North-Central Italian Bronze Age invasion of South Italy and the Sea Peoples

Youre right, I was saying that the score itself can be credited to them, I wasn't arguing that they were literally LBK. It's entirely believable and more likely that they got it from southeast Europe as you stated

Indeed, but also they would have Impressed ware (who had more WHG than the South Eastern Farmers) if the Philistines in particular originally came from Italy. If many of them did come from Southern Italy, they would have been mixed more with the two farmer groups. And if they were in Crete (Caphtor) for sometime prior to the going to the Levant, they could have even more South Eastern Farmer. Perhaps they even had some locals from Crete in their ranks; or brought them during the migration to the Levant. And if they were in fact from Crete originally, they would surely have a high percent of Southeastern Neolithic. At any rate, we need to see the paper.
 
Late Bronze age North East italy.................the modern cities of Oderzo, Udine, Trieste and Gorz where all held by the Histi-Illyrian people .
.
west of oderzo lived the Venetic.
south of Trieste lived the liburnian-Illyrians.
North East of Gorz lived the Illyrians of Noricum.
 
r.jung (2011) did an analysis of copper in bronze weapons from north_italy and south_italy dating to MBAIII-FBAII by chemical composition and found they were from the same source ore/mining which is now revealed to be sardinia; the interesting part is that it all post-dates the destruction of the south seen at roca-vecchia and aeolian-islands indicating a common network established by north/central after the destruction; this new network also had an impact on mycenae in which r.jung(2013) concludes and proposes Several researchers agreed with H. Catling that mercenaries from Italy were employed by the Mycenaean palace state(s) in the last decades of the 13thand at the beginning of the 12thcentury BC and thus during the years that were overshadowed by the crisis of the East-Mediterranean states. The existence of locally produced handmade pottery of Italian type in layers dating to LHIIIB Developed and Final at Tiryns, Midea, Mycenae and Nichoria on the Greek mainland is indeed a strong argument supporting the hypothesis that people coming from continental Italy were residing among the indigenous Mycenaean population already prior to the fall of the Mycenaean state system. The evidence of our analytical project makes it now much more probable that the local production of Italian-type impasto pottery and the introduction of bronze types of the metallurgical koiné starting in LHIIIB Middle are in fact related to each other. This connection,therefore, changes its common status of being a mere assumption to that of strong evidence. claiming a scenario of earlier raids of piracy and than in a ramsesII/III manner of incorporating such raiders into the own(mycenaean) army Clearly, it is a matter of military necessity to equip one’s army with new types of weapons if the neighbours possess more deadly weapons than oneself. Long slashing swords were unknown in the eastern Mediterranean prior to their introduction from Italy. This makes it highly likely that the Mycenaean armies, who seem to have been the first to adopt the new sword type, were precisely under the pressure of western warriors equipped with such weapons. Once they had integrated some contingents of those modern fighters, they were able to participate in the new combat technology of Italian and Central European origin.

making it all highly plaus that Šekeleš and Šerden were from italy/sardinia respectively in a context of long known pirates as well as revolting and than marauding mercenaries; cant post the link but the paper is called 'Mycenaean Greece and Bronze Age Italy: Cooperation, Trade or War?'
 
Italic "Eteocretan" Sea peoples?


TALANTA XL-XLI (2008-2009), 151-172

AN ‘ETEOCRETAN’ INSCRIPTION FROM PRAISOS AND THE HOMELAND OF THE SEA PEOPLES

Luuk de Ligt

The whereabouts of the homeland or homelands of the so-called Sea Peoples have been endlessly debated. This article re-examines this problem by looking at one of the ‘Eteocretan’ inscriptions from the town of Praisos. It is argued that this text is written in an Indo-European language belonging to the OscanUmbrian branch of the Italic language family. Based on this finding it is suggested that this language must have arrived in eastern Crete during the Late Bronze Age, when Mycenaean rulers recruited groups of mercenaries from Sicily, Sardinia and various parts of the Italian peninsula. When the Mycenaean state system collapsed around 1200 BC, some of these groups moved to the northern Aegean, to Cyprus and to the coastal districts of the Levant. It is also suggested that this reconstruction explains the presence of an Etruscan-speaking community in sixth-century-BC Lemnos. An interesting corollary of this theory is that the Sea Peoples were present in the Mycenaean world some considerable time before its collapse in the early twelfth century.

http://www.talanta.nl/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/TAL-40-412008-2009-pag-151-172-DeLigt.pdf

http://dienekes.blogspot.it/2015/02/italic-eteocretan-sea-peoples.html
 
Late Bronze age North East italy.................the modern cities of Oderzo, Udine, Trieste and Gorz where all held by the Histi-Illyrian people .
.
west of oderzo lived the Venetic.
south of Trieste lived the liburnian-Illyrians.
North East of Gorz lived the Illyrians of Noricum.

Correct me if I am wrong, but aint Venetic the same people as Veneti aka Slavic tribe?
 
Correct me if I am wrong, but aint Venetic the same people as Veneti aka Slavic tribe?
You did a miss print ..........it is Veleti which are slavs , first and only tribe known as wends, they migrated from the upper vistula area to Mecklenburg Germany, where later part of the wendish crusades conflict.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veleti
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendish_Crusade
there is the Venedi , who lived on the baltic sea, next to the nogat river, who where in majority absorbed into Gothic society, the remnants became known as the Warmians...an old Prussian tribe
 
Late Bronze age North East italy.................the modern cities of Oderzo, Udine, Trieste and Gorz where all held by the Histi-Illyrian people .
.
west of oderzo lived the Venetic.
south of Trieste lived the liburnian-Illyrians.
North East of Gorz lived the Illyrians of Noricum.

re reading strabo and Livy ( Roman historians )

Trieste was inhabited by Carni Illyrians , to their south stood the liburnian illyrians and to their west the Histri Illyrians.

The Histri dominated from west Istria through Udine and Oderzo along the coast as far as Ancona .............it is more likely that ancient Picenes where Histri illyrians instead of Liburnian illyrians.

Still checking who where the Euganei , ancient people from modern Veneto and Friuli. Italians have already removed the Liguri union, ....it would seem they are a sub branch of the illyrians who where in east Austria from ~1600BCE or where part of the Rhaetic group
 
You did a miss print ..........it is Veleti which are slavs , first and only tribe known as wends, they migrated from the upper vistula area to Mecklenburg Germany, where later part of the wendish crusades conflict.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veleti
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendish_Crusade
there is the Venedi , who lived on the baltic sea, next to the nogat river, who where in majority absorbed into Gothic society, the remnants became known as the Warmians...an old Prussian tribe

Ahh, I see. Yup. Venedi is the way its spelled. That is who I meant.
 
Venetic language was akin to Latin

Italic "Eteocretan" Sea peoples?


TALANTA XL-XLI (2008-2009), 151-172

AN ‘ETEOCRETAN’ INSCRIPTION FROM PRAISOS AND THE HOMELAND OF THE SEA PEOPLES

Luuk de Ligt

The whereabouts of the homeland or homelands of the so-called Sea Peoples have been endlessly debated. This article re-examines this problem by looking at one of the ‘Eteocretan’ inscriptions from the town of Praisos. It is argued that this text is written in an Indo-European language belonging to the OscanUmbrian branch of the Italic language family. Based on this finding it is suggested that this language must have arrived in eastern Crete during the Late Bronze Age, when Mycenaean rulers recruited groups of mercenaries from Sicily, Sardinia and various parts of the Italian peninsula. When the Mycenaean state system collapsed around 1200 BC, some of these groups moved to the northern Aegean, to Cyprus and to the coastal districts of the Levant. It is also suggested that this reconstruction explains the presence of an Etruscan-speaking community in sixth-century-BC Lemnos. An interesting corollary of this theory is that the Sea Peoples were present in the Mycenaean world some considerable time before its collapse in the early twelfth century.

http://www.talanta.nl/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/TAL-40-412008-2009-pag-151-172-DeLigt.pdf

http://dienekes.blogspot.it/2015/02/italic-eteocretan-sea-peoples.html

If this is true then it could mean that the Appennine culture was already Italic-speaker :unsure: because Protovillanova is post-1200 b.c.
 
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the Appennine culture was already Italic-speaker :unsure:
Obviously, The Bell Beaker sample from northern Italy in 2200BC was already the same as modern north Italians both in terms of Ydna and autosomal DNA, but then again the distribution of R1b-L51* suggests R1b was in Italy already before Bell Beaker.
 
that's a possiblity, thumb up (y)...however although i don't know exactly what is the origin of the Appennine culture i doubt that it was a derivate of the Bell Beaker culture because the Beaker presence in Central-Southern Italy was weak, except in Tuscany and part of Latium...but who know?
 
Obviously, The Bell Beaker sample from northern Italy in 2200BC was already the same as modern north Italians both in terms of Ydna and autosomal DNA, but then again the distribution of R1b-L51* suggests R1b was in Italy already before Bell Beaker.

Please see Olalde et al PCA for placement of Parma Bell Beaker sample on a PCA with a background of modern populations. This is going to be a bit off, but still...

For a larger view:
https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/olalde-pca.png

olalde-pca.png
 
Please see Olalde et al PCA for placement of Parma Bell Beaker sample on a PCA with a background of modern populations. This is going to be a bit off, but still...

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, the one from Italy is just slightly more EEF shifted than modern north Italians, but then there are 3 samples from Bell Beaker in Central Europe that are exact fits for modern northern Italy. The thing is, those Bell Beakers are invading former Corded Ware territory and we know from mtDNA they are taking Corded Ware females, if we consider most of those central Europeans already a mix of the original Bell Beaker males and local Corded Ware females we may even conclude those "Italian-shifted" people in the Olalde PCA are the original vectors of R1b into central Europe, which is also consistent with the distribution of R1b-L51*(All Bell Beaker is already downstream of L23) in the northern half of Italy and southern France.
 
Venetic language was akin to Latin
If this is true then it could mean that the Appennine culture was already Italic-speaker :unsure: because Protovillanova is post-1200 b.c.
http://www.academia.edu/7894586/Introduction_to_Venetic_Leiden_Summer_School_in_IE_Linguistics_2013_
- Oldest known Venetic articfact found is 1150BC
- Venetic as per NAt gEO 2005-2010 study states they came from Palaic area of North Anatolia.
- The Euganei are the indigenous people of Veneto and Friuli and they spoke pre-venetic.
Venetic became akin to Latin not earlier than the hannibal wars and latin fully replaced venetic by 100BC
 
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, the one from Italy is just slightly more EEF shifted than modern north Italians, but then there are 3 samples from Bell Beaker in Central Europe that are exact fits for modern northern Italy. The thing is, those Bell Beakers are invading former Corded Ware territory and we know from mtDNA they are taking Corded Ware females, if we consider most of those central Europeans already a mix of the original Bell Beaker males and local Corded Ware females we may even conclude those "Italian-shifted" people in the Olalde PCA are the original vectors of R1b into central Europe, which is also consistent with the distribution of R1b-L51*(All Bell Beaker is already downstream of L23) in the northern half of Italy and southern France.

The point is that if the Italian Bell Beaker sample (Parma) was the same autosomally as modern Northern Italians, which is what you stated above, it would plot in northern Italy or at least somewhere near, even if you're projecting ancient samples on modern ones. It doesn't.

See the same PCA with the names of the modern nationalities attached. There's no proof for any of your other speculations. Less heat and more light, please, i.e. more precision in your statements.

lazaridis2014-2.png
 
by the archaeological context the parma-beaker is set to the east-beaker zone (moravia/low-austria) and two central_europe beakers are plotting with modern north_italians as do the balkan_ba and hungary_ba samples this could be that in qpAdm mathieson et al the mothers (X-chr) of the balkan_ba were exclusively farmers and balkan_chl already had ~6% CHG (non-IE dependent); yet olalde et al does point out that the farmer source in beakers is TRB/GAC;

but what i have figured out is that the late dating of remedello T78 in allentoft et al is a blunder, archaeologically T78 is contemporary to the other two remedellians 56/65 and date to the first half of the 3rd mil meaning remedello copperI-II phase and not remedello beakerIII phase (2nd half 3rd mil); p.127 in german
https://www.researchgate.net/public...ropa_und_Vorderasien_im_4-3_Jahrtausend_v_Chr

this means that remedello during phase III could be akin to the contemporary parma/central_eu beakers and not to the previous remedello trio; the remedello beaker burial of santa-cristina yielded copper of the C3 and FG type [SAMII] which indicates local ligurian/mediterranean type (m.benz p214) thus most prob the same as the previous 'farmer' copper network used; copper blade of zug-riedmatt gross et al 2017 (in german) highlighting the network of ligurian/etrurian copper ore;
http://www.academia.edu/34838562/Di...der_zweiten_Hälfte_des_4._Jahrtausends_v._Chr
 

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