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Thread: R-l21/ r-df13

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    R-l21/ r-df13

    Hello to anyone reading this. I tested my father's YDNA and he has the YDNA haplogroup of R-L21, and the subclade of R-DF13.What exactly does this mean? I know that these are from the R1b haplogroup right?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by redeyednewt View Post
    Hello to anyone reading this. I tested my father's YDNA and he has the YDNA haplogroup of R-L21, and the subclade of R-DF13.What exactly does this mean? I know that these are from the R1b haplogroup right?
    Read this: https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...1b_Y-DNA.shtml
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    OK thanks. I figured it was R1b but I was not sure?

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L21 (R-DF13)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1 (H1h1) or (H1e1)

    Ethnic group
    Spanish
    Country: UK - England



    Hey your dad has the same halopgroup as me. Welcome to the club

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    Quote Originally Posted by AdeoF View Post
    Hey your dad has the same halopgroup as me. Welcome to the club
    Thanks I also have this haplogroup as I inherited his YDNA. What exactly are the characteristics of Y-DNA haplogroupR-L21 (R-DF13)?

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-L21>DF49xM222

    Ethnic group
    Celtic/Germanic
    Country: United States



    L21 is an Old Lineage with Many Descendents

    Hi redeyednewt,
    L21 is a big group. I think it is now safe to say that it represents Insular Celts, i.e., the people who appear to have repopulated Great Britain and Ireland in the Bronze Age. There's evidence that the Neolithic farmers (Y-DNA haplogroups mainly G2a, H2, I2a1, and I2a2a) were almost completely replaced by R1b-L21 men. They likely originated in southern Germany, and are found in low frequency throughout western continental Europe. It's likely that a kindred of L21 migrated en masse to the European Atlantic Zone, including Great Britain, Ireland and the Atlantic coasts of France, Spain and Portugal. Through famine, war, and/or pestilence, they may have found Great Britain and Ireland largely depopulated. Filling the void, they exerted a strong founder effect on the genetics of Great Britain and Ireland seen to this day. These L21 men were likely associated with the Bell Beaker culture, who were metal workers and ore prospectors that traveled widely across western Europe, including the Atlantic Zone. They likely brought Indo-European languages with them.

    In my own Scottish L21 case, through next generation sequencing and SNP (single nucleotide polymorphism) discovery, I found a cousin whose lineage is from the interior of northern Portugal. Our common ancestor likely lived some time between 1,700-450 BCE (there is a lot of variance among the several dating methods now being used), I tend to lean on the archeological evidence that shows vital cultural links between Iberia and the British Isles existing earlier rather than later in that time frame. The Romans encountered and conquered the Celtic-speaking Galleci/Calleci people of northern Spain and Portugal, that became the Roman province of Gallaecia, that became modern-day Galicia and Portugal.

    The L21 lineages that repopulated Great Britain and Ireland proliferated into a large number of subclades. These were the P-Celtic-speaking Britons, Picts, and Q-Celtic-speaking Scotti, whom the Romans encountered, colonized, and/or walled off at the the beginning of the Common Era.

    They were also the inhabitants of Great Britain that the Anglo-Saxons invaders fought and displaced along the southeast and east coast (The Jutes settled in Kent and Hampshire, the Saxons in the rest of southern England as far north as the Worcestershire, while the Angles occupied the rest of England from East Anglia to Northumberland and southeastern Scotland). Some Britons displaced westward. Some Britons survived the conquest, remained in-placed and were assimilated into the new Anglo-Saxon dominant culture and forgot their Celtic speech. Some Britons fled the Anglo-Saxons across the English Channel, particularly to Brittany, with a small number also fleeing to Galicia.

    Then aside from the Anglo-Saxon newcomers, the Britons, Picts, Scots, Welsh and Irish, were the inhabitants of Great Britain and Ireland, in the middle to late medieval periods, that the Vikings encountered, fought, and in several places (the Shetlands, Orkneys, Yorkshire, Northumbria, Dublin, Wexford, coastal northern & northwest Scotland and the Islands) dominated, before the Viking elites were ultimately assimilated. Same for the conquering Normans and their mercenary elite from Brittany (a reintroduction of some L21 blood lines) and surrounding areas.

    So, today L21 lineages are largely associated with much of the Scottish Highlands and the Islands, southwest Scotland, Northern Ireland, Ireland, northwest England, Wales, Cornwall, and to a somewhat less frequent extent the rest of England, as well as the Diaspora of these people in United States, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand.

    To find out more precisely about where you and your lineage fit into this saga, you would need to do more refined testing.

    I hope this helps.
    Last edited by brimcmike; 27-03-18 at 14:49. Reason: Minor edits

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L21 (R-DF13)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1 (H1h1) or (H1e1)

    Ethnic group
    Spanish
    Country: UK - England



    Quote Originally Posted by brimcmike View Post
    .

    So, today L21 lineages are largely associated with much of the Scottish Highlands and the Islands, southwest Scotland, Northern Ireland, Ireland, northwest England, Wales, Cornwall, and to a somewhat less frequent extent the rest of England, as well as the Diaspora of these people in United States, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand.
    You forgot to say that It's also associated in north Spain. I still don't get why i didn't DF27 but it possible due to Celtic ancestry

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-L21>DF49xM222

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    Galicia is in the north of Spain.
    I should also included Asturias, Cantabria, the Basque Country, Navarre, and the northern swath of Castile and León.
    Please see Maciamo Hay's L21 frequency map (this will be post #4 out of the 10 needed to be able to post links )
    Also, Iceland and Norway. I think it is reasonable to attribute these occurrences mostly to the Viking slave trade.
    From the Wikipedia article Slavery in medieval Europe
    Slavery in Scandinavia
    See also the main Wikipedia article: Thrall
    "The laws from 12th and 13th centuries describe the legal status of two categories. According to the Norwegian Gulating code (in about 1160), domestic slaves could not, unlike foreign slaves, be sold out of the country. This and other laws defined slaves as their master's property at the same level as cattle. It also described a procedure for giving a slave their freedom. A freed slave did not have full legal status; for example, the punishment for killing a former slave was low. A former slave's son also had a lower status, but higher than that of his parents. The Norwegian law code from 1274, Landslov (Land's law), does not mention slaves, but former slaves. Thus it seems like slavery was abolished in Norway by this time. In Sweden, slavery was abolished in 1343."
    L21 men may also have colonized Norway in the Bronze Age. Iceland was not discovered/colonized by anyone until about 800 AD, starting perhaps with Irish monks, followed by larger numbers of Norsemen. So, again the occurrence of L21 men in Iceland is likely from slaves who had children, and who were eventually freed.
    Last edited by brimcmike; 05-04-18 at 04:05. Reason: typo

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by brimcmike View Post
    Hi redeyednewt,
    L21 is a big group. I think it is now safe to say that it represents Insular Celts, i.e., the people who appear to have repopulated Great Britain and Ireland in the Bronze Age. There's evidence that the Neolithic farmers (Y-DNA haplogroups mainly G2a, H2, I2a1, and I2a2a) were almost completely replaced by R1b-L21 men. They likely originated in southern Germany, and are found in low frequency throughout western continental Europe. It's likely that a kindred of L21 migrated en masse to the European Atlantic Zone, including Great Britain, Ireland and the Atlantic coasts of France, Spain and Portugal. Through famine, war, and/or pestilence, they may have found Great Britain and Ireland largely depopulated. Filling the void, they exerted a strong founder effect on the genetics of Great Britain and Ireland seen to this day. These L21 men were likely associated with the Bell Beaker culture, who were metal workers and ore prospectors that traveled widely across western Europe, including the Atlantic Zone. They likely brought Indo-European languages with them.

    In my own Scottish L21 case, through next generation sequencing and SNP (single nucleotide polymorphism) discovery, I found a cousin whose lineage is from the interior of northern Portugal. Our common ancestor likely lived some time between 1,700-450 BCE (there is a lot of variance among the several dating methods now being used), I tend to lean on the archeological evidence that shows vital cultural links between Iberia and the British Isles existing earlier rather than later in that time frame. The Romans encountered and conquered the Celtic-speaking Galleci/Calleci people of northern Spain and Portugal, that became the Roman province of Gallaecia, that became modern-day Galicia and Portugal.

    The L21 lineages that repopulated Great Britain and Ireland proliferated into a large number of subclades. These were the P-Celtic-speaking Britons, Picts, and Q-Celtic-speaking Scotti, whom the Romans encountered, colonized, and/or walled off at the the beginning of the Common Era.

    They were also the inhabitants of Great Britain that the Anglo-Saxons invaders fought and displaced along the southeast and east coast (The Jutes settled in Kent and Hampshire, the Saxons in the rest of southern England as far north as the Worcestershire, while the Angles occupied the rest of England from East Anglia to Northumberland and southeastern Scotland). Some Britons displaced westward. Some Britons survived the conquest, remained in-placed and were assimilated into the new Anglo-Saxon dominant culture and forgot their Celtic speech. Some Britons fled the Anglo-Saxons across the English Channel, particularly to Brittany, with a small number also fleeing to Galicia.

    Then aside from the Anglo-Saxon newcomers, the Britons, Picts, Scots, Welsh and Irish, were the inhabitants of Great Britain and Ireland, in the middle to late medieval periods, that the Vikings encountered, fought, and in several places (the Shetlands, Orkneys, Yorkshire, Northumbria, Dublin, Wexford, coastal northern & northwest Scotland and the Islands) dominated, before the Viking elites were ultimately assimilated. Same for the conquering Normans and their mercenary elite from Brittany (a reintroduction of some L21 blood lines) and surrounding areas.

    So, today L21 lineages are largely associated with much of the Scottish Highlands and the Islands, southwest Scotland, Northern Ireland, Ireland, northwest England, Wales, Cornwall, and to a somewhat less frequent extent the rest of England, as well as the Diaspora of these people in United States, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand.

    To find out more precisely about where you and your lineage fit into this saga, you would need to do more refined testing.

    I hope this helps.
    pre 1970 Bretons (first) and Northwestern French people (second) were also rich of R1b-L21, whose origin could be in Cornwall - all the way, the ancestors came surely from Western Europe as IEans, maybe proto-Celts, since Chalcolithic - they were swept off (for the most) by other R1b clades bearers of rather certainly Celtic origin, and akin to them concerning close ancestors - tribes infiltred and/or pushed other tribes during a long time -

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    Quote Originally Posted by AdeoF View Post
    You forgot to say that It's also associated in north Spain. I still don't get why i didn't DF27 but it possible due to Celtic ancestry
    Yo no creio em Meigas, mas... ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by nuno77 View Post
    Yo no creio em Meigas, mas... ;)
    Yeah i don't aswell just and fun myth, but Iberians are normally DF27 so anyways Celt admixture in north Spain and Portugal is minor not major like in Brittany or Scotland.

    Anyways Fale em Ingles/Speak in English mate remember you got a infraction for it

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    Quote Originally Posted by brimcmike View Post
    Hi redeyednewt,
    L21 is a big group. I think it is now safe to say that it represents Insular Celts, i.e., the people who appear to have repopulated Great Britain and Ireland in the Bronze Age. There's evidence that the Neolithic farmers (Y-DNA haplogroups mainly G2a, H2, I2a1, and I2a2a) were almost completely replaced by R1b-L21 men. They likely originated in southern Germany, and are found in low frequency throughout western continental Europe. It's likely that a kindred of L21 migrated en masse to the European Atlantic Zone, including Great Britain, Ireland and the Atlantic coasts of France, Spain and Portugal. Through famine, war, and/or pestilence, they may have found Great Britain and Ireland largely depopulated. Filling the void, they exerted a strong founder effect on the genetics of Great Britain and Ireland seen to this day. These L21 men were likely associated with the Bell Beaker culture, who were metal workers and ore prospectors that traveled widely across western Europe, including the Atlantic Zone. They likely brought Indo-European languages with them.

    In my own Scottish L21 case, through next generation sequencing and SNP (single nucleotide polymorphism) discovery, I found a cousin whose lineage is from the interior of northern Portugal. Our common ancestor likely lived some time between 1,700-450 BCE (there is a lot of variance among the several dating methods now being used), I tend to lean on the archeological evidence that shows vital cultural links between Iberia and the British Isles existing earlier rather than later in that time frame. The Romans encountered and conquered the Celtic-speaking Galleci/Calleci people of northern Spain and Portugal, that became the Roman province of Gallaecia, that became modern-day Galicia and Portugal.

    The L21 lineages that repopulated Great Britain and Ireland proliferated into a large number of subclades. These were the P-Celtic-speaking Britons, Picts, and Q-Celtic-speaking Scotti, whom the Romans encountered, colonized, and/or walled off at the the beginning of the Common Era.

    They were also the inhabitants of Great Britain that the Anglo-Saxons invaders fought and displaced along the southeast and east coast (The Jutes settled in Kent and Hampshire, the Saxons in the rest of southern England as far north as the Worcestershire, while the Angles occupied the rest of England from East Anglia to Northumberland and southeastern Scotland). Some Britons displaced westward. Some Britons survived the conquest, remained in-placed and were assimilated into the new Anglo-Saxon dominant culture and forgot their Celtic speech. Some Britons fled the Anglo-Saxons across the English Channel, particularly to Brittany, with a small number also fleeing to Galicia.

    Then aside from the Anglo-Saxon newcomers, the Britons, Picts, Scots, Welsh and Irish, were the inhabitants of Great Britain and Ireland, in the middle to late medieval periods, that the Vikings encountered, fought, and in several places (the Shetlands, Orkneys, Yorkshire, Northumbria, Dublin, Wexford, coastal northern & northwest Scotland and the Islands) dominated, before the Viking elites were ultimately assimilated. Same for the conquering Normans and their mercenary elite from Brittany (a reintroduction of some L21 blood lines) and surrounding areas.

    So, today L21 lineages are largely associated with much of the Scottish Highlands and the Islands, southwest Scotland, Northern Ireland, Ireland, northwest England, Wales, Cornwall, and to a somewhat less frequent extent the rest of England, as well as the Diaspora of these people in United States, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand.

    To find out more precisely about where you and your lineage fit into this saga, you would need to do more refined testing.

    I hope this helps.
    Thanks that was helpful, our subclade is: R-DF13 what does this mean? Or where in the modern day world today, are the origins of it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by brimcmike View Post
    Hi redeyednewt,
    L21 is a big group. I think it is now safe to say that it represents Insular Celts, i.e., the people who appear to have repopulated Great Britain and Ireland in the Bronze Age. There's evidence that the Neolithic farmers (Y-DNA haplogroups mainly G2a, H2, I2a1, and I2a2a) were almost completely replaced by R1b-L21 men. They likely originated in southern Germany, and are found in low frequency throughout western continental Europe. It's likely that a kindred of L21 migrated en masse to the European Atlantic Zone, including Great Britain, Ireland and the Atlantic coasts of France, Spain and Portugal. Through famine, war, and/or pestilence, they may have found Great Britain and Ireland largely depopulated. Filling the void, they exerted a strong founder effect on the genetics of Great Britain and Ireland seen to this day. These L21 men were likely associated with the Bell Beaker culture, who were metal workers and ore prospectors that traveled widely across western Europe, including the Atlantic Zone. They likely brought Indo-European languages with them.

    In my own Scottish L21 case, through next generation sequencing and SNP (single nucleotide polymorphism) discovery, I found a cousin whose lineage is from the interior of northern Portugal. Our common ancestor likely lived some time between 1,700-450 BCE (there is a lot of variance among the several dating methods now being used), I tend to lean on the archeological evidence that shows vital cultural links between Iberia and the British Isles existing earlier rather than later in that time frame. The Romans encountered and conquered the Celtic-speaking Galleci/Calleci people of northern Spain and Portugal, that became the Roman province of Gallaecia, that became modern-day Galicia and Portugal.

    The L21 lineages that repopulated Great Britain and Ireland proliferated into a large number of subclades. These were the P-Celtic-speaking Britons, Picts, and Q-Celtic-speaking Scotti, whom the Romans encountered, colonized, and/or walled off at the the beginning of the Common Era.

    They were also the inhabitants of Great Britain that the Anglo-Saxons invaders fought and displaced along the southeast and east coast (The Jutes settled in Kent and Hampshire, the Saxons in the rest of southern England as far north as the Worcestershire, while the Angles occupied the rest of England from East Anglia to Northumberland and southeastern Scotland). Some Britons displaced westward. Some Britons survived the conquest, remained in-placed and were assimilated into the new Anglo-Saxon dominant culture and forgot their Celtic speech. Some Britons fled the Anglo-Saxons across the English Channel, particularly to Brittany, with a small number also fleeing to Galicia.

    Then aside from the Anglo-Saxon newcomers, the Britons, Picts, Scots, Welsh and Irish, were the inhabitants of Great Britain and Ireland, in the middle to late medieval periods, that the Vikings encountered, fought, and in several places (the Shetlands, Orkneys, Yorkshire, Northumbria, Dublin, Wexford, coastal northern & northwest Scotland and the Islands) dominated, before the Viking elites were ultimately assimilated. Same for the conquering Normans and their mercenary elite from Brittany (a reintroduction of some L21 blood lines) and surrounding areas.

    So, today L21 lineages are largely associated with much of the Scottish Highlands and the Islands, southwest Scotland, Northern Ireland, Ireland, northwest England, Wales, Cornwall, and to a somewhat less frequent extent the rest of England, as well as the Diaspora of these people in United States, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand.

    To find out more precisely about where you and your lineage fit into this saga, you would need to do more refined testing.

    I hope this helps.
    Interesting. Through testing with FTDNA, I was able to learn that my haplogroup is L21. A fair number of my matches come from southern Germany, and this is consistent with the hypothesis you advance with respect to the origins of L21. I also have lots of matches from southwestern England (particularly in Cornwall) and a few in Wales and a number in Scotland. The matches from Germany and their locations, plus the locations of the UK matches, gives me a pretty good idea of how my earliest ancestors migrated from southern Germany into the south of Great Britain and then into Wales and mid- and northwestern England and southwestern Scotland.

    The confounding factor is that my surname is a Scottish surname that is most common in the Lowlands, yet appears to have originated in northeastern England in areas close to the Scottish border, suggesting a pattern of migration that veered well off from the typical Celtic migrations that moved up from the south through the west of Great Britain.

    I have direct evidence that I am distantly related to the founder family which carried the original form of my surname, but it is hypothesized that somewhere down the line, a genetic mutation took place and this caused a break that caused my early Scots ancestors to be no longer as closely related to the founder family.

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    I think most Scottish Surnames like most in the world came about after Sephardic Jews began to come out of the closet and around 900 AD. Before that you they did not seem to be important except as Clan Leaders in the Highlands. Where "Big Henry" or Clann Eanruig (pronounced KLAHN YAHN-reegk) became Clan Henderson. Prior to this Scots like Picts were matronymic rather than Patronymic. When Big Henry led Clann Eanruig over the Picts that changed, but it still wasn't like the original Jews prior to slavery in Egypt. Where Jews speaking Hebrew both in everyday language and in the Synagogue first used surnames. Which had a two fold or double meaning.

    Which is like Joshua in the Torah and Bible, being the Son of 'Nun' or in the Hebrew Alphabet was the 14th letter in the Hebrew Alphabet. It meant 'Fish' or as a surname was according to a father's job or rank as in House of Nun being house of a 'Fisherman'. Which the Sephardics Jews began around 900 or some say even before the World followed the Jewish Sephardic's lead in bringing back ancient Patronymic or naming the Son after the father's status, job or where the father was from!

    For the Scots..... it came nick names in Gaelic coming from their move up from Ireland..... I think. I'm no expert and I'm only repeating what I read. There were in fact several migrations of Celts coming both from the south in Ireland and down over the ocean from Vikings. So it depends on ancestry. Yet it was around 1000 AD that the first Irish surname of 'Murphy' was born. From that it seemed every Irish surname followed the same patronymic naming process as did the Scots, Welsh, Brits, etc!

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    I am of the same Haplogroup and Subclade

    I just got back my results and we seem to share a subclade. My fathers side is from Virginia and we can go back as far as John Bailey born in 1786. We don't know his parents or if he was first generation American. I would like to know where he came from. I'm looking forward to finding other Bailey's with the same subclade.

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    Any idea on how to make suggested changes to Eupedia to the R1b-L21 tree? My sub-branch of R-S1026 has had quite a few new BigY testers since 2017.

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