More on the Tollensee Valley battle site inc. genetics

[davef]

WEZ kits on Gedmatch, K36 values

Wow, the first guy is quite Iberian (WEZ16)

 

[Promenade]

No. Early Slavs were an Iron Age society, not Bronze Age. They had iron-made weapons.

I didn't say that Early Slavs were a bronze age society, I said that the Early Slavs were more primitive than the Bronze age cultures that preceded them. Being from the Iron Age doesn't necessarily make them more advanced either since it is only a single facet of a society and Iron tools only becomes more useful over bronze when you are able to make it into steel. Don't take my word for it though, head down over to your nearest museum and see it with your own eyes. The pottery made by the Bronze age people was decorated with unique patterns while the Slavic pottery lacks any artistic features and looks very crude. In fact the Slavic pottery looks ten thousand years older despite being a couple thousand years more recent. The abodes of Bronze age people were also much larger and more sophisticated with the great fortifications built by Bronze age peoples not being replicated by the Slavs until around the 9th century AD. I don't believe these statements are controversial either, but well known by those in the community. If Slavs are indeed directly descended from these groups there must have been some kind of awful catastrophe where their material culture was not just inhibited, but reversed to significant degree, similar to the state of western Europe after the fall of Rome or Greece after the Dorian invasion.

 

[Promenade]

Wow, the first guy is quite Iberian (WEZ16)

He's not from the battle though, he is the individual from the Neolithic era

 

[LeBrok]

WEZ kits on Gedmatch, K36 values

Thanks for posting them. Are the red/bold and normal kit numbers meaning two groups of people? Classified according to isotope level? Or supposed West/East division?

 

[davef]

He's not from the battle though, he is the individual from the Neolithic era

Why is he part of this study?

 

[berun]

Following the Celtic thread the Urnfield/Lusatian culture gave way to the Puchov culture

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Púchov_culture

in its area the Romans found the Celtic Cotini in actual Ruthenia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotini

just a typical case where mountains keep ancient languages, as by Julius' times these Celts were surrounded by Germanic tribes. If equating Urnfield / Lusatian with Celtic... the Slavs would be the third team in Poland and Belarus after Germanics.

Quite awesome the expansion of Celts, from Galicia to Ruthenia, from Scotland to Andalusia, but now in few dying enclaves.

 

[Lukas]

Thanks for posting them. Are the red/bold and normal kit numbers meaning two groups of people? Classified according to isotope level? Or supposed West/East division?

No Simply some were copied by me directly after upload so the font was red in Gedmatch. I should change it I know.

 

[LeBrok]

No Simply some were copied by me directly after upload so the font was red in Gedmatch. I should change it I know.

Ok. Do you know which samples could potentially belong to different groups of warriors according to strontium and lead level?

 

[Lukas]

No. I don't check it. Maybe it is in PDF suplemental? https://publications.ub.uni-mainz.de/theses/volltexte/2017/100001279/pdf/100001279.pdf

 

[LeBrok]

No. I don't check it. Maybe it is in PDF suplemental? https://publications.ub.uni-mainz.de/theses/volltexte/2017/100001279/pdf/100001279.pdf

I found it and made two sets based on low and high strontium level. The two groups turned genetically almost identical. The invaders where from close by. Same general population. Probably a power struggle within one ethnic group.

 

[LeBrok]

It was not slavic/germanic war, neither north/south war.

I have run 20 samples of Wez group through GedMatch today. All samples turned to be of very low quality. There is not even one decent to make sure what we are exactly looking at. In such instance we are getting "false positive" readings. It means that a sample can "pretend" to be something else. In this case the genetic material could have belonged to one ethnic group, but the readings place them all over northern Europe. We could deal with brother's DNA, or people born in one village, who died in this battle, but with such limited genetic material, one now plots like "slavic" and the other "germanic". This is how crazy it is when we are dealing with small pieces of DNA.

Anyway, the best thing to do with so many bad samples is to add them together to build one average individual, or two if this battle was among different "races".
I divided samples in 2 groups. One with lowest level of strontium and the other with highest. About 6 samples each group. Well, they were almost the same. Maybe growing up 100 km apart, to accommodate for a different strontium level, but still belonging to same ethnic group.

High Strontium		Low Strontium
Germany, Tollensee Valley	LBA, 1.25kya	Germany, Tollensee Valley	LBA, 1.25kya
Run time	2.52		Run time	2.67
S-Indian	1		S-Indian	1
Baloch	2		Baloch	4
Caucasian	6		Caucasian	9
NE-Euro	56		NE-Euro	53
SE-Asian	0		SE-Asian	0
Siberian	1		Siberian	0
NE-Asian	0		NE-Asian	0
Papuan	1		Papuan	0
American	0		American	1
Beringian	0		Beringian	0
Mediterranean	29		Mediterranean	29
SW-Asian	2		SW-Asian	1
San	0		San	1
E-African	0		E-African	0
Pygmy	0		Pygmy	0
W-African	1		W-African	1

Taking under consideration low quality of samples and only 6 in each group, we are dealing with same ethnic group individuals.

 

[LeBrok]

Here is the average individual composed of 20 low quality samples. Beside are samples from CW, Unetice, medieval Slav, modern german and polish. I think the BA average guy is the closest to modern Northern German and somewhat close to modern Pole and medieval Slav, though it was most likely a population, which doesn't exist anymore. We can see at this time period evolution of CW/Unetice type of genome towards more modern one of this region. It was probably a population who started like Unetice and mixed with more southern type, like BA Baden. Who knows, maybe already some Celtic influence mixed in at this time?

Average	Wez		M107790	I0118		M453254	Rise154		T253390	I0806 Rib-DF27	F999954	Rise569		T005824	Sunghir6
Germany, Tollensee Valley	LBA, 1.25kya		Germany LN	CW like		Unetice EBA K1a4a1 -	3.9kya		Germany, Quedlinburg	2431-2150BC Bell Beaker	Czechy, Brandysek	1,400 ya		Russia, 200 km NE from Moscow	1040-1220 AD, Slav
Run time	2.63		Run time	11.67		Run Time	4.06		Run time	4.05		Run time	9.14		Run time	13.62		Modern North German	Modern Polish
S-Indian	1		S-Indian	1		S-Indian	-		S-Indian	-		S-Indian	-		S-Indian	-		S-Indian	0		S-Indian	1
Baloch	4		Baloch	12		Baloch	14		Baloch	13		Baloch	7		Baloch	7		Baloch	9		Baloch	7
Caucasian	7		Caucasian	7		Caucasian	4		Caucasian	9		Caucasian	8		Caucasian	11		Caucasian	8		Caucasian	10
NE-Euro	54		NE-Euro	49		NE-Euro	54		NE-Euro	50		NE-Euro	58		NE-Euro	57		NE-Euro	53		NE-Euro	57
SE-Asian	0		SE-Asian	-		SE-Asian	-		SE-Asian	-		SE-Asian	-		SE-Asian	-		SE-Asian	0		SE-Asian	0
Siberian	1		Siberian	-		Siberian	-		Siberian	-		Siberian	-		Siberian	1		Siberian	0		Siberian	1
NE-Asian	0		NE-Asian	-		NE-Asian	-		NE-Asian	-		NE-Asian	-		NE-Asian	-		NE-Asian	0		NE-Asian	0
Papuan	0		Papuan	-		Papuan	-		Papuan	-		Papuan	-		Papuan	-		Papuan	0		Papuan	0
American	0		American	-		American	1		American	-		American	-		American	0		American	1		American	1
Beringian	0		Beringian	-		Beringian	-		Beringian	-		Beringian	-		Beringian	2		Beringian	0		Beringian	0
Mediterranean	29		Mediterranean	30		Mediterranean	27		Mediterranean	27		Mediterranean	26		Mediterranean	22		Mediterranean	27		Mediterranean	22
SW-Asian	1		SW-Asian	-		SW-Asian	-		SW-Asian	-		SW-Asian	-		SW-Asian	-		SW-Asian	1		SW-Asian	1
San	0		San	-		San	-		San	-		San	-		San	-		San	0		San	0
E-African	0		E-African	-		E-African	0		E-African	-		E-African	-		E-African	-		E-African	0		E-African	0
Pygmy	0		Pygmy	-		Pygmy	-		Pygmy	-		Pygmy	-		Pygmy	-		Pygmy	0		Pygmy	0
W-African	1		W-African	0		W-African	-		W-African	0		W-African	0		W-African	0		W-African	0		W-African	0

 

[Angela]

Excellent, LeBrok,

This is exactly the type of analysis which was needed.

 

[berun]

WEZ16 is clearly identified as an outlier as he "realy" was, he was a LBK buried on the site a millenia before the battle. That is known even with the low quality of the samples...

 

[halfalp]

We can make an inference that. For knowing that the Tollensee Valley is an economic and strategic point, those two groups have to know the geography and geopolitic of the land at their time. This is very unlikely that we deal with a local group and an immigrant group, more about a fight between two kings and their clients for the control of the the Tollensee Valley, in that case dna cant really help us, except if we assume, that in ancient times, every fight is the result of local vs migrants, wich doesn't make really sens.

 

[halfalp]

So apparently, according to wikipedia, they believe that those were immigrants because of an isotope related with millet consumption, so they assumed that it came from south, from the Alps precisely. The stuy is in german so i cant read it, but it was already discussed on eupedia last year.

 

[bicicleur 2]

We can make an inference that. For knowing that the Tollensee Valley is an economic and strategic point, those two groups have to know the geography and geopolitic of the land at their time. This is very unlikely that we deal with a local group and an immigrant group, more about a fight between two kings and their clients for the control of the the Tollensee Valley, in that case dna cant really help us, except if we assume, that in ancient times, every fight is the result of local vs migrants, wich doesn't make really sens.

the economical value of the Tollense valley was zero, but it was an important strategic road
I mentioned several times in this thread, that this road was one of the few - maybe the only - to cross the swamps when coming from south to the Baltic
these swamps were created after LGM when the icecaps melted but the terrain was not drained yet
all river valeys in this area, most of them runing in northwest direction were broad swamps and upto the Middle Ages all roads crossing these rivers were strategic, very often guarded by fortified castles


extent of the icecaps during 3 last GMs


landscape when the icecap melts : a sandur

 

[halfalp]

the economical value of the Tollense valley was zero, but it was an important strategic road I mentioned several times in this thread, that this road was one of the few - maybe the only - to cross the swamps when coming from south to the Baltic these swamps were created after LGM when the icecaps melted but the terrain was not drained yet all river valeys in this area, most of them runing in northwest direction were broad swamps and upto the Middle Ages all roads crossing these rivers were strategic, very often guarded by fortified castles View attachment 9413 extent of the icecaps during 3 last GMs View attachment 9414 landscape when the icecap melts : a sandur

This was certainly one of the first Amber road of history, so its economic purpose is completely in topic i believe.

 

[bicicleur 2]

This was certainly one of the first Amber road of history, so its economic purpose is completely in topic i believe.

yes, and the road was running north-south
the first study about the Tollense valley dealt only with isotopes and no DNA
if I recall well their conclusion was a local northern group and a southern group from Bohemia/the Carpathian Basin

 

[halfalp]

yes, and the road was running north-south
the first study about the Tollense valley dealt only with isotopes and no DNA
if I recall well their conclusion was a local northern group and a southern group from Bohemia/the Carpathian Basin

Actually it was, a local group and a northern alpin, millet eating group if i understand well.