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Thread: More on the Tollensee Valley battle site inc. genetics

  1. #101
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    I know, but not so bad if everybody recognises two armies, and the paper set goodly the neolithic sample in a neolithic DNA environment... by the way bad quality affecting only teal? you can try to count how many chances per million are for it.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    I know, but not so bad if everybody recognises two armies, and the paper set goodly the neolithic sample in a neolithic DNA environment... by the way bad quality affecting only teal? you can try to count how many chances per million are for it.
    Statistically, it skips smaller admixtures more than bigger ones. For example, if teal is 5% of DNA but only10% of genome is recovered from these ancient guys, it has bigger chance than not, not to have the teal in it, or sub 0.5% and not going to show much on the graph.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Statistically, it skips smaller admixtures more than bigger ones. For example, if teal is 5% of DNA but only10% of genome is recovered from these ancient guys, it has bigger chance than not, not to have the teal in it, or sub 0.5% and not going to show much on the graph.
    I don't know how much of the genomes they recovered, but 10 % would be enough, that would be 300 million pairs.
    But I guess they have less.
    If I understand well, what they present now are only preliminary results, based on novel techniques.
    I hope they'll come up with more later.
    And afaik they are still digging on the site.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Statistically, it skips smaller admixtures more than bigger ones. For example, if teal is 5% of DNA but only10% of genome is recovered from these ancient guys, it has bigger chance than not, not to have the teal in it, or sub 0.5% and not going to show much on the graph.
    If DNA is damaged percents could be keept almost the same, percents don't rely on rough quantities but on relation of quantities... by the way it's quite absurd, take this imaginary exemple, in USA there are 15 cities with 2 million inhabitants being a 5% black american, North Korea bombs all such cities killing 90% of the population, and only in 3 cities the Black Americans survive, it wouldn't be sound?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I don't know how much of the genomes they recovered, but 10 % would be enough, that would be 300 million pairs.
    But I guess they have less.
    If I understand well, what they present now are only preliminary results, based on novel techniques.
    I hope they'll come up with more later.
    And afaik they are still digging on the site.
    I'm not sure, it was just hypothetical examples. Possibly they have much less, so low that it brings "statistical instabilities".

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    If DNA is damaged percents could be keept almost the same, percents don't rely on rough quantities but on relation of quantities... by the way it's quite absurd, take this imaginary exemple, in USA there are 15 cities with 2 million inhabitants being a 5% black american, North Korea bombs all such cities killing 90% of the population, and only in 3 cities the Black Americans survive, it wouldn't be sound?
    Have it your way, and instead seeing unreliable samples making faulty readings, you see them as a good proof of "conspiracy of steppe invasion".

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    where I said steppe in this thread? you are guessing about my thinking but you fail

  8. #108
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I made my first ADMIXTURE run ever... Modern and ancient samples from Tollense study, without few outliers.
    Code:
    Altai Altai
    Chimp Chimp
    Denisovan Denisova
    MezE MezE
    Vi_merge Vi_merge
    Mbuti.DG S_Mbuti-2
    Mbuti.DG S_Mbuti-1
    Mbuti.DG S_Mbuti-3
    Mota mota
    Ust_Ishim Ust_Ishim
    Clovis Anzick
    hg19ref Href
    Kennewick kennewick
    Kostenki14 Kostenki14
    MA1 MA1
    AG2 AG2
    It is K=7 run. PC1 is WHG/SHG component clearly. Only PC5 is hard to describe.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

    Among moderns we have first Finns, than Kargopol Russian, then Poles.

    Pop ID pc1
    SHG I0012 0.999940
    SHG I0013 0.999940
    SHG I0014 0.999940
    SHG I0015 0.999940
    SHG I0017 0.999940
    Switzerland_HG Bichon 0.999940
    WHG I0585 0.999940
    WHG I1507 0.999940
    SHG I0011 0.999935
    WHG Loschbour 0.659030
    EHG I0211 0.401437
    EHG I0124 0.323709
    EHG I0061 0.317327
    WEZ WEZ58 0.260612
    WEZ WEZ63 0.245046
    Europe_LNBA RISE479 0.242848
    WEZ WEZ59 0.230516
    WEZ WEZ83 0.228483
    WEZ WEZ15 0.226258
    WEZ WEZ71 0.220320
    WEZ WEZ24 0.218805
    Europe_LNBA I1502 0.217195
    Steppe_Eneolithic I0433 0.205120
    Steppe_Eneolithic I0122 0.200773
    WEZ WEZ61 0.188813
    WEZ WEZ40 0.186621
    WEZ WEZ77 0.178748
    WEZ WEZ74 0.174627
    Europe_LNBA RISE371 0.171417
    WEZ WEZ64-1 0.169515
    WEZ WEZ56 0.168114
    WEZ WEZ48 0.163429
    WEZ WEZ51 0.151123
    WEZ WEZ39 0.146486
    finnish Finnish2 0.141444
    finnish FIN002 0.141235
    Europe_LNBA I1504 0.140552
    finnish Finnish1 0.139796
    finnish FIN001 0.138663
    Unetice_EBA I0804 0.138568
    WEZ WEZ16 0.135605
    russian HGDP00903 0.134682
    Europe_EN I1499 0.132474
    russian HGDP00881 0.132012
    russian HGDP00882 0.131986
    russian HGDP00898 0.129098
    WEZ WEZ53 0.127044
    WEZ WEZ35-2 0.126865
    russian HGDP00895 0.126131
    polish Polish2 0.124640
    russian HGDP00883 0.124156
    Europe_MNChL I0560 0.121844
    russian HGDP00885 0.120691
    russian HGDP00901 0.120451
    russian HGDP00886 0.120210
    russian HGDP00892 0.119975
    polish Polish8 0.118276
    russian HGDP00891 0.117579
    russian HGDP00902 0.117569
    russian HGDP00884 0.117416
    polish Polish5 0.117117

    WEZ16 has on the contrary 51% of Euro Neolithic (pc7) component (check spreadsheet and sort columns).
    Last edited by mlukas; 05-11-17 at 00:15.

  9. #109
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    I think we already have enough DNA to evit a too big distorsion in respective proportions; that said individuals in Tollense show great differences within the sample. A part could be put on the account of poor DNA sample, but that said, as a whole, even arbitrary (or not) grouped together, the mean group show even in Genetiker higher %s of WHG AND EEF than preceding CHL and BA cultures of the area, the ones with apparently high level of Steppics. So the lower level or absence of CHGlike is not a too big surprise and is surely not only a statistical accident. Genetiker founds more EHGlike (dark blue) than the survey; I have no element nor knowledge to discuss it. What pop could explain this: a less steppic one, more "autochtonous", with an EEF pop lixed with HG's; the possible excess of EHGlike could be, exageration or not of Genetiker, due to a rather Northern HG's pop, kind of SHG, maybe rich in Y-I2a2 and Y-I1. Y haplos could help here, for sure. I suppose the pre-IE or at least pre-Steppics pops of Central Europe at these times had seen a continual increase in HG's auDNA at the cost of Farmers DNA, but here we maybe have a more southern one (more Y-I2a2 + Y-?) but also more EEF, more WHG, kind of proto-Lusacian input, and a more northern one, more SHGlike, (more Y-I1 + Y-?) with less EEF; all the way, these two pops could have been close enough in means, and not descendants of Steppics nomads? spite it seems weird at those times. The more northern one could be the remnants of East TRBK people??? and incorporated, later, in the Germanics genesis. Their apparent lack of CHG seem discarding direct demic link with post-Unetice.
    All that is very fragile, it's true. Guessing and no more to date.

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