in the last 10,000 years.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    H2 P96
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c3

    Country: UK - England



    Hello Ygorcs

    It is Maciamo Hay, himself on this very site, ( Eupedia Oct 2016 ) when he wrote his opinions refering to the 'Genetic History of the British and Irish'

    Quote - "It is likely that the first Homo Sapiens linked with the development of the Aurignacian culture brought old Haplogroups C-V20 and H-P96, simply because other Haplogroups further down the Pyleogenetic Tree did not exist yet."

    The development of the 'Aurignacian Culture' refers to a period of around 43,000-37,000 years ago,and specific to early modern European humans, EEMH ( European Early Modern Humans ) lasting towards a period of about 33,000 years ago. This period,as I understand, is well before any farmer development in the Levant, and indicates H-P96 was already in existance 'in Europe' at this time, from at least 33,000 years ago.

    This would have to associate them as Hunter gatherers, which survived, or were hereabouts in Europe, during the Last Glacial Maximum, (LGM ) around 21,000 years ago.

    Then there is a much later movement known as the EEF,( Farmers ) that Y H2 is also, associated with begining around 10,000-15,000 years ago from the fertile crescent of the Levant, Unless Y H-P96 backtracked, there has to be two indevidual Journeys of H P96 to Europe Thousands of years apart as of todays knowledge.
    ,
    As far as I understand it Maciamo is one person who is very knowledgeable and his opinions would therefore carry some weight to them regarding study of these Haplogroups.

    His opinion could also even indicate a possibility that, Y 'H P-96' was even here, before the Aurigacian period development, as it was linked with developing/creating that culture.
    Last edited by paul333; 13-01-19 at 18:32.

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    3
    Points: 269, Level: 3
    Level completed: 19%, Points required for next Level: 81
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    H-P96
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1C3

    Country: UK - England



    Hi Paul and Ygorcs.

    Ygorcs, Thank you for sharing the map.

    Paul, You're right about the difficulty in tracing my line. Wiliam Smith born 1811 is very hard to pin down. There were lots of William Smiths born in that year and exactly whic one was my ancesteor is imposssible to know.

    Are there any subdivisions of H-P96 wich could give me more information about my ancestry? I've seen familytreedna do more expensive tests. Would they tell me anything useful? I've also seen the Yfull.com page for haplogroup H. That looks interesting but I'm not sure if the data from 23 and me is usable by them.

    H-P96 is a conundrum. Hopefully, more research will thow some light on it.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Achievements:
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    Points: 1,969, Level: 12
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    H2 P96
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c3

    Country: UK - England



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Hi Tim,

    I find that that the 'ISOGG 2019 Y-DNA Haplogroup tree,' will give you possible further subclades if you can gain or have your 'usable' and understandable raw data download to compare.

    I had used a LivingDNA test, and downloaded the raw data. I was then able to confirm a positive SNP against a downstream Subclade I was informed could be identified. There is a lot of new SNPs being discovered and another possible route is the SNP Index which is OK if you have the understandable SNP raw data to use. Unfortunately 23 & Me have a download for the raw data, that to me is difficult to understand and use, so you might be better trying another company that allows you to access, understand,and compare your own raw data,without the need to pay or upload to other sites.

    I think FTDNA seems to be expensive but by all reports it is good. Other than these, I think we will just have to further await developments,for both ancient, and modern updates, and results to be made available by the companies. The good thing is DNA is developing quite quickly.

    Regarding tracing your 'William Smith' etc, Unless you can get around this by tracing siblings or other family members it might pay you to gain the services of a professional researcher, or Genealogist. I obtained the details of one covering the North East, and used his services many years ago, and it proved well worth it. He was advertised in the 'Family Tree Magazine' at the time, I recall as I had become stuck with an 'Elizabeth Smith' as I previously mentioned, and I think it was in the eighties, before computors I think, and with his help my 'Smith 'problem was finally solved, but I am not sure today with the internet etc, if he or they they still advertise in the magazine or even if its still being published.
    Last edited by paul333; 22-01-19 at 16:30.

  24. #24
    Junior Member Achievements:
    31 days registered250 Experience Points

    Join Date
    05-01-19
    Location
    Leeds
    Posts
    7
    Points
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    Level
    3
    Points: 269, Level: 3
    Level completed: 19%, Points required for next Level: 81
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    H-P96
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1C3

    Country: UK - England



    Thanks Paul. I'm looking into FTDNA and will probably get tested. I'll let you know what the results are. Best wishes Tim

  25. #25
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    29-03-19
    Location
    Gloucestershire
    Posts
    1
    Points
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    1
    Points: 72, Level: 1
    Level completed: 22%, Points required for next Level: 78
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    H2 P96

    Ethnic group
    Caucasian
    Country: UK - England



    I am from the SW of England and I have Y H2 P96. My Father's side of the family can only be reliably be traced back to 1600s in Gloucestershire.
    Last edited by Kwyjibo78; 30-03-19 at 00:31.

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