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Thread: I was mistaken: the steppe warriors rode sirens

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.

    I was mistaken: the steppe warriors rode sirens

    It seems the case after finding some steppe DNA in El Argar culture (southeastern Spain):

    Researchers at the Autonomous University of Barcelona work with this theory in the absence of geneticists to complete the study of DNA
    l. or. 18.11.2017 | 04:00

    The key to the genetic origin of the Spaniards could be Murcia. And it is that the Argaric archaeological sites of La Bastida, located in Totana, and that of La Almoloya, of Pliego, `could have given rise to all the natives of our country.

    Researchers from the Autonomous University of Barcelona who work in the fields contemplate it and assure that it is about to be confirmed by the geneticists who analyze the nuclear DNA samples from both sites, as reported by the Ser de Murcia chain on its website.

    In the Almoloya, within the framework of the Argar culture, in the Bronze Age, the miscegenation that constitutes the current genetic basis of the entire population of the Iberian Peninsula, according to the researchers, took place.

    According to the team of the Autonomous University of Barcelona, ​​the men who came from outside came from the south of present-day Russia. The change was not only genetic, because everything points, according to archaeological research, to the importance of women in that society of the Argar culture was much more socially and politically relevant than it was after.

    The archaeologists of the Autonomous University of Barcelona (UAB) who have been digging up the secrets of the archaeological site of La Bastida (Totana) for nine years, the largest in Europe of the Argaric culture and known as 'La Troya de Occidente', are considering abandoning their work for lack of economic support by the regional government of Murcia. La Bastida was a walled city of about a thousand inhabitants, the largest of that time in Western Europe, which has only been excavated by 10 percent.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Argar

    the culture has some "Aegean" cultural relations, and by such epoch it's not known any continental migration towards the penninsula; and as we know now Portuguese R1b of the Bronze Age and Catalan R1b Bell Beakers had not steppe DNA, so... only sirens can explain the case!
    :)

    not kidding now: what about Mycaenians? Minoans?
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    it seems to me that the El Argar culture originated in La Bastida, and that the founders of La Bastida came from elsewhere
    they seem to have brought the bronze age to Iberia

    it would be very interesting to have the DNA of these folks and to compare it with other anciant Iberian DNA and to try and find out where their DNA came from

    guesswork without the DNA is rather pointless

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    well, if genetists say that the male outsiders came from south Russia must be because they have found R1a or R1b or CHG or CHG+EHG signals... but of course it is worth to wait the paper as many times conclusions are delivered taking proofs with no care at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    well, if genetists say that the male outsiders came from south Russia must be because they have found R1a or R1b or CHG or CHG+EHG signals... but of course it is worth to wait the paper as many times conclusions are delivered taking proofs with no care at all.
    more precisely, it should be R1b-M269 as they claim
    'In the Almoloya, within the framework of the Argar culture, in the Bronze Age, the miscegenation that constitutes the current genetic basis of the entire population of the Iberian Peninsula, according to the researchers, took place.'

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
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    Wow, look at it. More indications of Steppe arrival in Iberia. You world is crumbling down fast. I wonder, if one day you will have a courage to admit you were wrong, or you just going to vanish in shame?
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    This is a little strange.

    I don't know what the y will show, but the big, recent study on ancient mtDna that just came out says the opposite. It says that:

    "Around 2200 BCE, the emergence of El Argar groups was evidently preceded by a break in Chalcolithic cultural traditions in southeast Iberia. Yet there are no apparent new influences or signals of substantial population change on the mtDNA haplogroup level at this time, so that the observed changes may either be due to an upheaval of existing social structures or an influx of groups that cannot be distinguished from the local population at the present level of genetic resolution, e.g., from southeastern Europe, as previously proposed for El Argar. Unraveling these apparently contradictory data will certainly require further in depth analyses both on the archaeological and the archaeogenetic level."

    See: Anna Szecsenyi-Nagy, Christina Roth, Brandt Guido, Wolfgang Haak, Kurt W. AltThe maternal genetic make-up of the Iberian Peninsula between the Neolithic and the Early Bronze Age

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/02/10/106963

    Plus, the eastern part of Spain still spoke Iberian languages when the Romans arrived. The Celtic "Indo-European" steppe languages are on the other side of Iberia, the western side, which would make sense with an arrival from central Europe, probably France.



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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    It seems the case after finding some steppe DNA in El Argar culture (southeastern Spain):



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Argar

    the culture has some "Aegean" cultural relations, and by such epoch it's not known any continental migration towards the penninsula; and as we know now Portuguese R1b of the Bronze Age and Catalan R1b Bell Beakers had not steppe DNA, so... only sirens can explain the case!
    :)

    not kidding now: what about Mycaenians? Minoans?
    The Portugese R1b do show a shift to the steppe as some third parties like Davidski have shown, even though it is considerably smaller than central Europe. This is because the mithochondrial pool stayed largely the same, and we have an influx of males who took local mates. I'm not sure what is difficult to understand about that. Mycenae show a similar shift. Perhaps these were the same men?

    Even today, a huge component of continental Europeans show plenty of admixture from EEF. Even the central European Bell Beaker graves demonstrate this. If you proxy these as hypothetical ancestors, and then combine it with local admixture with females in Spain and other regions of southern Europe, you will have considerably less steppe ancestry.

    R1b-M269 hasn't turned up in any Neolithic graves nor anything before that. What exactly is up for debate here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Wow, look at it. More indications of Steppe arrival in Iberia. You world is crumbling down fast. I wonder, if one day you will have a courage to admit you were wrong, or you just going to vanish in shame?
    well, what to say?

    Attachment 9454

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    http://dienekes.blogspot.be/2012/09/...fortified.html
    La Bastida was built 4 ka on a hill. There was a 200-year farmers village on this hill which was destroyed and burned down prior to the construction of La Bastida.
    La Bastida brought many new elements that were not known in Iberia prior to 4 ka : bronze metallurgy, the La Bastida fortifications architecture reminiscent of the Levant and Troj and burials in jars.
    It looks like they were not so friendly intruders from outside Iberia.
    From here bronze metallurgy spread over Iberia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    http://dienekes.blogspot.be/2012/09/...fortified.html
    La Bastida was built 4 ka on a hill. There was a 200-year farmers village on this hill which was destroyed and burned down prior to the construction of La Bastida.
    La Bastida brought many new elements that were not known in Iberia prior to 4 ka : bronze metallurgy, the La Bastida fortifications architecture reminiscent of the Levant and Troj and burials in jars.
    It looks like they were not so friendly intruders from outside Iberia.
    Indeed, but it would have been a male mediated change given the results of the large ancient mtDna study. Where those males might have been from is another issue. I always favored either southeastern Europe and perhaps more specifically the Aegean for the El Argar culture, given the cultural signs and that this was a sea borne migration. I also thought that might have been the entry point for J2 lineages into Iberia. I guess we'll see.

    Of course, that doesn't mean there weren't those migrations of Indo-European speakers from Central Europe, because there were. I have always thought that was a western Iberian thing more than an eastern European thing, and that it came from Central Europe, especially given the language distribution.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Argar#Related_cultures



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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    in the audio the archaelogists explain what are getting geneticists..... they tested mtDNA and nuclear DNA, females were local EEF and males no, being surely outsiders from South Russia, akin to those in Balkans, Ireland and Portugal. The admixture of such females and males provided the actual gene pool in Spain.
    And true, it's kinda strange to change your kurgan for a big jar or a cist below the floor of your home.

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    Awesome!


    But of course in Murcia part of "the bastida" (which is the most impressive found so far, with only 10% excavated) there are many Argar archaeological sites without investigating, given the evidence would be necessary an investigation no longer with funds of the autonomous community, but with State and even European funds.

    I do not want to anticipate, but could it be the majority of the haplogroups Y R1B and mitochondrial H1 and a steppe mix of 25% after combining invaders and premises?



    I think 25% is little, taking into account that it is supposed to be the origin of genetic pull in the Iberian peninsula, I would bet for 35% steppe.

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    It might have been the first IE wave that reached Iberia, but not necessarily closely related with later Celts. We should jump into big conclusions yet.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    So the Indo Europeans relied on deadly Greek mermaids with beautiful, sailor attracting voices to get them to Iberia? ;)
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    To me it's necessary to look at rough data, Minoans and pre-Mycaenians had a late CHG component, if it spread in SE Spain through colonies looking for ores, such signal could be taken as steppe-like, but far to be truly so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    in the audio the archaelogists explain what are getting geneticists..... they tested mtDNA and nuclear DNA, females were local EEF and males no, being surely outsiders from South Russia, akin to those in Balkans, Ireland and Portugal. The admixture of such females and males provided the actual gene pool in Spain.
    And true, it's kinda strange to change your kurgan for a big jar or a cist below the floor of your home.
    it seems IE entered Europe via many different routes, but only a few of them expanded inside Europe and replaced many others

    the time frame seems to be right, 4 ka is the time the expanding Sintashta and Srubnaya was replacing the Yamna and Catacomb folks on the steppe

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    the time is that involving the occupation of Greece by the IE proto-Mycaenians, and that could trigger the migration of locals as refugees in colonies afar, if the Argar language was IE or Pelasgian it will depend if the admixture included some EHG, if done with CHG alone it would not be IE, but it could mimic an steppe admixture if found together with the high WHG component of Chalco Iberia.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    the time is that involving the occupation of Greece by the IE proto-Mycaenians, and that could trigger the migration of locals as refugees in colonies afar, if the Argar language was IE or Pelasgian it will depend if the admixture included some EHG, if done with CHG alone it would not be IE, but it could mimic an steppe admixture if found together with the high WHG component of Chalco Iberia.
    My admixtures calculation was showing that the first IE could have arrived to Iberia via Balkans (Hungarian Bronze Age), and not from North West Europe. Lets wait and see. Soon everything will be revealed.

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    By now I prefer to rely on archaeology: the first continental spreads are the Atlantic Bronze (from West France?) providing Lusitanian and Galaican (??), and Urnfield (S Germany - Austria) providing Celtiberian. By the way as far as I know there is no proof about any IE language in SW Spain prior to the Roman rule.

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    Yes. Only portugal with lusitanian.

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    There is absolutely no evidence for direct contacts taking place during the El Argar phase between people from the Aegean and Iberians, there is only a handful of Mycenaean sherds dating back to 14-13th century bc in Iberia, so much later than the El Argar period.

    Later there are some Cypriot objects found in Iberia belonging to an even later phase (12-9th century bc) that according to F.Lo Schiavo, Bernardini and other experts were actually Sardinian imitations or at least mediated by Sardinians.

    There is absolutely no evidence for direct contact between Minoans and the people of El Argar, the Minoan culture ended during the 15th century bc due to the Mycenans taking over the island.

    It is really unlikely that Minoans arrived in Iberia without leaving one pottery shred and bypassing Sicily and Sardinia, as I've said above the only few Aegean pottery shreds found in Iberia belong to the Mycenaean phase, and it's just a handful that could've arrived there non directly through a third party.

    To my knowledge Minoans barely made it to Apulia and stop, and even then they didn't leave much traces compared to the later Mycenaeans.

    The only Western culture that probably had contacts witht he El Argar people were the early Nuragics of Sardinia, which used a type of arsenical bronze swords (Sant'Iroxi) which was obviously influenced by the El Argar swords.

    El Argar was a local development, which originated from the Los Millares culture, a culture by far older than even the pre-palatial Minoans, later alone Minoans proper, another note: their swords had nothing to do with Aegean swords, the fact that they were buried in cists is probably just a coincidence, that aside their material culture is completely different from the Aegean one, both pottery and weapons.

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    I'm aware about the lack of proofs for Aegean contacts, but there are things that after looking at papers about El Argar could support a colonist scenario: archaeologists are shy to say it but citadels are copies of Minoan palaces, also the previous Millares architecture is very different, Los Millares vanished by 2250, Argar pop up suddenly by 2200, apparition of bronze objects, end of colective burials under tumulus and start of individual burials under the floor on cist or jar, and ceramics are not so important if migration is male based (miners and smiths) as local women would have their own ceramics or traditions.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    "and ceramics are not so important if migration is male based (miners and smiths) as local women would have their own ceramics or traditions."

    Not really, any other migration (Greeks, Phoenicians) has left behind ample material proof, starting from thousands upon thousands of ceramics, even if they were male based.

    "
    archaeologists are shy to say it but citadels are copies of Minoan palaces"

    They don't see very shy to me, they seem too eager to prove this supposed connection which to me seems completely imagined, the appearance of cists burials doesn't mean much and could very well be a coincidence.

    I don't see any particular resemblance between El Argar towns and Minoan ones, to mention that Minoan culture barely existed back in 2200 bc, it was its very first steps, and all its defining features (frescoes, massive palaces, written language) weren't still around.

    It seems very weird to me that a group capable of displacing the locals didn't leave one single Aegean idol in Iberia, or any Minoan pottery shred or other Minoan like object, and the swords too are completely different from early Aegean swords.

    I'm amazed that some archaeologists could make such an assertion upon a feature that could very be developed independently, I'm really amazed, when I looked up into the supposed proofs of this "Minoan colonization" and I found that there isn't any aside from features that could be explained locally I was speechless that some archaeologists really proposed this.

    Just look at Phoenician colonization, just in Huelva Phoenicians left like 3,000 shreds in the very first phase of colonization



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