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Thread: More on the Tollensee Valley battle site inc. genetics

  1. #51
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    Bicicleur,

    I don't know why do you think that it was a battle between a "southern" and a "northern" groups?

    I rather see it as a battle between a "western" and an "eastern" group. Of course genetically, North-Western Europeans are "more southern" than North-Eastern Europeans, due to having more of Neolithic admixture.

    So Nordic Bronze Age would be genetically more "southern" than Lusatian culture. Just like modern Germans are genetically more "southern" than modern Poles, as explained long ago by Davidski on hi blog:

    http://polishgenes.blogspot.com/2014...rope-than.html

    But geographically, of course Poles are more eastern, not more southern.

    Genetic "southernness" vs. "northernness" is only about the amount of ENF vs. HG.

    Here is a good map showing the amount of Northern Euro admixtures in K36:



    This includes the following admixtures:

    North_Atlantic
    French
    North_Sea
    Central_Euro
    East_Central_Euro
    Fennoscandian
    Eastern_Euro
    Volga-Ural

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    First version of PCA with WEZ and Ancients. This time Wielbark and early Slavs added. RISE569 position is clearly in WEZ-Germanic and Wielbark cluster so I didn't group them it in early Slav cluster...

    The olive cluster is modern North Slav.

    After adding those samples WEZ53 was shifted from Austria proximity to Balkan cluster...


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    1 members found this post helpful.

  4. #54
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    Early Slavic homelands:

    1) According to Jordanes and Procopius (ca. 500 AD):

    http://slavicchronicles.com/history/...g-to-jordanes/



    2) Expansion of Slavs into Finno-Ugric and Baltic lands:



    3) Alternative Proto-Slavic homelands (all possible areas):


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Bicicleur,

    I don't know why do you think that it was a battle between a "southern" and a "northern" groups?

    I rather see it as a battle between a "western" and an "eastern" group. Of course genetically, North-Western Europeans are "more southern" than North-Eastern Europeans, due to having more of Neolithic admixture.

    So Nordic Bronze Age would be genetically more "southern" than Lusatian culture. Just like modern Germans are genetically more "southern" than modern Poles, as explained long ago by Davidski on hi blog:

    http://polishgenes.blogspot.com/2014...rope-than.html

    But geographically, of course Poles are more eastern, not more southern.

    Genetic "southernness" vs. "northernness" is only about the amount of ENF vs. HG.

    Here is a good map showing the amount of Northern Euro admixtures in K36:



    This includes the following admixtures:

    North_Atlantic
    French
    North_Sea
    Central_Euro
    East_Central_Euro
    Fennoscandian
    Eastern_Euro
    Volga-Ural
    If I recall well, it was the isotope study that distinguished a local northern group and a southern group from Bohemia/Southern Germany/The Carpathian Basin.
    Furthermore south-north makes much more sense than east-west because the battle was on a road connecting the Baltics with the south.
    Comparing anciant DNA with modern populations cannot be done straightforward.

  6. #56
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    Polako PCA with added WEZ numbers and cluster names.



    Polako PCA without Finn outliers (Karelians, Verpsians, Komis, I didn't have them on my PCa also because they are far away from WEZ).


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    The case for a Celtic raid seems quite plausible:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lusatian_culture

    German and Polish camarades will know more, but if the Lusatian culture is an offshot of Urnfield it's evident that the dates are the same... well, I know Galitzians in Poland would keep a Celtic past, but all Poland and Belarus is a huge expansion.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    Ward's tree with values from second PCA (without Vepsians, Karelians, Komis).


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    2 members found this post helpful.
    WEZ kits on Gedmatch, K36 values


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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    The case for a Celtic raid seems quite plausible:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lusatian_culture

    German and Polish camarades will know more, but if the Lusatian culture is an offshot of Urnfield it's evident that the dates are the same... well, I know Galitzians in Poland would keep a Celtic past, but all Poland and Belarus is a huge expansion.
    I was thinking about this too. Perhaps we are witnessing ethnogenesis of Germanics, when "nordics" mixed with celts?
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mlukas View Post
    WEZ kits on Gedmatch, K36 values

    Wow, the first guy is quite Iberian (WEZ16)
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post


    No. Early Slavs were an Iron Age society, not Bronze Age. They had iron-made weapons.
    I didn't say that Early Slavs were a bronze age society, I said that the Early Slavs were more primitive than the Bronze age cultures that preceded them. Being from the Iron Age doesn't necessarily make them more advanced either since it is only a single facet of a society and Iron tools only becomes more useful over bronze when you are able to make it into steel. Don't take my word for it though, head down over to your nearest museum and see it with your own eyes. The pottery made by the Bronze age people was decorated with unique patterns while the Slavic pottery lacks any artistic features and looks very crude. In fact the Slavic pottery looks ten thousand years older despite being a couple thousand years more recent. The abodes of Bronze age people were also much larger and more sophisticated with the great fortifications built by Bronze age peoples not being replicated by the Slavs until around the 9th century AD. I don't believe these statements are controversial either, but well known by those in the community. If Slavs are indeed directly descended from these groups there must have been some kind of awful catastrophe where their material culture was not just inhibited, but reversed to significant degree, similar to the state of western Europe after the fall of Rome or Greece after the Dorian invasion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Wow, the first guy is quite Iberian (WEZ16)
    He's not from the battle though, he is the individual from the Neolithic era

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    Quote Originally Posted by mlukas View Post
    WEZ kits on Gedmatch, K36 values

    Thanks for posting them. :) Are the red/bold and normal kit numbers meaning two groups of people? Classified according to isotope level? Or supposed West/East division?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Promenade View Post
    He's not from the battle though, he is the individual from the Neolithic era
    Why is he part of this study?

  16. #66
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    Following the Celtic thread the Urnfield/Lusatian culture gave way to the Puchov culture

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%BAchov_culture

    in its area the Romans found the Celtic Cotini in actual Ruthenia

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotini

    just a typical case where mountains keep ancient languages, as by Julius' times these Celts were surrounded by Germanic tribes. If equating Urnfield / Lusatian with Celtic... the Slavs would be the third team in Poland and Belarus after Germanics.

    Quite awesome the expansion of Celts, from Galicia to Ruthenia, from Scotland to Andalusia, but now in few dying enclaves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Thanks for posting them. :) Are the red/bold and normal kit numbers meaning two groups of people? Classified according to isotope level? Or supposed West/East division?
    No:) Simply some were copied by me directly after upload so the font was red in Gedmatch. I should change it I know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mlukas View Post
    No:) Simply some were copied by me directly after upload so the font was red in Gedmatch. I should change it I know.
    Ok. Do you know which samples could potentially belong to different groups of warriors according to strontium and lead level?

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    No. I don't check it. Maybe it is in PDF suplemental? https://publications.ub.uni-mainz.de.../100001279.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by mlukas View Post
    No. I don't check it. Maybe it is in PDF suplemental? https://publications.ub.uni-mainz.de.../100001279.pdf
    I found it and made two sets based on low and high strontium level. The two groups turned genetically almost identical. The invaders where from close by. Same general population. Probably a power struggle within one ethnic group.

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    2 members found this post helpful.

    It was not slavic/germanic war, neither north/south war.

    I have run 20 samples of Wez group through GedMatch today. All samples turned to be of very low quality. There is not even one decent to make sure what we are exactly looking at. In such instance we are getting "false positive" readings. It means that a sample can "pretend" to be something else. In this case the genetic material could have belonged to one ethnic group, but the readings place them all over northern Europe. We could deal with brother's DNA, or people born in one village, who died in this battle, but with such limited genetic material, one now plots like "slavic" and the other "germanic". This is how crazy it is when we are dealing with small pieces of DNA.

    Anyway, the best thing to do with so many bad samples is to add them together to build one average individual, or two if this battle was among different "races".
    I divided samples in 2 groups. One with lowest level of strontium and the other with highest. About 6 samples each group. Well, they were almost the same. Maybe growing up 100 km apart, to accommodate for a different strontium level, but still belonging to same ethnic group.

    High Strontium Low Strontium
    Germany, Tollensee Valley LBA, 1.25kya Germany, Tollensee Valley LBA, 1.25kya
    Run time 2.52 Run time 2.67
    S-Indian 1 S-Indian 1
    Baloch 2 Baloch 4
    Caucasian 6 Caucasian 9
    NE-Euro 56 NE-Euro 53
    SE-Asian 0 SE-Asian 0
    Siberian 1 Siberian 0
    NE-Asian 0 NE-Asian 0
    Papuan 1 Papuan 0
    American 0 American 1
    Beringian 0 Beringian 0
    Mediterranean 29 Mediterranean 29
    SW-Asian 2 SW-Asian 1
    San 0 San 1
    E-African 0 E-African 0
    Pygmy 0 Pygmy 0
    W-African 1 W-African 1

    Taking under consideration low quality of samples and only 6 in each group, we are dealing with same ethnic group individuals.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Here is the average individual composed of 20 low quality samples. Beside are samples from CW, Unetice, medieval Slav, modern german and polish. I think the BA average guy is the closest to modern Northern German and somewhat close to modern Pole and medieval Slav, though it was most likely a population, which doesn't exist anymore. We can see at this time period evolution of CW/Unetice type of genome towards more modern one of this region. It was probably a population who started like Unetice and mixed with more southern type, like BA Baden. Who knows, maybe already some Celtic influence mixed in at this time?

    Average Wez M107790 I0118 M453254 Rise154 T253390 I0806 Rib-DF27 F999954 Rise569 T005824 Sunghir6
    Germany, Tollensee Valley LBA, 1.25kya Germany LN CW like Unetice EBA K1a4a1 - 3.9kya Germany, Quedlinburg 2431-2150BC Bell Beaker Czechy, Brandysek 1,400 ya Russia, 200 km NE from Moscow 1040-1220 AD, Slav
    Run time 2.63 Run time 11.67 Run Time 4.06 Run time 4.05 Run time 9.14 Run time 13.62 Modern North German Modern Polish
    S-Indian 1 S-Indian 1 S-Indian - S-Indian - S-Indian - S-Indian - S-Indian 0 S-Indian 1
    Baloch 4 Baloch 12 Baloch 14 Baloch 13 Baloch 7 Baloch 7 Baloch 9 Baloch 7
    Caucasian 7 Caucasian 7 Caucasian 4 Caucasian 9 Caucasian 8 Caucasian 11 Caucasian 8 Caucasian 10
    NE-Euro 54 NE-Euro 49 NE-Euro 54 NE-Euro 50 NE-Euro 58 NE-Euro 57 NE-Euro 53 NE-Euro 57
    SE-Asian 0 SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian 0 SE-Asian 0
    Siberian 1 Siberian - Siberian - Siberian - Siberian - Siberian 1 Siberian 0 Siberian 1
    NE-Asian 0 NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian 0 NE-Asian 0
    Papuan 0 Papuan - Papuan - Papuan - Papuan - Papuan - Papuan 0 Papuan 0
    American 0 American - American 1 American - American - American 0 American 1 American 1
    Beringian 0 Beringian - Beringian - Beringian - Beringian - Beringian 2 Beringian 0 Beringian 0
    Mediterranean 29 Mediterranean 30 Mediterranean 27 Mediterranean 27 Mediterranean 26 Mediterranean 22 Mediterranean 27 Mediterranean 22
    SW-Asian 1 SW-Asian - SW-Asian - SW-Asian - SW-Asian - SW-Asian - SW-Asian 1 SW-Asian 1
    San 0 San - San - San - San - San - San 0 San 0
    E-African 0 E-African - E-African 0 E-African - E-African - E-African - E-African 0 E-African 0
    Pygmy 0 Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy 0 Pygmy 0
    W-African 1 W-African 0 W-African - W-African 0 W-African 0 W-African 0 W-African 0 W-African 0

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    Excellent, LeBrok,

    This is exactly the type of analysis which was needed.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    WEZ16 is clearly identified as an outlier as he "realy" was, he was a LBK buried on the site a millenia before the battle. That is known even with the low quality of the samples...

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    We can make an inference that. For knowing that the Tollensee Valley is an economic and strategic point, those two groups have to know the geography and geopolitic of the land at their time. This is very unlikely that we deal with a local group and an immigrant group, more about a fight between two kings and their clients for the control of the the Tollensee Valley, in that case dna cant really help us, except if we assume, that in ancient times, every fight is the result of local vs migrants, wich doesn't make really sens.

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