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Thread: Central balkanic democracy

  1. #26
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    Leaks report as Gorna Makedonia
    or back to central balkanic Democracy

    in the 'game' enters also Bulgaria
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Yetos are you native to Macedonia or descendant of Greek refugees of 1922?

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    Severna ?????

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    Greece Says Agreed to Recognize Macedonia as 'Republic of North Macedonia'

    By Reuters

    • June 12, 2018


    ATHENS — Greece has agreed to recognize Macedonia under the name 'Republic of North Macedonia or "Severna Macedonja", a Greek government official said on Tuesday.
    Athens and Skopje have reached a deal to settle a long running dispute over the name of the former Yugoslav Republic's name, Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras said earlier on Tuesday.
    (Reporting by Renee Maltezou)

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    Hurrah, one problem is solved. Now Balkan countires have 99 problems which wait for a solution

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    Hurrah, one problem is solved. Now Balkan countires have 99 problems which wait for a solution
    Was there a real problem?!!!


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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Was there a real problem?!!!
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    Definitely, yes. Maybe not Military problem like Kardak/İmia between Greece and Turkey, but politically absulately. Greece have been blocked Macedonia for Nato and EU etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    Definitely, yes. Maybe not Military problem like Kardak/İmia between Greece and Turkey, but politically absulately. Greece have been blocked Macedonia for Nato and EU etc.
    What is the problem??!!!


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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    What is the problem??!!!
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    ??? Is it some kind of joke? Actually, I am really confused. Both countries are Albanian neighbour and you don't have any idea about this conflict.

    http://www.wiki-zero.net/index.php?q...luZ19kaXNwdXRl

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    Greece-Macedonia name deal meets with mixed reaction


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    Posted: Jun 13, 2018 06:47 AM EDT
    Updated: Jun 13, 2018 06:47 AM EDT

    ATHENS, Greece (AP) - A historic deal ending a decades-long dispute between neighbors Greece and Macedonia over the latter's name met with mixed reactions in both countries Wednesday, with some welcoming the agreement and others horrified at what they see as unacceptable concessions.

    Under the deal reached between the two countries' prime ministers Tuesday, Macedonia will change its name to Republic of North Macedonia, and will amend its constitution. The agreement is expected to be signed this weekend.
    The name dispute has roused strong nationalist sentiments and poisoned the two countries' relations since Macedonia gained independence from Yugoslavia in 1991. Greece argues that the term "Macedonia" implied a claim on the territory and ancient heritage of its own northern province of the same name.
    The two prime ministers' efforts to forge an agreement face strong dissent, with opponents staging large protests on both sides of the border. The issue threatened to split Greece's governing coalition, and provoked a rift between Macedonia's Prime Minister Zoran Zaev and President Gjorge Ivanov.
    New calls were circulating on social media for renewed street protests, with opponents on both sides arguing their prime ministers conceded too much to reach the deal.
    Zaev, accompanied by Foreign Minister Nikola Dimitrov, visited Ivanov Wednesday to brief him on the deal. But Ivanov refused to discuss the issue and walked out of the meeting.

    "President Ivanov ... left the meeting, refusing to talk about the achievements of this historical agreement," the government said in a statement.
    Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras also faces opposition at home.
    Greek Defense Minister Panos Kammenos, whose right-wing Independent Greeks party is the coalition partner in Tsipras' government, said he would oppose an agreement in a parliamentary vote. This would leave the left-wing prime minister dependent on support from political opponents to ratify the deal in parliament.
    The head of Greece's main opposition party described the agreement as "deeply problematic." Conservative New Democracy party head Kyriakos Mitsotakis called on Greece's president to intervene so the deal can be debated in parliament before it is signed, instead of after.
    On the streets of both capitals, reactions were mixed.
    "We lost the country, this is a disaster," 45-year-old lawyer Mila Ivanovska said in Skopje, the Macedonian capital, and began to cry.
    Greek opponents were equally angry.
    "You, Slavs from Skopje through the centuries, you have never been true Macedonians," said Athenian resident Konstandinos Goutras.
    But for others the deal marks a welcome end to a protracted dispute.
    "North Macedonia is acceptable for me," said Svetlana Jancevska, a 55-year-old music teacher in Skopje, adding that it does "not damage my identity as Macedonian. The language remains Macedonian and that makes me happy. It was high time for the problem to be solved."
    The agreement should pave the way for the former Yugoslav republic to begin the process of acceding to NATO and the European Union, and was welcomed by international officials.
    The dispute was deadlocked for years but hope for a resolution was rekindled after Zaev became Macedonia's prime minister last year, replacing conservative Nikola Gruevski who had served as prime minister for a decade.
    Opponents in Greece object to any use of the term "Macedonia" in their northern neighbor's name, fearing territorial claims and seeing the use of the name as a usurping of Greece's ancient heritage. Opponents in Macedonia disagree with any modification to their country's name, seeing it as a threat to their national identity.
    ____
    Mironski reported from Skopje, Macedonia. Raphael Kominis in Athens, Greece, contributed to this report.

  11. #36
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    It is stupid.
    just Stupid

    Notice Makedonian language = Slavic idiom
    Makedonian Dialect = Greek idiom

    Nativity
    both have Makedonian
    citizenship
    Greek
    North Makedonia

    Just stupid.

    wine origιn
    both can use term Makedonian

    just a pushed agreement by non Balkanic forces,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    It is stupid.
    just Stupid

    Notice Makedonian language = Slavic idiom
    Makedonian Dialect = Greek idiom

    Nativity
    both have Makedonian
    citizenship
    Greek
    North Makedonia

    Just stupid.

    wine origιn
    both can use term Makedonian

    just a pushed agreement by non Balkanic forces,
    I agree it should be called Paeonia

    http://greece.greekreporter.com/2018...500-years-ago/

    The exact original boundaries of Paeonia, like the early history of its inhabitants, are obscure, but it is known that it was located immediately north of ancient Macedonia (which corresponded roughly to the modern Greek region of Macedonia), and to the south-east of Dardania (which was similar to modern-day Kosovo); in the east were the Thracian mountains, and in the west, the Illyrians.[2] It was separated from Dardania by the mountains through which the Vardar river passes from the field of Scupi (modern Skopje) to the valley of Bylazora (modern Veles).

    Paeonia roughly corresponds to the present-day Republic of Macedonia and to a narrow strip of northern Greek Macedonia, on the borders with the Republic of Macedonia, and a small part of south-western Bulgaria.[3][4][5][6]
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    ??? Is it some kind of joke? Actually, I am really confused. Both countries are Albanian neighbour and you don't have any idea about this conflict.

    http://www.wiki-zero.net/index.php?q...luZ19kaXNwdXRl
    This is not a problem....this is Greece playing with history.


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    For me personally as a citizen of R.Macedonia,name like north Macedonia is acceptable, really not big deal there is many countries and regions around the world named South/North, however I am still skeptic as I think many people will oppose such a name on both sides,especially "nationalists".

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    This is not a problem....this is Greece playing with history.


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    Greece is not playing and you know it well,
    under your skin,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    For me personally as a citizen of R.Macedonia,name like north Macedonia is acceptable, really not big deal there is many countries and regions around the world named South/North, however I am still skeptic as I think many people will oppose such a name on both sides,especially "nationalists".
    there is no South Makedonia, and will be not as they claim ( politicians that propose the treaty)

    there will be a North, the new one, the old Fyrom
    and the ancient ones upper, low, but as in modern Greek West, Central, and East
    Bulgaria looses the claims of the old Blent treaty of communistic era,
    and tottaly loses every claim about word Makedonia
    (for me it is good)

    Linguistic,
    Makedonian language for Skopjie identified as a Slavic family member
    BUT
    Makedonian dialect is a member of Greek family
    !!!!!
    So when I say Makedonian dialect, I speak about Greek, but when I say Makedonian language I will speak about a Slavic one?

    nativity citizenship
    Makedonian / Citizen of Severna Makedonia,
    Greek type (*) / citizen of Greece

    products,
    example wine
    Makedonian produced in Makedonia but product of Severna Makedonia Macedonsko
    Makedonian produced in Makedonia but product of Greece Μακεδονικoς

    it is just silly
    biased fast solution, kids play,

    something smells here I think.

    I think energy lines will pass as it is programmed, and need something fast to enter area under NATO control
    It is not strange the same time that more than 200 specialist agents arrive in a nearby country for watching ISIS reformation program.

    Hives grow too much in Balkans, lately,
    and strange things happen

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    there is no South Makedonia, and will be not as they claim ( politicians that propose the treaty)
    there will be a North, the new one, the old Fyrom
    and the ancient ones upper, low, but as in modern Greek West, Central, and East
    Linguistic,
    Makedonian language for Skopjie identified as a Slavic family member
    BUT
    Makedonian dialect is a member of Greek family
    !!!!!
    So when I say Makedonian dialect, I speak about Greek, but when I say Makedonian language I will speak about a Slavic one?
    nativity citizenship
    Makedonian / Citizen of Severna Makedonia,
    Greek type (*) / citizen of Greece
    products,
    example wine
    Makedonian produced in Makedonia but product of Severna Makedonia Macedonsko
    Makedonian produced in Makedonia but product of Greece Μακεδονικoς
    it is just silly
    biased fast solution, kids play,
    something smells here I think.
    I think energy lines will pass as it is programmed, and need something fast to enter area under NATO control
    It is not strange the same time that more than 200 specialist agents arrive in a nearby country for watching ISIS reformation program.
    Hives grow too much in Balkans, lately
    Well Macedonia want to be part of NATO and EU for decades but is blocked with veto from Greece cause of name dispute,and why always people bring ancient Macedonia,the region was known as Macedonia from 19th century onwards with clear boundaries,people got their identity through that region,we are not speaking here about ancient neither Roman provinces of Macedonia,ancient Macedonians are from much earlier history,like ancient Britons,or ancient Dalmatians and so on.The newly formed republic of Macedonia is not ancient Macedonia,history should be left to historians,about Macedonian language (Slavic one) all linguist in the world call it as such and they don't confuse it with ancient.To add something about your suggestion,yes maybe some NATO members push for solution of the name, is not important for me at all,however is about time both countries to normalize their relations. This is my own view which is not held by everyone,as we know people believe and learn whatever they teach them,the keys again are among the politicians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    Well Macedonia want to be part of NATO and EU for decades but is blocked with veto from Greece cause of name dispute,and why always people bring ancient Macedonia,the region was known as Macedonia from 19th century onwards with clear boundaries,people got their identity through that region,we are not speaking here about ancient neither Roman provinces of Macedonia,ancient Macedonians are from much earlier history,like ancient Britons,or ancient Dalmatians and so on.The newly formed republic of Macedonia is not ancient Macedonia,history should be left to historians,about Macedonian language (Slavic one) all linguist in the world call it as such and they don't confuse it with ancient.To add something about your suggestion,yes maybe some NATO members push for solution of the name, is not important for me at all,however is about time both countries to normalize their relations. This is my own view which is not held by everyone,as we know people believe and learn whatever they teach them,the keys again are among the politicians.
    Milan the only few hostile acts happened at 1990's
    with the 7 days embargo by Greece, and the attacks on Greek busses and cars in Ohrid and Skopjie by Fyromians,
    today there is no hostility among majority of people,
    I personally pass the borders 10 times per year, and stay for weekends.
    and both bulgaria and Greece guarantee this state, as also Serbia does,
    that guarantee, as also the fact that about 1/3 are Albanians, made Fyrom the no 1 base of agents from all over the world, and you know it,
    NATO is not so needed, since alrady Fyrom has a big base of USA troops, and kossovo is not far away,
    the total estimation of bases if the big one in Kossovo completes is about 150 000 troops
    40 000 in Fyrom where already exist about 3-5 000,

    So it rather that Entrance in NATO is guarantee for entrance in EU.
    but that can not be done if in the constitution of Fyrom exist articles about 'lost lands' and occupied Makedonia, by Greece and Bulgaria,
    bulgaria has recogned republic of Makedonia,
    but never recogn Makedonian ethnicity and language,

    by the propose file,
    there is a Makedonian ethnicity which speak a Makedonian language but it is Slavic and Slavic origin
    and has nothing to Do with the Greeks and Greeks, which spoke Makedonian Dialect,
    BUT WHERE NOT MAKEDONIANS, but GREEKS

    So Phillip of Makedon, spoke Makedonian dialect, but was not Makedonian, he was Greek !!!!!!

    it is just silly,

    besides, the file says also that after the treaty Fyrom enters NATO,
    and in 5 years they will change their constitution, according their progress with EU entrance,
    so for 5 years in the constitution of the state, Fyrom claims lands from Bulgaria and Greece,
    based in the old Communistic tretay among Dimitrov and Titto.

    just stupid,

    Notice
    both are makedonian, to international market, both are and will use the trade mark 'MAKEDONIAN WINE'
    both are produced in Makedonia according the origin
    but one is made in Greece
    and the other made in Severna Makedonia






    As for the razors edge,
    it is stupid,
    the guarantee of this state is certain, by all,
    unless they start a war, according their institution,
    playing the game 'cat and mouse'
    I am the cat. No I am the cat, No I am the cat
    is rather annoying,

    there is no itension, even Fyrom, although in constitution, to start a war,
    in fact most I ask, they love Greece, and even the most fanatics,
    simply it is a political game,
    and that file makes it more complex,

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    If there is no North Macedonia, there is also no East Macedonia. Today Greeks use the term East Macedonia which is actually part of ancient time Thrace.

    Suggestion of Paeonia is just another Romantic Historiography. It has not single difference than North Macedonians' Macedonia claim.
    With this perspective, there shouldn't be any Turkish place name in Anatolia or Slavic name in all Balkans. I am not even talking about New World.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    If there is no North Macedonia, there is also no East Macedonia. Today Greeks use the term East Macedonia which is actually part of ancient time Thrace.

    Suggestion of Paeonia is just another Romantic Historiography. It has not single difference than North Macedonians' Macedonia claim.
    With this perspective, there shouldn't be any Turkish place name in Anatolia or Slavic name in all Balkans. I am not even talking about New World.
    The problem is keeping the name Macedonia is that the language is also known as macedonian which is today a slavic linguistic branch............do you think ancient Macedonia spoke a slavic language !.
    so apart from the country's name , you also need to look at the language of the country

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    The problem is keeping the name Macedonia is that the language is also known as macedonian which is today a slavic linguistic branch............do you think ancient Macedonia spoke a slavic language !.
    so apart from the country's name , you also need to look at the language of the country
    What next's changing name of Bulgarians and Bulgarian Language? They are speaking Slavic language but Step Bulgars spoke Turkic language.

    If you have a methodology, it should work on all situations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Greece is not playing and you know it well,
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    Know what... claiming trademark for names used 2000 years ago......


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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    What next's changing name of Bulgarians and Bulgarian Language? They are speaking Slavic language but Step Bulgars spoke Turkic language.

    If you have a methodology, it should work on all situations.
    Imagine
    Bulgarians to call themshelves Seljouks,
    their land Seljoukia,
    their language Turkish
    their nativity and ethnicity Seljouk
    etc

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    As I Greek I am really happy for this agreement, that puts finally a full stop to this dispute that started as early as 1991. 27 years we play with names, it had to come to an end.

    The identity issue and their claim to call themselves Macedonians, is an irrefutable right of them and is protected from the UN. Greece can do nothing about it and couldn't do all these years. The world Macedonian itself maybe confusing and misleading when we look back at history but history doesn't stop in Alexander's Era. Since then many things changed in the region, Romans ruled, Byzantines ruled, Slavs came, new people came, stayed and eventually formed their identity. It has been 100 years now that they claim Macedonian identity and call themselves so, really hard to force them to deny it and actually nobody has the right to do so. It is good though that this agreement makes clear that this term is not a claim for ancient Macedonian heritage and culture, with the latter being tightened to Greece. Fair enough IMO.

    Same applies to language, with the difference that a term like "Slavomacedonian" would be more accurate and to the point. But when you force somebody to change their county's name, change their constitution and all the territorial claims, stop heritage's and culture's claims and your will is to have a fair agreement, you should "give" sth to the other side as part of the deal.

    I hope this agreement reaches a confirmation for both sides (it is not very easy) and a new Era for Balkans starts. It is crucial geopolitically for Balkans to come closer to NATO and move far from the sphere of influence of Russia and Turkey. It would be very beneficial for this country to join in some years the EU. And not only for them, but for the other Balkan countries.

    Prosperity, growth and well-being are built on cooperation, friendship, open minds.

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