North-Central Italian Bronze Age invasion of South Italy and the Sea Peoples

There's no proof for any of your other speculations.

Could you be more specific as to what you don't agree with?

a. Bell Beaker is invading former Corded Ware territory in Central Europe.
b. Bell Beaker males are taking local Corded Ware females as they do so.
c. If you subtract the Corded Ware admixture from Central European Bell Beaker you get the southern French/north Italian Bell Beaker individuals

Also can you post the map of the distribution of R1b-L51* for me I'm not allowed to post links/images yet. The map shows why southern French/north Italian Bell Beaker is highly relevant.
 
Could you be more specific as to what you don't agree with?

a. Bell Beaker is invading former Corded Ware territory in Central Europe.
b. Bell Beaker males are taking local Corded Ware females as they do so.
c. If you subtract the Corded Ware admixture from Central European Bell Beaker you get the southern French/north Italian Bell Beaker individuals

Also can you post the map of the distribution of R1b-L51* for me I'm not allowed to post links/images yet. The map shows why southern French/north Italian Bell Beaker is highly relevant.

Why do you believe in your option b..?

https://indo-european.eu/tag/neolithic/

clearly early neolithic arrived in central Europe form the same original place as the BB ..........they could not be only men
 
Early Neolithic people arrived in Europe from the southern Balkans. The steppe people arrived in Central Europe from the steppe, not necessarily via the Balkans.

The Italian Beaker people came from Central Europe. According to the scientific papers there doesn't seem to have been any influx of Spanish Beaker people into Central Europe. The EEF like admixture in the Beakers, which is percentage wise larger than in Corded Ware, was absorbed somewhere along their route into Europe.

Imo you're better off reading the papers in the newbie thread than the speculations of amateurs.
 
Early Neolithic people arrived in Europe from the southern Balkans. The steppe people arrived in Central Europe from the steppe, not necessarily via the Balkans.

The Italian Beaker people came from Central Europe. According to the scientific papers there doesn't seem to have been any influx of Spanish Beaker people into Central Europe. The EEF like admixture in the Beakers, which is percentage wise larger than in Corded Ware, was absorbed somewhere along their route into Europe.

Imo you're better off reading the papers in the newbie thread than the speculations of amateurs.

It's helpful to look at the "Beakers" and where they place on the Olalde PCA up thread. There's a clear delineation between Central Beakers and Spanish Beakers genetically. Even the Central Beakers are far from homogeneous. As Maciamo has been saying forever, they were not a single ethnic group.
 
I've found out about a really interesting study that might help us understand the mystery behind the sea peoples a little better.

It was already well known since four years ago that the European pigs became dominant over Near Eastern ones in the Levant after the bronze age collapse, possibly because of the sea peoples' movements: https://www.nature.com/articles/srep03035

But now a new study (2017) revealed that pigs were also traded from Anatolia to Sicily and Sardinia during the middle bronze age (1600-1300 bc)

"Southern Italy has a long history of human occupation and passage of different cultures since the Early Holocene. Repeated, ancient introductions of pigs in several geographic areas in Europe make it difficult to understand pig translocation and domestication in Italy. The archeozoological record may provide fundamental information on this, hence shedding light on peopling and on trading among different ancient cultures in the Mediterranean. Yet, because of the scanty nature of the fossil record, ancient remains from human-associated animals are somewhat rare. Fortunately, ancient DNA analysis as applied to domestic species proved to be a powerful tool in revealing human migrations. Herein, we analyzed 80-bp fragment of mitochondrial DNA control region from 27 Sus scrofa ancient samples retrieved from Southern Italian and Sardinian archeological sites, spanning in age from the Mesolithic to the Roman period. Our results surprisingly indicate the presence ofthe Near Eastern haplotype Y1 on both Italy’s major islands (Sardinia and Sicily) during the Bronze Age, suggesting the seaborne transportation of domestic pigs by humans at least during 1600–1300 BC. The presence of the Italian E2 clade in domestic contexts shows that the indigenous wild boar was effectively domesticated or incorporated into domestic stocks in Southern Italy during the Bronze Age, although the E2 haplotype has never been found in modern domestic breeds. Pigs belonging to the endemic E2 clade were thus traded between the Peninsula and Sardinia by the end of the second millennium BC and this genetic signature is still detected in Sardinian feral pigs."
Like a pig out of water: seaborne spread of domestic pigs in Southern Italy and Sardinia


"It is plausible (from the data of archeogenetics, ed) that the pigs of the Near East were imported into Sicily and Sardinia at least around 1600-1300 BC. At the time Sardinia was characterized by the Nuragic civilization that showed a strong connection with the "Sea Peoples" during the XIIIth century. B.C. and it was separated from the peninsular cultures. Nuraghic ceramics also come from Sicily (Castelluccio culture) and from places along the Eastern Mediterranean routes (eg Crete). We can therefore hypothesize that the presence of near-eastern haplotypes in the two major Italian islands is connected to the trafficking of the "Peoples of the Sea" in the Mediterranean basin, with the Nuragic and Castelluccio cultures. The same vectors may have intentionally dispersed the European haplotypes in the Near East. In fact, a massive turnover in the population of domestic pigs took place in the Near East around 900 BC, when European pigs became predominant in the Southern Levant, in Anatolia and in Romania"
 
dietary diffs between bronze age north_italy (millet based) and south_italy (non-millet based)
http://www.academia.edu/13464842/St...f_millet_and_other_plants_in_Bronze_Age_Italy
central italy in comparison
http://www.academia.edu/11367308/Di...ing_Bronze_Age_in_central_Italy_first_results

seeing as there is already isotopic data from sites such as olmo and daguzzo it sure would be great for some genetic data as well specially the sword bearing elites of both; toppo daguzzo (grip-plate) pertosa type swords, olmo di nogara sauerbrunn and naueII (grip-tongue) swords with daguzzo one of the few inland(non-coastal) sites with aegaean LHIII pottery another major diff was the burial rite with toppo daguzzo collective rock chamber and olmo di nogara single graves
N/C isotope incl french (herrscher et al)
wqqoH72.png

it also seems as if the situation in southern italy was tense throughout the MBA17th-14th
http://www.academia.edu/7530012/Bronze_Age_fortified_settlements_in_southern_Italy_and_Sicily
the severe fire events of a war experienced by both Coppa Nevigata, in the late 16th century BC, and Roca, between the end of the 15th and the beginning of the 14th century BC

as i understand it the destruction of the aeolian islands was succeeded by apennine culture on the islands and if apenniners possessed such an ability to sail and raid/sack islands during the MBA than not much more is needed for the LBA phenomena of the sea-people; while the Šerden and Luka(lycia) get mentioned throughout the 14th/13th-12th the Šekeleš are only mentioned by merenptah and ramsesIII the exact time of when the palatial-system collapses throughout the aegean;
 
dietary diffs between bronze age north_italy (millet based) and south_italy (non-millet based)
http://www.academia.edu/13464842/St...f_millet_and_other_plants_in_Bronze_Age_Italy
central italy in comparison
http://www.academia.edu/11367308/Di...ing_Bronze_Age_in_central_Italy_first_results
seeing as there is already isotopic data from sites such as olmo and daguzzo it sure would be great for some genetic data as well specially the sword bearing elites of both; toppo daguzzo (grip-plate) pertosa type swords, olmo di nogara sauerbrunn and naueII (grip-tongue) swords with daguzzo one of the few inland(non-coastal) sites with aegaean LHIII pottery another major diff was the burial rite with toppo daguzzo collective rock chamber and olmo di nogara single graves
N/C isotope incl french (herrscher et al)
View attachment 9550
it also seems as if the situation in southern italy was tense throughout the MBA17th-14th
http://www.academia.edu/7530012/Bronze_Age_fortified_settlements_in_southern_Italy_and_Sicily
the severe fire events of a war experienced by both Coppa Nevigata, in the late 16th century BC, and Roca, between the end of the 15th and the beginning of the 14th century BC

as i understand it the destruction of the aeolian islands was succeeded by apennine culture on the islands and if apenniners possessed such an ability to sail and raid/sack islands during the MBA than not much more is needed for the LBA phenomena of the sea-people; while the Šerden and Luka(lycia) get mentioned throughout the 14th/13th-12th the Šekeleš are only mentioned by merenptah and ramsesIII the exact time of when the palatial-system collapses throughout the aegean;
I presume the millet is fox-tail millet or as some say italian millet ..........this arrived from basic modern Poland and Czech lands and they got it from western China .........I refer to ancient times.
If it is not fox-tail which type is it?
.
It is still made in Italy for use as bird seed .............bad for human consumption
 
I presume the millet is fox-tail millet or as some say italian millet ..........this arrived from basic modern Poland and Czech lands and they got it from western China .........I refer to ancient times.
If it is not fox-tail which type is it?
.
It is still made in Italy for use as bird seed .............bad for human consumption

the paper mentions two types of millet one of them the fox-tail; the interesting parts are for the chronology as the EBA (polada linked) necropolis of arano does not show a millet based diet yet the EBA (friulan site) sedegliano shows a partial millet based diet maybe highlighting the introduction/route of the new plant cultivation in italy itself (pos? new migration) as than MBA olmo di nogara couldnt get enough of it;
https://www.academia.edu/24385917/D...ce_from_Arano_di_Cellore_Illasi_Verona_Italy_
also interesting is that olmo necropolis is heavily linked to the terremare culture yet saracino et al does not mention any settlements in that area only necropolii meaning those buried must stem from settlements of somewhere else most prob southern po valley terremare thus hinting at large millet cultivation/(pastoralism) in the area of settlement itself but not in contemporary central or southern italy or even central france; app the consumption was also direct;
 
chapter on the sea-people phenomena and the terramare collapse
Cambridge 2016 'Human Mobility and Technological Transfer in the Prehistoric Mediterranean'
https://books.google.de/books?id=7J...zYAhUEblAKHfHnACUQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q&f=true
(not fully complete but if pages do not show up scroll around down/back-up, makes them appear)

dynamics of the terramare collapse MBAIII-RBA(>urnfield emergence)
http://www.academia.edu/5808394/The...al_System_during_the_late_Bronze_Age_in_Italy

it is interesting that also r.jung(2013) states that after the palatial-collapse contacts between former mycenae and italy tightened, which might actually underline something specific to odysseus sailing westward (after troja) rather than eastward;
 
Autosomal Map of Italy by 23andme of its full Italians descent users.

ad8174d9ef290fc9e7c7aac8ced79f70.jpg
 
Autosomal Map of Italy by 23andme of its full Italians descent users.

ad8174d9ef290fc9e7c7aac8ced79f70.jpg

Is this based on the v5 or prior iterations? The percentages would change.

Based on what I've seen of v3 results this looks right.

The demarcation for a lot of these clusters isn't south of Rome, it's south of Toscana. Northwestern does reach to Napoli.

The British and Irish are perhaps connected to Gallic migrations of the first millennium which entered Italy from the northwest?

There's virtually no "Eastern European" in Italy, despite what some of those calculators say.

I thought the "centrum" for "Italian" in 23andme was the south in the past and perhaps Toscana in 'v5, but up to v4' it seems heaviest along the Adriatic, in parts of Marche, Abruzzo, and Molise, where, incidentally, there are high percentages of J2. So, southern Italy, but not Calabria or Sicilia.

The "Balkan" cluster, as we've often discussed, runs east to west. Another interesting thing is that it also peaks in a lot of the areas where J2 peaks, which is not Calabria and Sicily, but places in Central Italy and the more northern parts of Southern Italy, along the Adriatic. That's another factor in favor of an entrance of J2 into Italy from the Balkans.

Italians get no Sardinian. As I've been saying ad nauseam, they're too drifted.
 
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https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...position/page3?p=504922&viewfull=1#post504922

Pratt shared that graphic back in March on this thread, so I would assume this is from the V4 version.

For southerners, I've only seen Puglesi results, for V5. I'm curious to see what other Southerners would get. Probably the biggest difference would be the higher percent of Balkan DNA.

I would assume the people on the west coast get less of it, if its consistent with the V4 map.
 
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...position/page3?p=504922&viewfull=1#post504922
Pratt shared that graphic back in March on this thread, so I would assume this is from the V4 version.
For southerners, I've only seen Puglesi results, for V5. I'm curious to see what other Southerners would get. Probably the biggest difference would be the higher percent of Balkan DNA.
I would assume the people on the west coast get less of it, if its consistent with the V4 map.

It seems as though on the east coast, Balkan went from about 5%-10% to about 30%. I wonder how it changed for Friuli-Venezia Giulia, where it was highest in V4.
 
Is this based on the v5 or prior iterations? The percentages would change.

Based on what I've seen of v3 results this looks right.

The demarcation for a lot of these clusters isn't south of Rome, it's south of Toscana. Northwestern does reach to Napoli.

The British and Irish are perhaps connected to Gallic migrations of the first millennium which entered Italy from the northwest?

There's virtually no "Eastern European" in Italy, despite what some of those calculators say.

I thought the "centrum" for "Italian" in 23andme was the south in the past and perhaps Toscana in 23andme but it seems heaviest along the Adriatic, in parts of Marche, Abruzzo, and Molise, where, incidentally, there are high percentages of J2. So, southern Italy, but not Calabria or Sicilia.

The "Balkan" cluster, as we've often discussed, runs east to west. Another interesting thing is that it also peaks in a lot of the areas where J2 peaks, which is not Calabria and Sicily, but places in Central Italy and the more northern parts of Southern Italy, along the Adriatic. That's another factor in favor of an entrance of J2 into Italy from the Balkans.

Italians get no Sardinian. As I've been saying ad nauseam, they're too drifted.
I think jovialis said his dad got 1.1 percent Sardinian. Jovialis himself scores big in Balkan, 30 ish I believe, higher than what's expected in Puglia from that map.

Yeah Sardinians plot in a galaxy far far away from other Europeans.
 
"sardinians are too drifted" what does that even mean?
sardinians are isolated maybe too isolated hence retaining a strong neolithic affinity/continuity thus they are a good indicator of shared drift with original populations; the fact that no one scores sardinian on 23andme and sards themselves exceed at <30% says more about the calculator and defined cluster than about the tested populations, similar to myHeritage's 'italian' and sicilian scores in saying more about the defined cluster used than sicilians;
zB1ySts.png lfixx3H.png
 
Why on earth would someone use the Sardinians to track Italian ancestry when the following is the case?

"Using adoubleton sharing statistic, we also find that sharing between Sardinia and other mainlandpopulations is small (normalized sharing ratio typically between 0.03 to 0.25), lower even thanthat between continental populations (e.g. approximately 0.3 to 0.7 between African and EastAsian samples) (Figure S4)."

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2016/12/07/092148.full.pdf

As for what drift means, look it up.
 
exactly because of that, high isolation and high affinity to neolithic europeans (Fig6); and shared drift with sardinians indicates higher affinity with the original/neolithic populations as in correlation figure4/figure6 (in the case of north_italy itB/Sardinians>ötzi/remedello); and since there is no "italian" ancestry as such (per admixture or ibd analysis) not much point in tracking things of that nature to begin with;
 

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