North-Central Italian Bronze Age invasion of South Italy and the Sea Peoples

We do have some Bell Beaker in Italy, and one ancient sample, from Parma, from them.

It won't let me copy the url, but it's the first listing on this page.
https://www.google.com/search?sourc...264k1j0i10k1j0i22i30k1j33i160k1.0.tXx7fiR9-zY

3f72c607c986bdffdae364c10368d1ee.jpg


250px-Map_of_Italian_Bell_Beaker_sites.jpg
 
Each term of the inscriptions can be connected to 2, 3 ancient places. I think it would have been better if they had used the transliteration of the hieroglyphs in the introduction.

Either way, what they say is possible but it looks like 'speculative science'.
 
Each term of the inscriptions can be connected to 2, 3 ancient places. I think it would have been better if they had used the transliteration of the hieroglyphs in the introduction.

Either way, what they say is possible but it looks like 'speculative science'.

Well, before ancient dna all we've ever had is speculation based on archaeology. Now it's different. We already have a Philistine sample. We'll see what it's like when a paper is released.
 
Yeah Pygmalion, I was totally unaware of this sample as well
 
I'm looking forward to seeing those results, I'm pretty sure they'll be heavily EEF going by the 45 percent Neolithic Central European figure for Ashkenazi which is likely from them.
Iranian Jews are shifted towards Iranians, Ethiopian Jews towards Ethiopians, North African Jews to North Africans, but Ashkenazi remained "pure"(no admixture from Europeans) and the extra EEF is from Philistines ? No, I don't think so.
 
Ironside is right, clearly the Ashkenazi received DNA from when they were diaspora in central Europe.

WFkazr7.jpg


The EEF DNA the ancient Judeans would receive from the Sea Peoples would probably come mostly from Impressed ware, and Eastern Neolithic.
 
Last edited:
Ironside is right, clearly the Ashkenazi received DNA from when they were diaspora in central Europe.
kgRpwzv.png

The EEF DNA the ancient Judeans would receive from the Sea Peoples would probably come mostly from Cardial ware/Impressed ware, and Starcevo.

Ironside, it was just a guess and nothing agenda driven. I'm happy to hear any alternative theories from you that are sensible :).

And Jovialis, I highly doubt the sea people were still around when Jewish groups settled in Central Europe.
 
Ironside, it was just a guess and nothing agenda driven. I'm happy to hear any alternative theories from you that are sensible :).
And Jovialis, I highly doubt the sea people were still around when Jewish groups settled in Central Europe.

??????

I'm talking about the ancient Judeans, not the ashkenazi. The ashkenazi settled in central Europe thousands of years later. The philistines settled in the Levant...

I'm looking forward to seeing those results, I'm pretty sure they'll be heavily EEF going by the 45 percent Neolithic Central
European figure for Ashkenazi which is likely from them.

What would the sea people have to do with the Ashkenazi?

This is not the first time you've "misread" something I've posted, and I think your being deliberately obtuse to cause confusion.
 
??????

I'm talking about the ancient Judeans, not the ashkenazi. The ashkenazi settled in central Europe thousands of years later. The philistines settled in the Levant...



What would the sea people have to do with the Ashkenazi?

This is not the first time you've "misread" something I've posted, and I think your being deliberately obtuse to cause confusion.
I'm not trying to confuse anyone, sometimes I mix up closely related words and i apologize. It's the 45 percent Central European farmer figure that made me believe it was all from a heavily farmer source. To be fair, i could be wrong and we may never know where it came from without analyzing ancient DNA and scientific evidence.
 
I don't think North African Jews are very much like North Africans at all. They did keep themselves rather separate. Ethiopian and Indian Jews are different.

I don't know about people like the Iraqi Jews. We really have to wait and see what these Iron Age Judean samples look like when the paper is published. If they plot close to Samaritans, then yes, the Iraqi Jews are shifted.

What people always seem to forget about the Samaritans is that the Judeans considered them "mixed".

If we assume, for the moment, that they do plot with or close to the Samaritans. The Samaritans are actually shifted pretty far toward Southern Europe. They're really close to Cypriots, which you can't say for the other populations of the Near East who surround them.

2chkdfs.jpg
 
I'm not trying to confuse anyone, sometimes I mix up closely related words and i apologize. It's the 45 percent Central European farmer figure that made me believe it was all from a heavily farmer source. To be fair, i could be wrong and we may never know where it came from without analyzing ancient DNA and scientific evidence.

That "central European neolithic farmer" figure, may not be from there at all since south eastern Europe also had little to no WHG. It's just some term you picked up, from what ever calculator you were using that you mentioned in the Canaanite thread. It just a stand in to model farmers with little to no WHG. Look at the Starcevo_EN sample.

mKIlVM7.png
 
That "central European neolithic farmer" figure, may not be from there at all since south eastern Europe also had little to no WHG. It's just some term you picked up, from what ever calculator you were using that you mentioned in the Canaanite thread. It just a stand in to model farmers with little to no WHG. Look at the Starcevo_EN sample.

mKIlVM7.png
I wasn't using a calculator, I was referring to what was mentioned in the David Reich/Carmi abstract. And Angela mentioned that it could've been a heavily LBK like input so yes the additional EEF did have little to no extra whg.
 
I'll even quote her post regarding the study to show that the Central European Neoltihic term isn't something i found from a calculator. Read whats been bolded:

This should be a good one; hope it comes out soon...

"The genetic origin and heritage of Bronze Age Canaanites

Shai Carmi and David Reich



"Canaanites were the indigenous population of the Southern Levant during the 2nd millennium BCE. Their genetic origin and impact on modern populations have recently started to unravel following an analysis of a Lebanese sample. To study Canaanites from other Levant regions and their genomic heritage in the broader Middle East, we sequenced five petrous bones from Megiddo, Israel, dated to the Middle/Late Bronze Age (BA) transition (≈3.5 KYA). We enriched the DNA for approximately 1.2 million SNP targets, followed by sequencing at coverage >0.25x. Using a combination of statistical tools (PCA, f-statistics, ADMIXTURE, qpAdm), we found that the Megiddo samples can be modeled as a mixture of earlier samples from the Levant and Iran, the latter possibly representing migration via Armenia. The Megiddo samples showed high similarity to older Levant BA samples, as well as to a later Iron Age (IA, ≈3 KYA) sample that we sequenced from Abel Beth Maacah in Northern Israel. The genomes of modern native Levantine populations trace ≈60% of their ancestry to IA Canaanites, ≈10% to Eastern Africa, and the remaining to less well characterized sources, possibly related to Iran. The genomes of Ashkenazi Jews can be modeled as ≈55% BA Canaanites and ≈45% Neolithic Central Europeans, and those of Iraqi Jews as ≈70% BA Canaanites and ≈30% Neolithic Iranians. To validate the results, we developed a novel extension of ChromoPainter that can take advantage of the information in linked SNPs to paint ancient chromosomes and model their ancestry. Our results confirm previous findings regarding the mixed Levantine-Iranian ancestry of BA Canaanites, and suggest remarkable continuity in the region throughout the Bronze and Iron Ages. Using existing and new methods, we characterized the ancestry of modern Middle-Eastern populations as a combination of pre-existing groups from the Middle-East and beyond."

This is great stuff. They have sequenced bones from Megiddo in 1500 BC and one Iron Age sample from Northern Israel dated to 1000 BC. This is the time of Saul and David.

What differences exist from prior samples seem to have been from continued migration from areas around Armenia.

I definitely want to see the data for this:
"The genomes of Ashkenazi Jews can be modeled as ≈55% BA Canaanites and ≈45% Neolithic Central Europeans, and those of Iraqi Jews as ≈70% BA Canaanites and ≈30% Neolithic Iranians."

That would change what Shai Carmi has believed for years, i.e. that the Ashkenazi ethnogenesis involved absorption of Italian genes before the movement to the Rhineland. Or, perhaps that's one way they can be modeled, but not the only or the best way.

This new extension of ChromoPainter is potentially very important as well.
sorry for going off topic, but I wanted to point this out
 
I'll even quote her post regarding the study to show that the Central European Neoltihic term isn't something i found from a calculator. Read whats been bolded:
sorry for going off topic, but I wanted to point this out

Fair enough, but I'll quote you again, and I'll stay on topic

I'm looking forward to seeing those results, I'm pretty sure they'll be heavily EEF going by the 45 percent Neolithic Central European figure for Ashkenazi which is likely from them.

In regards to the Phillistines, it would most likely not be from LBK, and it was only modeled that way. Like I said, South eastern farmer groups have little to no WHG.
 
Fair enough, but I'll quote you again, and I'll stay on topic



In regards to the Phillistines, it would most likely not be from LBK, and it was only modeled that way. Like I said, South eastern farmer groups have little to no WHG.

Yes, that's what I was saying, that the Central European Neolithic score is likely from philistines.
 
Yes, that's what I was saying, that the Central European Neolithic score is likely from philistines.
Well, that's not what I'm saying, because I think much of the Philistines heavy Neolithic farmer contribution comes from South Eastern Europe. But like the ones in Central Europe, they have little to no WHG. Which is why they can be modeled the same.
 
Well, that's not what I'm saying, because I think the Philistines heavy Neolithic farmer contribution comes from South Eastern Europe. But like the ones in Central Europe, they have little to no WHG. Which is why they can be modeled the same.

Youre right, I was saying that the score itself can be credited to them, I wasn't arguing that they were literally LBK. It's entirely believable and more likely that they got it from southeast Europe as you stated
 

This thread has been viewed 68727 times.

Back
Top