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Thread: I was mistaken: the steppe warriors rode sirens

  1. #76
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    @Berun
    I red it. If I understood correctly, the first El Argar center had rather sepultures in Pithos, so big urns, with the head in the bottom of it, contrary to other pithos tradition of Creta, by instance; and not in external necropole but among the population.
    And in this frist center, there were no tumulus; tumuli were found rather more in North like in San Antôn de Orihuela, closer to Valencia, with dubious datations?
    and the western zone (Granada) had kept on with ancient modes of burying, before adoption of urns in later phases?
    The closer burying ways would have been found in Continental Greece, and not in Creta or in Sicilia, though in Greece there were occurrences of pithos under tumuli sometimes, what was not the case in the very Center of propragation of El Argar?
    Where does this dark brown almost undecorated pottery come from? Were there not something like that in Greece at some time of History, replacing more beautiful pottery? I'm rather poor concerning archeology...
    &: Valencia region could have been, IMO, an entry spot for some of the Y-R1b (L51/L11?) at some point; could it have had a concern with the tumuli there around those times? Only questions.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    By sure the paper might be updated with new findings, per example in Greece:
    http://www.archaeology.wiki/blog/201...valley-part-4/
    such cists and tholoi were used much more time before the Middle Helladic incinerations or cists under tumuli, and much more than the Mycaenian royal tombs.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    I think because Kura-Araxes migrating in north-western ( Balkans ) direction at the same time indo-european migrating from balkans to anatolia might skewd our perception of the migration processus. Because Kura-Araxes and their siblings used cremation, we would never found a lot about the migration process but likely Yamnaya -> R1b -> Indo-Europeans / Kura-Araxes -> J2 -> Something maybe first anatolian iron age.

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    Any new about those statements?

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    by now waiting till september to hear what says Haak in Barcelona.

    https://www.e-a-a.org/EAA2018/Progra...anizerCommon=3

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Title & Content

    Title:
    El Argar and the European Bronze Age – Rise and fall of the first state society in the western Mediterranean
    Content:
    El Argar is a unique socio-economic and political entity in the West Mediterranean between ca. 2200-1550 cal BCE. Archaeologically, it is chiefly characterized by hilltop settlements, with specialised workshops, storage rooms, large water reservoirs and other monumental buildings, as well as a very particular intramural burial ritual, organised along rather strict sex, age, and social class divides. The Argaric society went through a series of changes that led to larger and architecturally more complex urban or proto-urban centres controlling a territory of ca. 35.000 km2. Until recently, our understanding of El Argar was mainly based on the funerary evidence recovered by the Belgian engineers Henri and Louis Siret at the end of the 19th century. During the last years, large scale excavations at settlements such as La Bastida and La Almoloya are providing a much more complete picture of this society. Research carried out in the mining districts of the eastern part of Sierra Morena, as well as excavations in settlements located at the eastern fringes of the El Argar territory are also providing a better understanding of the internal differences in this vast area. Lastly, bio-anthropological evidence from isotope and ancient DNA work provides first insights into mobility, demography, kinship, and populations affinities. The aim of the session is to provide an overview of this recent research and to discuss the socio-economic and political organisation of El Argar. Contributions to this session should refer to the over-regional connections between El Argar and other contemporary Bronze Age societies.
    Keywords:
    El-Argar, Early-Bronze-Age, Southeast Iberia
    Session associated with MERC:
    no
    Session associated with CIfA:
    no
    Session associated with SAfA:
    no
    Organisers

    Main organiser:
    Prof. Dr. Roberto Risch (Spain) 1
    Co-organisers:
    Group leader Molecular Anthropology Wolfgang Haak (Germany) 2
    Visitant Professor Cristina Rihuete-Herrada (Spain) 1
    Full Professor Vicente Lull (Spain) 1
    Full Professor Rafael Micó (Spain) 1
    Affiliations:
    1. Autonomous University of Barcelona
    2. Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History (Jena)

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Title & Content

    Title:
    El Argar and the European Bronze Age – Rise and fall of the first state society in the western Mediterranean
    Content:
    El Argar is a unique socio-economic and political entity in the West Mediterranean between ca. 2200-1550 cal BCE. Archaeologically, it is chiefly characterized by hilltop settlements, with specialised workshops, storage rooms, large water reservoirs and other monumental buildings, as well as a very particular intramural burial ritual, organised along rather strict sex, age, and social class divides. The Argaric society went through a series of changes that led to larger and architecturally more complex urban or proto-urban centres controlling a territory of ca. 35.000 km2. Until recently, our understanding of El Argar was mainly based on the funerary evidence recovered by the Belgian engineers Henri and Louis Siret at the end of the 19th century. During the last years, large scale excavations at settlements such as La Bastida and La Almoloya are providing a much more complete picture of this society. Research carried out in the mining districts of the eastern part of Sierra Morena, as well as excavations in settlements located at the eastern fringes of the El Argar territory are also providing a better understanding of the internal differences in this vast area. Lastly, bio-anthropological evidence from isotope and ancient DNA work provides first insights into mobility, demography, kinship, and populations affinities. The aim of the session is to provide an overview of this recent research and to discuss the socio-economic and political organisation of El Argar. Contributions to this session should refer to the over-regional connections between El Argar and other contemporary Bronze Age societies.
    Keywords:
    El-Argar, Early-Bronze-Age, Southeast Iberia
    Session associated with MERC:
    no
    Session associated with CIfA:
    no
    Session associated with SAfA:
    no
    Organisers

    Main organiser:
    Prof. Dr. Roberto Risch (Spain) 1
    Co-organisers:
    Group leader Molecular Anthropology Wolfgang Haak (Germany) 2
    Visitant Professor Cristina Rihuete-Herrada (Spain) 1
    Full Professor Vicente Lull (Spain) 1
    Full Professor Rafael Micó (Spain) 1
    Affiliations:
    1. Autonomous University of Barcelona
    2. Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History (Jena)
    This is great. When will this take place?


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  8. #83
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    as provided in the link above this september in Barcelona

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    Worth to read (it's in Spanish), but if having problems with that the second part of the paper deals with comparative figures and photos.

    http://e-spacio.uned.es/fez/view/bib...HAG-Jacarrillo

    it's very clear that Argar Culture was instrusive, even if the author only admits cultural exchanges after looking that there are not Aegean pots (and what about Italian pots?).

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    It seems the case after finding some steppe DNA in El Argar culture (southeastern Spain):



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Argar

    the culture has some "Aegean" cultural relations, and by such epoch it's not known any continental migration towards the penninsula; and as we know now Portuguese R1b of the Bronze Age and Catalan R1b Bell Beakers had not steppe DNA, so... only sirens can explain the case!
    :)

    not kidding now: what about Mycaenians? Minoans?
    Nah, it was so-called "reflux Bell Beakers" from central Europe who were R1b Indo-Europeans and unrelated genetically to Iberian Bell Beakers. The "miscegenation [a loaded term] that constitutes the current genetic basis of the entire population of the Iberian Peninsula" simply means that it was a male-biased migration that resulted in most now in Iberia being R1b, when before they weren't. Mt-dna wouldn't show it, because the invaders/migrants were mostly males who married/interbred with local females.

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    The case is that 5 R1b Bronze Age Iberians have 0 steppe, you can argue it was lost after mating Spanish brunettes, but it's an option, a second one after Catalan BB R1b with low coverage and 0 steppe also. No matter, there are more BB samples in German lab, it works much better by sure.

    The actual "steppe" came late, with Celtics from Central Europe, nothing new with that.

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    you say: Mt-dna wouldn't show it, because the invaders/migrants were mostly males who married/interbred with local females."
    wow! females mated R1b blonde and musculated warriors and daughters didnt get any steppe fraction in autosomes!
    Just wondering what does steppitis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    The case is that 5 R1b Bronze Age Iberians have 0 steppe, you can argue it was lost after mating Spanish brunettes, but it's an option, a second one after Catalan BB R1b with low coverage and 0 steppe also. No matter, there are more BB samples in German lab, it works much better by sure.

    The actual "steppe" came late, with Celtics from Central Europe, nothing new with that.
    Send those samples to davidski at eurogenes and he will extract loads of steppe from them. I think his minimum guarantee is15%.

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    I Keep on asking because there is no proper answer I ever get here or anywhere, and I guess some of you guys should be able to...

    Question is: If Iron gates and nearby locations in Mathieson paper for southeastern europe show that those can be modeled as WHG/EHG (in various proportions), especially noticeable is the the Romanian HG (I2534) that is actually almost half/half but other are something like 80/20.... then why would the same CHG/IranN that went to Steppe, coming into these locations in southeastern europe and mixing with this EHG... would not be "falsely" represented as "steppe"?

    Does anyone knows the answer?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    I Keep on asking because there is no proper answer I ever get here or anywhere, and I guess some of you guys should be able to...

    Question is: If Iron gates and nearby locations in Mathieson paper for southeastern europe show that those can be modeled as WHG/EHG (in various proportions), especially noticeable is the the Romanian HG (I2534) that is actually almost half/half but other are something like 80/20.... then why would the same CHG/IranN that went to Steppe, coming into these locations in southeastern europe and mixing with this EHG... would not be "falsely" represented as "steppe"?

    Does anyone knows the answer?
    also had the same question in other threads. the paper that looked at myceneans also tried to model them with populations from armenia and not yamnas so i think there is a certain uncertainty about this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    also had the same question in other threads. the paper that looked at myceneans also tried to model them with populations from armenia and not yamnas so i think there is a certain uncertainty about this.
    Yes. But armenians wont cut it.
    Local romenia/Bulgaria 5th millenium will. :)

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    you say: Mt-dna wouldn't show it, because the invaders/migrants were mostly males who married/interbred with local females."
    wow! females mated R1b blonde and musculated warriors and daughters didnt get any steppe fraction in autosomes!
    Just wondering what does steppitis.
    I said nothing about autosomal DNA. Since when is auDNA part of mtDNA?

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    The paper section refered and my post was about autosomal results, you might know.

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    it's the problem of admixture and complicated modelings and fst distances and all this stuff I don't master ; what certainty?
    maybe IBD approach could tell us more?

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    THE GENETIC HISTORY OF EL ARGAR AND CONTEMPORANEOUS GROUPS OF THE SOUTHERN IBERIAN
    PENINSULA
    Author(s): Haak, Wolfgang (Max-Planck-Institute for the Science of Human History) - Rihuete-Herrada, Cristina - Oliart, Camila - Fregeiro
    Morador, Maria-Inés - Lull, Vicente - Micó, Rafael - García Atiénzar, Gabriel - Barciela, Virginia - Hernández, Mauro - Jiménez
    Echevarría, Javier - Salazar-García, Domingo C. - Risch, Roberto - Krause, Johannes (-)
    Presentation Format: Oral
    The unique position of the El Argar society in Iberia’s Early Bronze Age is well attested by archaeological research. Recent paleo-genomic studies have shed light on the genetic prehistory of the Iberian Peninsula, mainly focussing on the Mesolithic and Neolithic periods. However, the biological profiles of prehistoric individuals attributed to the El Argar and contemporaneous groups from the southern coastal regions of the peninsula have not yet been described genetically. Here, we present genome-wide data from over 70 individuals from a micro-transect through time ranging from the Late Chalcolithic to the Late Bronze Age. We observe a striking shift in the ancestry profile from the Chalcolithic to the Early Bronze Age, which is explained by the arrival of steppe ancestry in this region. The particular type of ancestry was first described in pastoralist groups from the Eurasian steppes around 5000 years ago and has subsequently spread across central and western Europe, reaching northern France and the British Isles around 2200 calBCE, where it replaced substantial parts of the local genetic ancestry. Our results show that steppe ancestry can be found in very few individuals attributed to the Bell Beaker phenomenon in the centre and north of Iberia, but in all individuals dated to El Argar and subsequent Bronze Age periods in the south. This finding not only corroborates the transformative powers of the Early Bronze Age period in the Iberian Peninsula but show that the genetic profiles of the populations in Iberia today were largely shaped during this time.
    As it will pop up sometime a biorxiv doc about the case let's do some spoiler for the waiting-bored: they have tested some 100 individuals of the Bronze Age all over the Iberian Peninsula (well, in the map Fuente Celada appears near Barcelona but it's in Central Spain), from such 100 people only 50 samples were good enough to provide profitable info: all males (some 25) were R1b, and for autosomals, they found a 5% steppe component in Neolithic samples, some 40% in BB decreasing as time went on (the most recent samples, those of Late Bronze Age samples of Minorca diplay some 20%, as do actual Spaniards).

    Well, if I got the state-of-the-art situation, from somewhere south of the Caucasus spread the CHG component to the steppe and Yamnaya, the males were all R1b-Z2103 (or older clades) and mixed there with EHG blondies, no L51, no R1a; then, without any archaeological evidence, they went north to stablish the CWC, which were all R1a; then from SW Iberian peninsula expanded the BB culture with no DNA but it was mastered fully in an unknown place by CWC people (all being R1b-L51 there otherwise and with less steppe), thereafter such L51 people expanded all over West Europe, reaching the Iberian Peninsula whitout any archaeological evidence and where many lost there their IE language by unkown reasons for a Vasconic-like one... and also loosing their steppe component quickly by vampire local women as three papers didn't find out such component except if running supervised admixtures. I suppose I'm not smart enough to catch all it and accept willingly this scenario...

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    As it will pop up sometime a biorxiv doc about the case let's do some spoiler for the waiting-bored: they have tested some 100 individuals of the Bronze Age all over the Iberian Peninsula (well, in the map Fuente Celada appears near Barcelona but it's in Central Spain), from such 100 people only 50 samples were good enough to provide profitable info: all males (some 25) were R1b, and for autosomals, they found a 5% steppe component in Neolithic samples, some 40% in BB decreasing as time went on (the most recent samples, those of Late Bronze Age samples of Minorca diplay some 20%, as do actual Spaniards).

    Well, if I got the state-of-the-art situation, from somewhere south of the Caucasus spread the CHG component to the steppe and Yamnaya, the males were all R1b-Z2103 (or older clades) and mixed there with EHG blondies, no L51, no R1a; then, without any archaeological evidence, they went north to stablish the CWC, which were all R1a; then from SW Iberian peninsula expanded the BB culture with no DNA but it was mastered fully in an unknown place by CWC people (all being R1b-L51 there otherwise and with less steppe), thereafter such L51 people expanded all over West Europe, reaching the Iberian Peninsula whitout any archaeological evidence and where many lost there their IE language by unkown reasons for a Vasconic-like one... and also loosing their steppe component quickly by vampire local women as three papers didn't find out such component except if running supervised admixtures. I suppose I'm not smart enough to catch all it and accept willingly this scenario...
    when is this study due for publication?
    do they mention the subclades of R1b in EBA Iberia?

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    some 2-3 years
    all U106

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    just kidding :)

    their next work is to check subclades, hum.

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