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Thread: I was mistaken: the steppe warriors rode sirens

  1. #26
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    ceramics were a luxury item traded by Phoenicians and Greeks, it is not the same case if you are a colonist or miner.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    the same kind of palatial estructure is present in Sardinia, maybe it also is known in Crete, I don't know

    http://www.ruta-argarica.es/la-almol...de-audiencias/

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Vaguely, like any other arsenical copper sword.

    Their material culture is vastly different, the emergence of individual burials could be easily explained with the local development of bronze technology

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    They weren't luxury item necessarily, Phoenicians and Greeks traveled with every kind of pottery from cooking pots to jars, in every single colonization the migrants brought a lot of pottery, not only that but they started making it themselves on the spot along with the local.

    If we look at the Phoenicians colonization of Andalusia, every excavated Phoenician settlement presented thousands upon thousands of Phoenician pottery shreds and other Phoenician objects like looms, pendants, etc.

    Same thing with the Greeks.

    Colonization movements can be easily traced, no way on earth Minoan colonized Andalusia without bringing their material culture along, to me it's an obvious case of convergence.

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    According to the professors of the Autonomous University, the men of the Algar culture have their origin in the steppes and come to the Iberian Peninsula through Ireland!, Galicia and Portugal, being the women of a more Neolithic mixture, that Does this have to do with the Minoics or Mycenaeans?

    They also comment that while in central Europe the Neolithic invasion practically eliminated the previous hunter-gatherers, in the Iberian Peninsula there was a mixture between hunter-gatherers and Neolithic, where is this mixture of hunter gatherer today ?.

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    the archaeologists "translated" the genetic results got by geneticists after computing it with the actual Reichist steppemania.

    for hunter gatherers I suppose that they rely on information about an increase of the WHG component in the Chalco.

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    In this forum I recognize that it is possibly the one with the least academic training in these subjects, but my curiosity about history has led me to visit this and other forums, I know that here there are good professionals, also some agendas that eventually the truth always triumphs today, tomorrow, or in 20 or 40 years, hence they are wasting their time, because in these subjects one should try to shine the truth and only the truth.

    But of course I am an amateur with curiosity about history, when I consider the view of the pre-Roman Iberian peninsula, it really is a puzzle, because we observe that the natural connection with Europe through the two Pyrenean coasts of the Basque and Catalan They meet with non-Indo-European, Basque and Iberian languages ​​and in the interior we find several Celtic and non-Celtic languages ​​but if Indo-European -> Lusitano and Ventn among others, how is this variety of non-Celtic Celtic proven Indo-European languages ​​cohabiting with languages ​​like the Iberian, tartsico, Basque, not Indo-European ?.

    Iberian and Tartessian languages ​​with their own writing?

    This puzzle can be explained in part by the condition of the Iberian peninsula of having collected atlantic, mediterranean and central european influences.

    Lately it was thought that the Iberian peninsula was the origin and repopulation of Europe (I do not rule out that it was so after the glaciation), but that is ruled out, there were legends in Ireland that came from the Iberian Peninsula, that was ruled out, but great is that it is the reverse that part of the population of the Iberian peninsula comes from Ireland, this being true explains many things of the Iberian puzzle, for example change of language in the inner part of the peninsula (the Visigothic did not manage to change the language ) and in the natural steps towards Europe non-Indo-European language, the Q-Celtic languages of the peninsula, these did not come from France clearly, but I think from Ireland.


    In short, this new contribution of the Catalan professors in the international research in which they are found has given me some light in the tunnel of the Iberian puzzle.

    Sorry for the text so long, also with Google translations is a bit like what I want to say.



    The only thing that does not fit into this history of Argaric culture is that architecture so brutal in this remote age coming from Ireland, surely the architects were Neolithic women.




    Last edited by ROS; 24-11-17 at 01:11.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    No Celts came from Ireland to populate Spain. That's as incorrect as the old idea that Iberians migrated to the British Isles. Pre or Proto Celtic spread from somewhere in central Europe. From there it went to the British Isles. From Central Europe it also went down through France and into Spain. There was no large scale migration from Ireland to Iberia. It didn't happen.

    Tartessian:
    "Tartessian is generally left unclassified, due to lack of data, or proposed to be a language isolate due to an absence of connections to the Indo-European languages.[20][21] Some Tartessian names have been interpreted as Indo-European or more specifically as Celtic.[22]However, the language as a whole remains inexplicable from the Celtic or Indo-European point of view; the structure of Tartessian syllables appears to be incompatible with Celtic or even Indo-European phonetics, and more compatible with Iberian or Basque; any Celtic elements are thought to be borrowings by some scholars.[23]Since 2009, John T. Koch has argued that Tartessian is a Celtic language and that the texts can be translated.[24][25][26][27] Koch's thesis has been popularised by the BBC TV series The Celts[28] and the associated book by Alice Roberts.[29] However, his proposals have been regarded with scepticism by academic linguists and the script, which is "hardly suitable for the denotation of an Indo-European language[,] leaves ample room for interpretation."[30]"


    See also:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_language




    We have to distinguish between Los Millares and El Argar, and we'll have to wait for the release of the ancient dna to figure out who settled Los Millares and subsequently .
    El Argar.

    Archaeological evidence has not been very dispositive, but what there was seemed to indicate an origin somewhere to the east.

    At the time of the emergence of Los Millares there were no steppe groups who were building settlements like this:




    "
    Los Millares participated in the continental trends of Megalithism and the Beaker culture. Analysis of occupation material and grave goods from the Los Millares cemetery of 70 tholos tombs with port-hole slabs has led archaeologists to suggest that the people who lived at Los Millares were part of a stratified, unequal society which was often at war with its neighbours. The Los Millares civilisation was replaced circa 1800 BC, with the arrival of Bronze by the El Argar civilisation, whose successor culture is embodied in the contemporary culture of Vila Nova de São Pedro in nearby Portugal.

    Other Iberian settlements in this region of a similar age to Los Millares include the settlement of Los Silillos and Neolithic finds at Cabrera (es).[5]
    Similarities between Los Millares architecture and the step pyramid at Monte d'Accoddi in Sardinia have been noticed."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Millares

    If I'm remembering correctly, Jean Manco used to hold that Los Millares might have been built by prospectors and miners from the Balkans, i.e. Old Europe.

    El Argar is 2200 BC. It is the beginning of the Bronze Age proper in Spain. I'm not aware of any steppe related groups at that time, and certainly not in 3000 BC who had a sea faring culture. Nor am I aware of them building anything remotely looking like this even in 2200 BC:


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Argar

    "The collective burial tradition typical of European Megalithic Culture is abandoned in favor of individual burials. The tholos is abandoned in favour of small cists, either under the homes or outside. This trend seems to come from the Eastern Mediterranean, most likely from Mycenaean Greece (skipping Sicilyand Italy, where the collective burial tradition remains for some time yet).

    From the Argarian civilization, these new burial customs will gradually and irregularly extend to the rest of Iberia.
    In the phase B of this civilization, burial in pithoi (large jars) becomes most frequent (see: Jar-burials). Again this custom (that never reached beyond the Argarian circle) seems to come from Greece, where it was used after. ca 2000 BC."



    • Mycenaean Greece: some cultural exchanges across the Mediterranean are very clear, with Argarians adopting Greek funerary customs (individual burials, first in cist and then in pithos), while Greeks also import the Iberian tholos for the same purpose.


    Still, the ancient dna will sort it out. Whatever it is, it is.


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    the first settlement was La Bastida, the other El Argar settlements came later

    the Iberian Celts - at least those that were in Iberia during the Punic wars are supposed to have arrived in the 6th cent BC - between Hallstadt and La Tene period

    nevertheless, the report claims that mixture of incoming El Argar people with local population gave way to present day Iberian population

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    @Angela what you explain is what was believed until now, that is why what these Catalan professors say is revolutionary.

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    In 2000-1800 bc Mycenaean Greece wasn't even a thing, they were not a significant power until the 15th century bc when they conquered Crete, it's pure speculation and I really doubt the semi tribal chiefdoms in what was then mainland Greece had the ability to launch a colonization campaign 1,000 kilometers away from their homeland.

    Again, to anybody who is familiar with archaeological papers about prehistoric migrations, be it Greeks in the bronze age and iron age, Phoenicians in the iron age, etc. the colonizers leave behind a lot of material evidence, if a migration took place the evidence would be there, however there isn't any.

    Things like rectangular buildings were common in all proto urban and urban societies, from the Levant, to Greece and to Italy, and can all be explained as a convergence phenomenon, as well as the burial in cists.

    Even sporadic contacts without any colonization left behind a lot of material evidence in Italy, see for example those between Greeks and South Italy during the late bronze age, how could a full fledged colonization movement to Spain leave no proof behind?

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    if you apply all it to the demic expansion of the IE protolanguage I think you will face a big problem... take per example the Mycaeneans, from where they came? which material proofs can you provide?

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    if you apply all it to the demic expansion of the IE protolanguage I think you will face a big problem... take per example the Mycaeneans, from where they came? which material proofs can you provide?
    To the IE Expansion?

    There is loads of evidence for Helladic Greece receiving some outside influence from the IE cultures around the Danube basin, also it's not like the Myceneans "came" from God knows where, the Myceneans/Early greeks formed from the mixing of the IE migrants with the local people from early Helladic Greece.

    You can apply my line of reasoning for every migration movement, from the IE people invading Britain and replacing their material culture with central European bell beaker culture, to the Greeks from Corinth settling Syracuse in Sicily and so on.

    Of course it's a necessary but not sufficient condition, foreign materials do not necessarily imply a significant number of foreign migrants, let alone population displacement, but they are a requirement to postulate those thing..

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    some proof at all? leaving aside trade items, of course

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    GUYS

    THINK ABOUT THIS

    CASSITERIDES ISLES,

    MINOANS AND MYCENEANS TRAVEL TILL BRITISH ISLANDS,
    DO YOU THINK THEY DID NOT HAD ANY ALLY, OR AN EMPORIUM, AFTER S. ITALY?
    TILL ALL THE WAY TO ATLANTIC and NORTH SEA?
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    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    It seems the case after finding some steppe DNA in El Argar culture (southeastern Spain):https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Argarthe culture has some "Aegean" cultural relations, and by such epoch it's not known any continental migration towards the penninsula; and as we know now Portuguese R1b of the Bronze Age and Catalan R1b Bell Beakers had not steppe DNA, so... only sirens can explain the case!:)not kidding now: what about Mycaenians? Minoans?
    Depends on the type of the relations. Basically I have said that Mycenean 'tombs' are more similar in concept with W/NW European megalithic 'tombs'.According to ancient Greek writers Greek element existed in the South in the regions which later became Phoenician (and among the Phoenicians later), for example in Tartessos (@Angela which is a possible entry point for J2 lineages but not the only one).In Eastern Spain we had a non-IE language (Iberian). I think there was contact between Greeks (likely Ionians) and Iberians of Murcia certainly during or before the 5th century BC (but maybe not much before).(One good question -maybe not much important or not related- is what haplogroups existed in North Western Africa at that time and earlier, because E-M81 expanded in most of Maghreb the last 2000 years)

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    One possible scenario is that the people who brought the 'steppe' admixture spoke a pre-proto-Iberian language and not Celtic.

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    So, what "steppe" group had a sea faring culture in 2600 BC? If, according to the Catalan professors the steppe element entered Spain from the southeast, and not from the north and over the Pyrenees as all other theories have proposed, that's how they arrived.

    That's the question for the Catalan professors.

    This is roughly the time of Corded Ware and Bell Beaker in Europe, but there's no evidence they took to the sea. Minoan Crete wouldn't have "steppe", and neither would the Phoenicians.

    That leaves displaced Balkans groups with some steppe and Aegean peoples perhaps from the coast of Turkey who also had some steppe? I don't know. What was Cyprus like at that time, or Sardinia?

    This culture didn't just grow up independently. It brought Bronze technology and a stratified culture to Spain, as well as the knowledge to build a sophisticated settlement and defensive walls. Interestingly, that architecture didn't make it past the confines of El Argar, apparently.

    Now, if they were locals in contact with the eastern Mediterranean, they could have built this culture. You wouldn't need gene flow. The most recent example of GAC shows us that. However, they're saying these people had a steppe element. That narrows the possible scenarios.

    Unless, perhaps the steppe element had filtered down to these people from the north and the culture part came from the east.

    They need to contact the Reich Lab and turn over the skeletal material. Also, very little of it has been excavated.

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    La Bastida itself is a rather recent finding.
    The invading group were warriors, but it must have been a relatively small group, as La Bastida was their only such settlement.
    Some warrior group that had lost a battle somewhere and was on the run looking for a new place to stay.
    Also IE groups could be able to travel along the Mediterranean shores.
    The Usatovo 5.5 - 4.5 ka would have had quite an extensive trade network, part of the transport was probably done by rowing longboats.
    4 ka is before the time of the larger Minoan vessels with sails. And till the bronze age collapse, 3.2 ka regular traffic by boat was confined to the eastern Mediterranean.

    Somehow this whole story reminds me of the Moorish conquerors of Andalusia and Iberia who came all the way from Baghdad, where they had lost a battle against a competing dynasty.

    If we were to rely just on archeology, where would we have traced the origins of the Moorish?
    No, we need DNA.

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    I still don't understand the chronology of the El Argar culture very well, anyway Los Millares already was a proto urban settlement with walls back in 3025 bc according to C14 analysis, so way before any steppe admixture got to Spain, then it is likely to conclude that those proto urban features were developed independently, 3025 bc, that's even earlier than the oldest Aegean proto urban settlements like Poliochne.

    Regarding your other question, about Sardinia and Cyprus during the time of the El Argar culture, Sardinia had developed a proto urban culture known as the Monteclaro culture (2700-2100 bc), they had some cists burials too like the El Argar people, the settlements had rectangular buildings and were encircled by massive stone walls, the most notable one being Monte Baranta (2500-2200 bc):










    While in Cyprus too rectangular houses start to be come widespread during the early bronze age, the Philia (2400-1600 bc) culture had interesting features and their idols display some similarities with the Aegean ones

    Last edited by Pygmalion; 24-11-17 at 23:35.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    La Bastida itself is a rather recent finding.
    The invading group were warriors, but it must have been a relatively small group, as La Bastida was their only such settlement.
    Some warrior group that had lost a battle somewhere and was on the run looking for a new place to stay.
    Also IE groups could be able to travel along the Mediterranean shores.
    The Usatovo 5.5 - 4.5 ka would have had quite an extensive trade network, part of the transport was probably done by rowing longboats.
    4 ka is before the time of the larger Minoan vessels with sails. And till the bronze age collapse, 3.2 ka regular traffic by boat was confined to the eastern Mediterranean.

    Somehow this whole story reminds me of the Moorish conquerors of Andalusia and Iberia who came all the way from Baghdad, where they had lost a battle against a competing dynasty.

    If we were to rely just on archeology, where would we have traced the origins of the Moorish?
    No, we need DNA.
    The Argaric culture at least in Murcia, which is what I know, is a culture whose remains are everywhere, and there are many unexplored archaeological sites, a culture that has influenced the rest of the Iberian Peninsula, that is, not we are talking about minutiae, La Bastida is one more (impressive but one more).


    Argaric culture has been known for a long time, as I say there are remains everywhere in Murcia at least, but I think it needs to be investigated more systematically.


    What is new is that genetic tests are done on human remains, and someone says (university professors in an international study) that what we find there is the genetic mixture of the entire Iberian Peninsula, this is the new thing.


    And if science says that all Iberians are Moors, well said, is it bad? The problem is when they tell you that you are a Moor without being only because of prejudice towards the Iberians.

    North of Africa is 13 kilometers from the Iberian Peninsula, but of course science tells us that there is a great genetic difference, I would say of the most important in so few kilometers, I consider myself anti-racist and anti-prejudice and seeker of the truth of things first of all.


    How are we not going to have a certain North African component if they are our neighbors? It is normal, nothing happens, now we are basically Europeans.

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    The arsenical bronze swords from the middle El Argar culture have often been compared to those of early bronze age Sardinia (1700-1650 bc)

    El Argar swords:





    Sardinian Sant'Iroxi swords





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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    You take out a dagger from the Middle Ages, you take off the handle and it also looks like it.

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    That's what the experts of the bronze age Western mediterranean have concluded: http://www.academia.edu/1138694/LE_S...ORME._2012Also Also I don't think daggers can be 70 cms long.

    I too was doubtful but if F.Lo Schiavo and Parronda, who are major experts in that field have concluded that, they probably have their reasons.

    We know for certain that direct contacts between Andalusia and Sardinia did happen later in the final bronze age and early iron age, as testified both by a huge variety of bronze objects (tripodes, axes, swords) and by a considerable number of Nuragic pottery shards having been found in Andalusia and even reproduced locally there in some occasions, some of them were also found in pre-Phoenician contexts:

    http://www.academia.edu/29053155/Rip...nuove_evidenze

    http://www.raco.cat/index.php/Cuader.../276368/392932

    So I wouldn't be surprised if some contacts happened earlier in the early and middle bronze age

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    @Pygmalion,
    Cyprus and/or Sardinia seem a lot more likely as the source of the culture given the similarities in the material culture, the architecture, the burials, and the documented contacts from later on.

    The Ozieri Culture in Sardinia already showed influence from Crete and Malta in 3200 BC. It would only increase.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozieri_culture

    The professors may have confused a chunk of WHG plus a bit of CHG for "steppe" ancestry.

    We won't know unless the samples are checked by people who know what they're doing.

    A shame that all these Southern European cultures have not been more extensively excavated and studied. I'd love to know more about Los Millares and El Argar.

    @Ros,
    No, it wouldn't be bad if all Iberians were Moors, but that isn't the case. Has there been some gene flow? Yes, it seems there has, but these are two different populations, which have been subject to different gene flows from different areas. The North Africans, in particular, have been changed by a lot of gene flow from SSA which didn't affect Spain and Portugal anywhere to that degree. They don't have EHG, for another. Even their amount of WHG, which would have come from Spain, is less than is present in Iberia, from what I remember. So, as I said, two very different populations.

    The same has happened everywhere in Europe. At borders there is always some amount of gene flow in both directions. It's, as you say, normal.

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