I was mistaken: the steppe warriors rode sirens

Yes. Only portugal with lusitanian.
 
There is absolutely no evidence for direct contacts taking place during the El Argar phase between people from the Aegean and Iberians, there is only a handful of Mycenaean sherds dating back to 14-13th century bc in Iberia, so much later than the El Argar period.

Later there are some Cypriot objects found in Iberia belonging to an even later phase (12-9th century bc) that according to F.Lo Schiavo, Bernardini and other experts were actually Sardinian imitations or at least mediated by Sardinians.

There is absolutely no evidence for direct contact between Minoans and the people of El Argar, the Minoan culture ended during the 15th century bc due to the Mycenans taking over the island.

It is really unlikely that Minoans arrived in Iberia without leaving one pottery shred and bypassing Sicily and Sardinia, as I've said above the only few Aegean pottery shreds found in Iberia belong to the Mycenaean phase, and it's just a handful that could've arrived there non directly through a third party.

To my knowledge Minoans barely made it to Apulia and stop, and even then they didn't leave much traces compared to the later Mycenaeans.

The only Western culture that probably had contacts witht he El Argar people were the early Nuragics of Sardinia, which used a type of arsenical bronze swords (Sant'Iroxi) which was obviously influenced by the El Argar swords.

El Argar was a local development, which originated from the Los Millares culture, a culture by far older than even the pre-palatial Minoans, later alone Minoans proper, another note: their swords had nothing to do with Aegean swords, the fact that they were buried in cists is probably just a coincidence, that aside their material culture is completely different from the Aegean one, both pottery and weapons.
 
I'm aware about the lack of proofs for Aegean contacts, but there are things that after looking at papers about El Argar could support a colonist scenario: archaeologists are shy to say it but citadels are copies of Minoan palaces, also the previous Millares architecture is very different, Los Millares vanished by 2250, Argar pop up suddenly by 2200, apparition of bronze objects, end of colective burials under tumulus and start of individual burials under the floor on cist or jar, and ceramics are not so important if migration is male based (miners and smiths) as local women would have their own ceramics or traditions.
 
"and ceramics are not so important if migration is male based (miners and smiths) as local women would have their own ceramics or traditions."

Not really, any other migration (Greeks, Phoenicians) has left behind ample material proof, starting from thousands upon thousands of ceramics, even if they were male based.

"
archaeologists are shy to say it but citadels are copies of Minoan palaces"

They don't see very shy to me, they seem too eager to prove this supposed connection which to me seems completely imagined, the appearance of cists burials doesn't mean much and could very well be a coincidence.

I don't see any particular resemblance between El Argar towns and Minoan ones, to mention that Minoan culture barely existed back in 2200 bc, it was its very first steps, and all its defining features (frescoes, massive palaces, written language) weren't still around.

It seems very weird to me that a group capable of displacing the locals didn't leave one single Aegean idol in Iberia, or any Minoan pottery shred or other Minoan like object, and the swords too are completely different from early Aegean swords.

I'm amazed that some archaeologists could make such an assertion upon a feature that could very be developed independently, I'm really amazed, when I looked up into the supposed proofs of this "Minoan colonization" and I found that there isn't any aside from features that could be explained locally I was speechless that some archaeologists really proposed this.

Just look at Phoenician colonization, just in Huelva Phoenicians left like 3,000 shreds in the very first phase of colonization


 
ceramics were a luxury item traded by Phoenicians and Greeks, it is not the same case if you are a colonist or miner.
 
Vaguely, like any other arsenical copper sword.

Their material culture is vastly different, the emergence of individual burials could be easily explained with the local development of bronze technology
 
They weren't luxury item necessarily, Phoenicians and Greeks traveled with every kind of pottery from cooking pots to jars, in every single colonization the migrants brought a lot of pottery, not only that but they started making it themselves on the spot along with the local.

If we look at the Phoenicians colonization of Andalusia, every excavated Phoenician settlement presented thousands upon thousands of Phoenician pottery shreds and other Phoenician objects like looms, pendants, etc.

Same thing with the Greeks.

Colonization movements can be easily traced, no way on earth Minoan colonized Andalusia without bringing their material culture along, to me it's an obvious case of convergence.
 
According to the professors of the Autonomous University, the men of the Algar culture have their origin in the steppes and come to the Iberian Peninsula through ?Ireland!, Galicia and Portugal, being the women of a more Neolithic mixture, that Does this have to do with the Minoics or Mycenaeans?

They also comment that while in central Europe the Neolithic invasion practically eliminated the previous hunter-gatherers, in the Iberian Peninsula there was a mixture between hunter-gatherers and Neolithic, where is this mixture of hunter gatherer today ?.
 
the archaeologists "translated" the genetic results got by geneticists after computing it with the actual Reichist steppemania.

for hunter gatherers I suppose that they rely on information about an increase of the WHG component in the Chalco.
 
In this forum I recognize that it is possibly the one with the least academic training in these subjects, but my curiosity about history has led me to visit this and other forums, I know that here there are good professionals, also some agendas that eventually the truth always triumphs today, tomorrow, or in 20 or 40 years, hence they are wasting their time, because in these subjects one should try to shine the truth and only the truth.

But of course I am an amateur with curiosity about history, when I consider the view of the pre-Roman Iberian peninsula, it really is a puzzle, because we observe that the natural connection with Europe through the two Pyrenean coasts of the Basque and Catalan They meet with non-Indo-European, Basque and Iberian languages ​​and in the interior we find several Celtic and non-Celtic languages ​​but if Indo-European -> Lusitano and Vent?n among others, how is this variety of non-Celtic Celtic proven Indo-European languages ​​cohabiting with languages ​​like the Iberian, tart?sico, Basque, not Indo-European ?.

Iberian and Tartessian languages ​​with their own writing?

This puzzle can be explained in part by the condition of the Iberian peninsula of having collected atlantic, mediterranean and central european influences.

Lately it was thought that the Iberian peninsula was the origin and repopulation of Europe (I do not rule out that it was so after the glaciation), but that is ruled out, there were legends in Ireland that came from the Iberian Peninsula, that was ruled out, but great is that it is the reverse that part of the population of the Iberian peninsula comes from Ireland, this being true explains many things of the Iberian puzzle, for example change of language in the inner part of the peninsula (the Visigothic did not manage to change the language ) and in the natural steps towards Europe non-Indo-European language, the Q-Celtic languages of the peninsula, these did not come from France clearly, but I think from Ireland.


In short, this new contribution of the Catalan professors in the international research in which they are found has given me some light in the tunnel of the Iberian puzzle.

Sorry for the text so long, also with Google translations is a bit like what I want to say.



The only thing that does not fit into this history of Argaric culture is that architecture so brutal in this remote age coming from Ireland, surely the architects were Neolithic women.




 
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No Celts came from Ireland to populate Spain. That's as incorrect as the old idea that Iberians migrated to the British Isles. Pre or Proto Celtic spread from somewhere in central Europe. From there it went to the British Isles. From Central Europe it also went down through France and into Spain. There was no large scale migration from Ireland to Iberia. It didn't happen.

Tartessian:
"Tartessian is generally left unclassified, due to lack of data, or proposed to be a language isolate due to an absence of connections to the Indo-European languages.[20][21] Some Tartessian names have been interpreted as Indo-European or more specifically as Celtic.[22]However, the language as a whole remains inexplicable from the Celtic or Indo-European point of view; the structure of Tartessian syllables appears to be incompatible with Celtic or even Indo-European phonetics, and more compatible with Iberian or Basque; any Celtic elements are thought to be borrowings by some scholars.[23]Since 2009, John T. Koch has argued that Tartessian is a Celtic language and that the texts can be translated.[24][25][26][27] Koch's thesis has been popularised by the BBC TV series The Celts[28] and the associated book by Alice Roberts.[29] However, his proposals have been regarded with scepticism by academic linguists and the script, which is "hardly suitable for the denotation of an Indo-European language[,] leaves ample room for interpretation."[30]"


See also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_language

Mapa_lleng%C3%BCes_paleohisp%C3%A0niques-ang.jpg



We have to distinguish between Los Millares and El Argar, and we'll have to wait for the release of the ancient dna to figure out who settled Los Millares and subsequently .
El Argar.

Archaeological evidence has not been very dispositive, but what there was seemed to indicate an origin somewhere to the east.

At the time of the emergence of Los Millares there were no steppe groups who were building settlements like this:


Los_Millares_MS08_dibujo_reconst.1_texto_web.JPG


"
Los Millares participated in the continental trends of Megalithism and the Beaker culture. Analysis of occupation material and grave goods from the Los Millares cemetery of 70 tholos tombs with port-hole slabs has led archaeologists to suggest that the people who lived at Los Millares were part of a stratified, unequal society which was often at war with its neighbours. The Los Millares civilisation was replaced circa 1800 BC, with the arrival of Bronze by the El Argar civilisation, whose successor culture is embodied in the contemporary culture of Vila Nova de São Pedro in nearby Portugal.

Other Iberian settlements in this region of a similar age to Los Millares include the settlement of Los Silillos and Neolithic finds at Cabrera (es).[5]
Similarities between Los Millares architecture and the step pyramid at Monte d'Accoddi in Sardinia have been noticed."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Millares

If I'm remembering correctly, Jean Manco used to hold that Los Millares might have been built by prospectors and miners from the Balkans, i.e. Old Europe.

El Argar is 2200 BC. It is the beginning of the Bronze Age proper in Spain. I'm not aware of any steppe related groups at that time, and certainly not in 3000 BC who had a sea faring culture. Nor am I aware of them building anything remotely looking like this even in 2200 BC:
6_600x400.jpg


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Argar

"The collective burial tradition typical of European Megalithic Culture is abandoned in favor of individual burials. The tholos is abandoned in favour of small cists, either under the homes or outside. This trend seems to come from the Eastern Mediterranean, most likely from Mycenaean Greece (skipping Sicilyand Italy, where the collective burial tradition remains for some time yet).

From the Argarian civilization, these new burial customs will gradually and irregularly extend to the rest of Iberia.
In the phase B of this civilization, burial in pithoi (large jars) becomes most frequent (see: Jar-burials). Again this custom (that never reached beyond the Argarian circle) seems to come from Greece, where it was used after. ca 2000 BC."



  • Mycenaean Greece: some cultural exchanges across the Mediterranean are very clear, with Argarians adopting Greek funerary customs (individual burials, first in cist and then in pithos), while Greeks also import the Iberian tholos for the same purpose.

Still, the ancient dna will sort it out. Whatever it is, it is.
 
the first settlement was La Bastida, the other El Argar settlements came later

the Iberian Celts - at least those that were in Iberia during the Punic wars are supposed to have arrived in the 6th cent BC - between Hallstadt and La Tene period

nevertheless, the report claims that mixture of incoming El Argar people with local population gave way to present day Iberian population
 
@Angela what you explain is what was believed until now, that is why what these Catalan professors say is revolutionary.
 
In 2000-1800 bc Mycenaean Greece wasn't even a thing, they were not a significant power until the 15th century bc when they conquered Crete, it's pure speculation and I really doubt the semi tribal chiefdoms in what was then mainland Greece had the ability to launch a colonization campaign 1,000 kilometers away from their homeland.

Again, to anybody who is familiar with archaeological papers about prehistoric migrations, be it Greeks in the bronze age and iron age, Phoenicians in the iron age, etc. the colonizers leave behind a lot of material evidence, if a migration took place the evidence would be there, however there isn't any.

Things like rectangular buildings were common in all proto urban and urban societies, from the Levant, to Greece and to Italy, and can all be explained as a convergence phenomenon, as well as the burial in cists.

Even sporadic contacts without any colonization left behind a lot of material evidence in Italy, see for example those between Greeks and South Italy during the late bronze age, how could a full fledged colonization movement to Spain leave no proof behind?
 
if you apply all it to the demic expansion of the IE protolanguage I think you will face a big problem... take per example the Mycaeneans, from where they came? which material proofs can you provide?
 
if you apply all it to the demic expansion of the IE protolanguage I think you will face a big problem... take per example the Mycaeneans, from where they came? which material proofs can you provide?

To the IE Expansion?

There is loads of evidence for Helladic Greece receiving some outside influence from the IE cultures around the Danube basin, also it's not like the Myceneans "came" from God knows where, the Myceneans/Early greeks formed from the mixing of the IE migrants with the local people from early Helladic Greece.

You can apply my line of reasoning for every migration movement, from the IE people invading Britain and replacing their material culture with central European bell beaker culture, to the Greeks from Corinth settling Syracuse in Sicily and so on.

Of course it's a necessary but not sufficient condition, foreign materials do not necessarily imply a significant number of foreign migrants, let alone population displacement, but they are a requirement to postulate those thing..
 
some proof at all? leaving aside trade items, of course
 
GUYS

THINK ABOUT THIS

CASSITERIDES ISLES,

MINOANS AND MYCENEANS TRAVEL TILL BRITISH ISLANDS,
DO YOU THINK THEY DID NOT HAD ANY ALLY, OR AN EMPORIUM, AFTER S. ITALY?
TILL ALL THE WAY TO ATLANTIC and NORTH SEA?
 

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