I was mistaken: the steppe warriors rode sirens

Title & Content

Title:
El Argar and the European Bronze Age – Rise and fall of the first state society in the western Mediterranean
Content:
El Argar is a unique socio-economic and political entity in the West Mediterranean between ca. 2200-1550 cal BCE. Archaeologically, it is chiefly characterized by hilltop settlements, with specialised workshops, storage rooms, large water reservoirs and other monumental buildings, as well as a very particular intramural burial ritual, organised along rather strict sex, age, and social class divides. The Argaric society went through a series of changes that led to larger and architecturally more complex urban or proto-urban centres controlling a territory of ca. 35.000 km2. Until recently, our understanding of El Argar was mainly based on the funerary evidence recovered by the Belgian engineers Henri and Louis Siret at the end of the 19th century. During the last years, large scale excavations at settlements such as La Bastida and La Almoloya are providing a much more complete picture of this society. Research carried out in the mining districts of the eastern part of Sierra Morena, as well as excavations in settlements located at the eastern fringes of the El Argar territory are also providing a better understanding of the internal differences in this vast area. Lastly, bio-anthropological evidence from isotope and ancient DNA work provides first insights into mobility, demography, kinship, and populations affinities. The aim of the session is to provide an overview of this recent research and to discuss the socio-economic and political organisation of El Argar. Contributions to this session should refer to the over-regional connections between El Argar and other contemporary Bronze Age societies.
Keywords:
El-Argar, Early-Bronze-Age, Southeast Iberia
Session associated with MERC:
no
Session associated with CIfA:
no
Session associated with SAfA:
no
Organisers

Main organiser:
Prof. Dr. Roberto Risch (Spain) 1
Co-organisers:
Group leader Molecular Anthropology Wolfgang Haak (Germany) 2
Visitant Professor Cristina Rihuete-Herrada (Spain) 1
Full Professor Vicente Lull (Spain) 1
Full Professor Rafael Micó (Spain) 1
Affiliations:
1. Autonomous University of Barcelona
2. Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History (Jena)
 
Title & Content

Title:
El Argar and the European Bronze Age – Rise and fall of the first state society in the western Mediterranean
Content:
El Argar is a unique socio-economic and political entity in the West Mediterranean between ca. 2200-1550 cal BCE. Archaeologically, it is chiefly characterized by hilltop settlements, with specialised workshops, storage rooms, large water reservoirs and other monumental buildings, as well as a very particular intramural burial ritual, organised along rather strict sex, age, and social class divides. The Argaric society went through a series of changes that led to larger and architecturally more complex urban or proto-urban centres controlling a territory of ca. 35.000 km2. Until recently, our understanding of El Argar was mainly based on the funerary evidence recovered by the Belgian engineers Henri and Louis Siret at the end of the 19th century. During the last years, large scale excavations at settlements such as La Bastida and La Almoloya are providing a much more complete picture of this society. Research carried out in the mining districts of the eastern part of Sierra Morena, as well as excavations in settlements located at the eastern fringes of the El Argar territory are also providing a better understanding of the internal differences in this vast area. Lastly, bio-anthropological evidence from isotope and ancient DNA work provides first insights into mobility, demography, kinship, and populations affinities. The aim of the session is to provide an overview of this recent research and to discuss the socio-economic and political organisation of El Argar. Contributions to this session should refer to the over-regional connections between El Argar and other contemporary Bronze Age societies.
Keywords:
El-Argar, Early-Bronze-Age, Southeast Iberia
Session associated with MERC:
no
Session associated with CIfA:
no
Session associated with SAfA:
no
Organisers

Main organiser:
Prof. Dr. Roberto Risch (Spain) 1
Co-organisers:
Group leader Molecular Anthropology Wolfgang Haak (Germany) 2
Visitant Professor Cristina Rihuete-Herrada (Spain) 1
Full Professor Vicente Lull (Spain) 1
Full Professor Rafael Micó (Spain) 1
Affiliations:
1. Autonomous University of Barcelona
2. Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History (Jena)

This is great. When will this take place?
 
as provided in the link above this september in Barcelona
 
Worth to read (it's in Spanish), but if having problems with that the second part of the paper deals with comparative figures and photos.

http://e-spacio.uned.es/fez/view/bibliuned:master-GH-MTAIHAG-Jacarrillo

it's very clear that Argar Culture was instrusive, even if the author only admits cultural exchanges after looking that there are not Aegean pots (and what about Italian pots?).
 
It seems the case after finding some steppe DNA in El Argar culture (southeastern Spain):



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Argar

the culture has some "Aegean" cultural relations, and by such epoch it's not known any continental migration towards the penninsula; and as we know now Portuguese R1b of the Bronze Age and Catalan R1b Bell Beakers had not steppe DNA, so... only sirens can explain the case!
:)

not kidding now: what about Mycaenians? Minoans?

Nah, it was so-called "reflux Bell Beakers" from central Europe who were R1b Indo-Europeans and unrelated genetically to Iberian Bell Beakers. The "miscegenation [a loaded term] that constitutes the current genetic basis of the entire population of the Iberian Peninsula" simply means that it was a male-biased migration that resulted in most now in Iberia being R1b, when before they weren't. Mt-dna wouldn't show it, because the invaders/migrants were mostly males who married/interbred with local females.
 
The case is that 5 R1b Bronze Age Iberians have 0 steppe, you can argue it was lost after mating Spanish brunettes, but it's an option, a second one after Catalan BB R1b with low coverage and 0 steppe also. No matter, there are more BB samples in German lab, it works much better by sure.

The actual "steppe" came late, with Celtics from Central Europe, nothing new with that.
 
you say: Mt-dna wouldn't show it, because the invaders/migrants were mostly males who married/interbred with local females."
wow! females mated R1b blonde and musculated warriors and daughters didnt get any steppe fraction in autosomes!
Just wondering what does steppitis. :LOL:
 
The case is that 5 R1b Bronze Age Iberians have 0 steppe, you can argue it was lost after mating Spanish brunettes, but it's an option, a second one after Catalan BB R1b with low coverage and 0 steppe also. No matter, there are more BB samples in German lab, it works much better by sure.

The actual "steppe" came late, with Celtics from Central Europe, nothing new with that.

Send those samples to davidski at eurogenes and he will extract loads of steppe from them. I think his minimum guarantee is15%.
 
I Keep on asking because there is no proper answer I ever get here or anywhere, and I guess some of you guys should be able to...

Question is: If Iron gates and nearby locations in Mathieson paper for southeastern europe show that those can be modeled as WHG/EHG (in various proportions), especially noticeable is the the Romanian HG (I2534) that is actually almost half/half but other are something like 80/20.... then why would the same CHG/IranN that went to Steppe, coming into these locations in southeastern europe and mixing with this EHG... would not be "falsely" represented as "steppe"?

Does anyone knows the answer?
 
I Keep on asking because there is no proper answer I ever get here or anywhere, and I guess some of you guys should be able to...

Question is: If Iron gates and nearby locations in Mathieson paper for southeastern europe show that those can be modeled as WHG/EHG (in various proportions), especially noticeable is the the Romanian HG (I2534) that is actually almost half/half but other are something like 80/20.... then why would the same CHG/IranN that went to Steppe, coming into these locations in southeastern europe and mixing with this EHG... would not be "falsely" represented as "steppe"?

Does anyone knows the answer?

also had the same question in other threads. the paper that looked at myceneans also tried to model them with populations from armenia and not yamnas so i think there is a certain uncertainty about this.
 
also had the same question in other threads. the paper that looked at myceneans also tried to model them with populations from armenia and not yamnas so i think there is a certain uncertainty about this.
Yes. But armenians wont cut it.
Local romenia/Bulgaria 5th millenium will. :)
 
you say: Mt-dna wouldn't show it, because the invaders/migrants were mostly males who married/interbred with local females."
wow! females mated R1b blonde and musculated warriors and daughters didnt get any steppe fraction in autosomes!
Just wondering what does steppitis. :LOL:

I said nothing about autosomal DNA. Since when is auDNA part of mtDNA?
 
The paper section refered and my post was about autosomal results, you might know.
 
it's the problem of admixture and complicated modelings and fst distances and all this stuff I don't master ; what certainty?
maybe IBD approach could tell us more?
 
THE GENETIC HISTORY OF EL ARGAR AND CONTEMPORANEOUS GROUPS OF THE SOUTHERN IBERIAN
PENINSULA
Author(s): Haak, Wolfgang (Max-Planck-Institute for the Science of Human History) - Rihuete-Herrada, Cristina - Oliart, Camila - Fregeiro
Morador, Maria-Inés - Lull, Vicente - Micó, Rafael - García Atiénzar, Gabriel - Barciela, Virginia - Hernández, Mauro - Jiménez
Echevarría, Javier - Salazar-García, Domingo C. - Risch, Roberto - Krause, Johannes (-)
Presentation Format: Oral
The unique position of the El Argar society in Iberia’s Early Bronze Age is well attested by archaeological research. Recent paleo-genomic studies have shed light on the genetic prehistory of the Iberian Peninsula, mainly focussing on the Mesolithic and Neolithic periods. However, the biological profiles of prehistoric individuals attributed to the El Argar and contemporaneous groups from the southern coastal regions of the peninsula have not yet been described genetically. Here, we present genome-wide data from over 70 individuals from a micro-transect through time ranging from the Late Chalcolithic to the Late Bronze Age. We observe a striking shift in the ancestry profile from the Chalcolithic to the Early Bronze Age, which is explained by the arrival of steppe ancestry in this region. The particular type of ancestry was first described in pastoralist groups from the Eurasian steppes around 5000 years ago and has subsequently spread across central and western Europe, reaching northern France and the British Isles around 2200 calBCE, where it replaced substantial parts of the local genetic ancestry. Our results show that steppe ancestry can be found in very few individuals attributed to the Bell Beaker phenomenon in the centre and north of Iberia, but in all individuals dated to El Argar and subsequent Bronze Age periods in the south. This finding not only corroborates the transformative powers of the Early Bronze Age period in the Iberian Peninsula but show that the genetic profiles of the populations in Iberia today were largely shaped during this time.

As it will pop up sometime a biorxiv doc about the case let's do some spoiler for the waiting-bored: they have tested some 100 individuals of the Bronze Age all over the Iberian Peninsula (well, in the map Fuente Celada appears near Barcelona but it's in Central Spain), from such 100 people only 50 samples were good enough to provide profitable info: all males (some 25) were R1b, and for autosomals, they found a 5% steppe component in Neolithic samples, some 40% in BB decreasing as time went on (the most recent samples, those of Late Bronze Age samples of Minorca diplay some 20%, as do actual Spaniards).

Well, if I got the state-of-the-art situation, from somewhere south of the Caucasus spread the CHG component to the steppe and Yamnaya, the males were all R1b-Z2103 (or older clades) and mixed there with EHG blondies, no L51, no R1a; then, without any archaeological evidence, they went north to stablish the CWC, which were all R1a; then from SW Iberian peninsula expanded the BB culture with no DNA but it was mastered fully in an unknown place by CWC people (all being R1b-L51 there otherwise and with less steppe), thereafter such L51 people expanded all over West Europe, reaching the Iberian Peninsula whitout any archaeological evidence and where many lost there their IE language by unkown reasons for a Vasconic-like one... and also loosing their steppe component quickly by vampire local women as three papers didn't find out such component except if running supervised admixtures. I suppose I'm not smart enough to catch all it and accept willingly this scenario...
 
As it will pop up sometime a biorxiv doc about the case let's do some spoiler for the waiting-bored: they have tested some 100 individuals of the Bronze Age all over the Iberian Peninsula (well, in the map Fuente Celada appears near Barcelona but it's in Central Spain), from such 100 people only 50 samples were good enough to provide profitable info: all males (some 25) were R1b, and for autosomals, they found a 5% steppe component in Neolithic samples, some 40% in BB decreasing as time went on (the most recent samples, those of Late Bronze Age samples of Minorca diplay some 20%, as do actual Spaniards).

Well, if I got the state-of-the-art situation, from somewhere south of the Caucasus spread the CHG component to the steppe and Yamnaya, the males were all R1b-Z2103 (or older clades) and mixed there with EHG blondies, no L51, no R1a; then, without any archaeological evidence, they went north to stablish the CWC, which were all R1a; then from SW Iberian peninsula expanded the BB culture with no DNA but it was mastered fully in an unknown place by CWC people (all being R1b-L51 there otherwise and with less steppe), thereafter such L51 people expanded all over West Europe, reaching the Iberian Peninsula whitout any archaeological evidence and where many lost there their IE language by unkown reasons for a Vasconic-like one... and also loosing their steppe component quickly by vampire local women as three papers didn't find out such component except if running supervised admixtures. I suppose I'm not smart enough to catch all it and accept willingly this scenario...

when is this study due for publication?
do they mention the subclades of R1b in EBA Iberia?
 
some 2-3 years
all U106
 
just kidding :)

their next work is to check subclades, hum.
 

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