Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 51 to 75 of 98

Thread: I was mistaken: the steppe warriors rode sirens

  1. #51
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,334
    Points
    45,963
    Level
    66
    Points: 45,963, Level: 66
    Level completed: 30%, Points required for next Level: 987
    Overall activity: 45.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    @Pygmalion,
    Cyprus and/or Sardinia seem a lot more likely as the source of the culture given the similarities in the material culture, the architecture, the burials, and the documented contacts from later on.
    or Cyprus, Sardinia and El Aragar have some common source

  2. #52
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,334
    Points
    45,963
    Level
    66
    Points: 45,963, Level: 66
    Level completed: 30%, Points required for next Level: 987
    Overall activity: 45.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by ROS View Post
    The Argaric culture at least in Murcia, which is what I know, is a culture whose remains are everywhere, and there are many unexplored archaeological sites, a culture that has influenced the rest of the Iberian Peninsula, that is, not we are talking about minutiae, La Bastida is one more (impressive but one more).


    Argaric culture has been known for a long time, as I say there are remains everywhere in Murcia at least, but I think it needs to be investigated more systematically.
    La Bastida is the oldest settlement, the rest came later.
    It seems to me La Bastida was built and inhabited by the newcomers, while in the other fortifications an elite of newcomers lived to controll the surrounding local population, and their resources (fertile lands and trade routes).

  3. #53
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,084
    Points
    8,922
    Level
    28
    Points: 8,922, Level: 28
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 428
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    some plates about such lost civilization:

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/echino....el-argar2/amp/
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

  4. #54
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    11-10-16
    Posts
    274
    Points
    2,927
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,927, Level: 15
    Level completed: 59%, Points required for next Level: 123
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    Ibérico
    Country: Spain



    Argar and Los Millares are not the same, two basic distinctive notes:


    The Millares: Community life, collective burials.
    El Argar: Strongly hierarchical life, individual burials.

  5. #55
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,381
    Points
    38,396
    Level
    60
    Points: 38,396, Level: 60
    Level completed: 46%, Points required for next Level: 654
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    I agree El Argar seem the result of a new elite (males?) relatively brutal or quick introgression in S-E Iberia. The loose cultural links with Hellad could be the due to the fact that Hellad received new inputs from the same culture who sent colonizers to some Western Europe places? (I already red this and take it for my account too). I some of the Central Europe cultures of the same time or just a bit after this kind of sepulture existed if I red well surely in synthetical cultures where IE intruders and Old Europe (or rather new people from Anatolia autosomally still close enough to Old Europe people) took part : by instance in Unetice: heterogenous modes of burying, but someones in Jars like in El Argar, and evident influence of Syria/Anatolia, what is not the sign in Unetice of a pop dominantly come from there!? It could explain the links and the imperfect aspect of these links?

  6. #56
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,084
    Points
    8,922
    Level
    28
    Points: 8,922, Level: 28
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 428
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia


  7. #57
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,381
    Points
    38,396
    Level
    60
    Points: 38,396, Level: 60
    Level completed: 46%, Points required for next Level: 654
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Thanks for the links and pictures but I'm not archeologist; what ties with what do these swords or cutlasses show?

  8. #58
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,381
    Points
    38,396
    Level
    60
    Points: 38,396, Level: 60
    Level completed: 46%, Points required for next Level: 654
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    BTW the elite burials in El Argar were in cists under tumuli -

  9. #59
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    11-10-16
    Posts
    274
    Points
    2,927
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,927, Level: 15
    Level completed: 59%, Points required for next Level: 123
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    Ibérico
    Country: Spain



    Archaeological site Argárico "La Almoloya", in Pliego (Murcia):


    During the last archaeological campaign, which ended in September, dozens of tombs have been found, most of them provided with offerings. The burials are located in the basement of the same dwellings, as the researchers Emeterio Cuadrado and Juan de la Cierva already proved in the forties. A tomb stands next to the main head of the audience room, inside which the remains of a man and a woman in a flexed position have been found, accompanied by thirty rich offerings made of noble metals and semiprecious stones. One of the most relevant pieces is a silver diadem that encircles the skull of the woman, especially considering that the last ones were discovered more than 130 years ago in El Argar, and none of them is preserved today in Spain. Four ear dilators have also been found, two of solid gold and two of silver, in addition to rings, earrings, bracelets and silver nails that held the handle of a beautiful copper dagger. Also noteworthy is a ceramic cup covered by thin sheets of silver and a metal punch with a copper tip and a handle forged entirely in silver.

  10. #60
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,334
    Points
    45,963
    Level
    66
    Points: 45,963, Level: 66
    Level completed: 30%, Points required for next Level: 987
    Overall activity: 45.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    how old is the El Argar sword?
    this must be one of the oldest

  11. #61
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    30-08-17
    Posts
    176
    Points
    3,422
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,422, Level: 16
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Country: Italy



    The sword you have posted, berun, does not belong to the El Argar culture

  12. #62
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,084
    Points
    8,922
    Level
    28
    Points: 8,922, Level: 28
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 428
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    how old is the El Argar sword?
    this must be one of the oldest
    https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espada_de_Guadalajara

    not the oldest...

  13. #63
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,084
    Points
    8,922
    Level
    28
    Points: 8,922, Level: 28
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 428
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    BTW the elite burials in El Argar were in cists under tumuli -
    under tumuli? how that if the cist where placed under the floor of their homes?

  14. #64
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    30-08-17
    Posts
    176
    Points
    3,422
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,422, Level: 16
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Country: Italy



    El Argar swords are older, but they're made of arsenical copper, not bronze.

  15. #65
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,084
    Points
    8,922
    Level
    28
    Points: 8,922, Level: 28
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 428
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    El Argar survived till 1400. The sword was made with copper, it is in the file of the museum where it's exhibited.

  16. #66
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    30-08-17
    Posts
    176
    Points
    3,422
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,422, Level: 16
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Country: Italy



    Yes, but those swords date back to 1700 bc.

  17. #67
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,334
    Points
    45,963
    Level
    66
    Points: 45,963, Level: 66
    Level completed: 30%, Points required for next Level: 987
    Overall activity: 45.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    El Argar survived till 1400. The sword was made with copper, it is in the file of the museum where it's exhibited.
    if it is just copper, not bronze, it is useless in battle, it is just for parade

  18. #68
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    11-10-16
    Posts
    274
    Points
    2,927
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,927, Level: 15
    Level completed: 59%, Points required for next Level: 123
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    Ibérico
    Country: Spain


  19. #69
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    30-08-17
    Posts
    176
    Points
    3,422
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,422, Level: 16
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    if it is just copper, not bronze, it is useless in battle, it is just for parade
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenical_copper

    It was made of arsenical copper, so it was could be used as a weapon, most swords were made of arsenical copper since 3200 bc before they used actual bronze for swords

  20. #70
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,381
    Points
    38,396
    Level
    60
    Points: 38,396, Level: 60
    Level completed: 46%, Points required for next Level: 654
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    under tumuli? how that if the cist where placed under the floor of their homes?
    Sorry Berun I made a medley, maybe, by too much shorting; here under translation of Jacques BRIARD in my bad english:
    "the buryings, now, are often individual inhumations under tumulus - sometimes double: mother and child or husband and wife, united in eternity as during life - where the corpses are sprinkled with ocre, very long lasting rite. In the tumulus center, skeletons are buried into pits or little coffers 85cm of length for the biggest ones, what implies a strange gymnastic to push/force the poor corpses into them. Never the term of "forced position" will be so justified.
    But it's worst in another rite, more widespread: inhumation in jars. The dead person was pushed, as it came, its head afore, in a big egg-shape urn 40 to 70 cm of height, with funerary offerings..." (jars: an Eastern Mediterranean rite, but known at low level in Unetice)
    it could prove the funerary habits were not uniform and that different elites could have met there during this culture genesis? Changes of supremacy??? Jars from South-East, Tumuli from North or Northwest? only lowcost bets of mine.

  21. #71
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    11-10-16
    Posts
    274
    Points
    2,927
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,927, Level: 15
    Level completed: 59%, Points required for next Level: 123
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    Ibérico
    Country: Spain



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Argar

    versus

    https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilizaci%C3%B3n_mic%C3%A9nica

    It is possible that "El Argar" has influenced the Mycenaean civilization?, because if we look at the chronology:

    Argar beginning: 2200 before Christ.
    Mycenaean beginning: 1600 before Christ.

    I do not think so, but neither did the Mycenaean civilization influence "El Argar".

    That there have been commercial and even cultural exchanges? in the safe Mediterranean, in the epoch in which they coexisted, but of course the "Argárica" culture in 600 years before the Mycenaean.

    I'm sorry for my English, I say my English, what Google translates from my Spanish and I hope that what I say is understood, although I'm not sure.

    I already believe that I am understanding the Indo-European within this puzzle that is the Iberian Peninsula, now it is about revealing the mystery of the theoretically non-Indo-European areas and with more R1b of the branch theoretically coming from the steppe, starting from the south, the Tartessian Is it Celtic or is it not ?, following the east and northeast of the Iberian-Basque-Aquitanian, when the wise in the matter will be able to unveil this mystery? for the moment I do not see answers to this mystery.
    Last edited by ROS; 30-11-17 at 01:28.

  22. #72
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,084
    Points
    8,922
    Level
    28
    Points: 8,922, Level: 28
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 428
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    @MOESAN

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-P9zTZc5e-D...0/P1010211.JPG

    surely it is a bad interpretation by the author, it's not logic to make a tumulus in your floor.

    The tradition of jar burials was in use in Anatolia, surely by people with CHG admixture. So Argar burials could be a casual convergence or a fashion that spread with cists and after some centuries it was majoritary.

  23. #73
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,381
    Points
    38,396
    Level
    60
    Points: 38,396, Level: 60
    Level completed: 46%, Points required for next Level: 654
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    @MOESAN

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-P9zTZc5e-D...0/P1010211.JPG

    surely it is a bad interpretation by the author, it's not logic to make a tumulus in your floor.

    The tradition of jar burials was in use in Anatolia, surely by people with CHG admixture. So Argar burials could be a casual convergence or a fashion that spread with cists and after some centuries it was majoritary.
    I doubt this author made so a mistake, so i rather think that some variance was among El Argar burials as already mentioned (timing?) - a precise survey can focuse on a very spotty settlement and not to be representative of the whole? I don't know, I need more readings about it. I don't put your proper affirmation ni doubt.

  24. #74
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,084
    Points
    8,922
    Level
    28
    Points: 8,922, Level: 28
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 428
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Relaciones Mediterráneas de la Cultura de El Argar by HERMANFRID SCHUBART is online, I don't know if there is a more up to date similar paper.

  25. #75
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,381
    Points
    38,396
    Level
    60
    Points: 38,396, Level: 60
    Level completed: 46%, Points required for next Level: 654
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    OK Berun, I 'll read. Thanks

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •