North-Central Italian Bronze Age invasion of South Italy and the Sea Peoples

[davef]

exactly because of that high isolation and high affinity to neolithic europeans (Fig6); and shared drift with sardinians indicates higher affinity with the original/neolithic populations as in correlation figure4/figure6 (in the case of north_italy itB/Sardinians>ötzi/remedello); and since there is no "italian" ancestry as such (per admixture or ibd analysis) not much point in tracking things of that nature to begin with;

No offense, but what's the central point you're trying to make, exactly?

 

[alexfritz]

No offense, but what's the central point you're trying to make, exactly?

none taken and no offense in return but following the discussion might help;

 

[Angela]

exactly because of that, high isolation and high affinity to neolithic europeans (Fig6); and shared drift with sardinians indicates higher affinity with the original/neolithic populations as in correlation figure4/figure6 (in the case of north_italy itB/Sardinians>ötzi/remedello); and since there is no "italian" ancestry as such (per admixture or ibd analysis) not much point in tracking things of that nature to begin with;

If there is no such thing as "Italian" ancestry, then there is no German, or English, or French or Spanish ancestry either.

@Davef,
He has no point. It's all garbled nonsense. I knew the pretense would pall sooner or later. It's like all the socks who keep showing up who have a "Jewish" y dna, and the member who pretended to be two members, both crypto Jews of Italian background, each time jumps in to answer.

They think no one is paying attention or remembers all those results from the old 23andme days. They're about as good at subterfuge as those people in the "Stupid Criminal" videos.

Meanwhile other winners continue the old Sikelliot tradition of taking all my ideas and passing them off as their own.

Oy vey, I guess 2018 will be no better than 2017.

 

[alexfritz]

If there is no such thing as "Italian" ancestry, then there is no German, or English, or French or Spanish ancestry either.

something like that;

He has no point. It's all garbled nonsense. I knew the pretense would pall sooner or later. It's like all the socks who keep showing up who have a "Jewish" y dna, and the member who pretended to be two members, both crypto Jews of Italian background, each time jumps in to answer.

They think no one is paying attention or remembers all those results from the old 23andme days. They're about as good at subterfuge as those people in the "Stupid Criminal" videos.

Meanwhile other winners continue the old Sikelliot tradition of taking all my ideas and passing them off as their own.

Oy vey, I guess 2018 will be no better than 2017.

well i am pretty sure M458(L1029) in south germany is a sorb Y marker yet with lusatian sorbs being slightly higher in proportion L260/L1029 but possessing the highest concentration of M458 overall and as for my point, is it really that difficult to comprehend or is there an intent not to comprehend? it is actually pretty neutral stuff readily available in several academic papers;

to be honest in all of your posts i picked up a bit of a weird vibe guess its paranoia getting the better of you and i hope you didnt accuse me of anything specific there because that would be just false; but that is something i really do not have to understand and before it gets any more bizarre have fun working that out with yourself and ill keep enjoying the forum (hope we can avoid each other in the future);

 

[Jovialis]

Archaeologists in northern Israel discovered an ancient Italian vase featuring an image originally found on the Parthenon in Athens. The location where it was unearthed was once the biblical kingdom of Geshur, according to Haaretz. The site might also correspond to a second biblical location—a mysterious town referenced in the New Testament.
The archaeologists discovered the ceramic artifact at e-Tell, which sits about a mile north of the Sea of Galilee. E-Tell is among the leading contenders to be the original site of the biblical town Bethsaida, purportedly the hometown of apostles Philip, Andrew and Peter, according to Haaretz.

Jesus was believed to have not only visited Bethsaida, but to have performed miracles there, according to the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Researchers have claimed to have pinpointed Bethsaida's location for certain in the past, but have been dogged by claims of sensationalism, according to National Geographic. No one has yet proven the town's location beyond reasonable doubt.

The vase itself is “richly decorated” and approximately 2,300 years old, according to Haaretz. It depicts the birth of Athena, the Greek goddess of war and wisdom for whom the city of Athens was named. The Parthenon was built in her honor.

In the scene, Greek deities watch Athena emerging, fully grown and fully armed, from the head of her father Zeus. According to Greek mythology, Zeus had swallowed her pregnant mother after an oracle warned him that the offspring might bring him harm. This resulted in Zeus getting a very bad headache; his son Hephaestus helpfully split his father's head open to relieve the pressure, whereupon Athena emerged. (In a similar story line, Zeus' son Dionysus, god of wine and generally having a good time, was born from Zeus' thigh).

The vase was discovered several years ago, but only recently were archaeologists able to finally distinguish the Parthenon scene with imaging software, according to Haaretz. It's unclear how such an artifact made its way to Geshur, and potentially to Bethsaida.

It’s exceedingly rare to locate a surviving copy of artwork from the Parthenon. Finding southern Italian-style pottery (not widely manufactured and rarely decorated to begin with) on the shores of Israel depicting a scene from the Greek Parthenon is unprecedented, according to Haaretz. Before this discovery, the only other known surviving copy of a scene from the Parthenon was found in Greece, not far from Athens.

“Few buildings in the history of architecture have been as ferociously ideological in design and decoration as the Parthenon," Daniel Mendelsohn, a professor of humanities at Bard College, told Haaretz. "Everything about it...bespeaks a desire on the part of the builders to underscore Athenian political, military and ideological supremacy."

http://www.newsweek.com/israel-ancient-vase-greek-gods-biblical-kingdom-jesus-miracles-783838

https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology...non-scene-found-in-biblical-village-1.5731050

More southern Italian-style pottery found in Israel, in an article published today. These in particular depict the birth of Athena.

 

[Pygmalion]

Some more evidence of the nautical abilities possessed by the native peoples of Sardinia and South Italy during the bronze age:

""The change of cultural facies from Ausonius I to Ausonius II (second half of the 12th century BC, ed) does not interrupt commercial relations with the Aegean world, which had lasted for six centuries: in fact in the Aeonius II strata we found a small number of Mycenaean style IIIC ceramics.Finally, a very remarkable quantity of Sardinian nuragic pottery found in the huts of the entire village, witnessed intense exchanges and a great development of maritime traffic with Sardinia during the 12th and 11th centuries BC The history of Lipari teaches us that reaching it from Sicily, from Sardinia or from the coasts of the Italian peninsula the countries of the Eastern Mediterranean during the bronze age wasn't difficult. In fact we saw clear signs of contact between the Aeolian Islands and the western coasts of Sardinia in the Age of Culture of Capo Graziano and perhaps there had already been intense contacts since the Middle Neolithic (culture of Bonu Ighinu). "From: Cavalier, M adeleine, and Anna Depalmas. "Sardinian materials in the village of Lipari: ceramic fragments and correlations." RSP. Vol. 58. 2008.

https://www.academia.edu/1336586/Ma...ipari._I_frammenti_ceramici_e_le_correlazioni

 

[davef]

More southern Italian-style pottery found in Israel, in an article published today. These in particular depict the birth of Athena.

I'm so glad you posted this!

 

[davef]

The fact that more of these are showing up in Israel makes it that much more likely that most or nearly all of the European admixture seen in Ashkenazi/Sephardic/North African Jews was acquired in the Middle East.

 

[Angela]

^^Trade contacts don't necessarily indicate significant gene flow. You need settlements. The Sea Peoples might have settled in some areas in large enough numbers. We'll have to see.

 

[davef]

^^Trade contacts don't necessarily indicate significant gene flow. You need settlements. The Sea Peoples might have settled in some areas in large enough numbers. We'll have to see.

True, it certainly is a clue though. Nothing beats physical evidence, that's a given

 

[Cato]

More southern Italian-style pottery found in Israel, in an article published today. These in particular depict the birth of Athena.

Thats from the Greek or Roman era not Bronze Age, 2,300 years old circa

 

[Jovialis]

Thats from the Greek or Roman era not Bronze Age, 2,300 years old circa

Yea, I considered that, but I thought it was interesting how for so long this type of pottery was still being produced. I believe it may have been around the time of Alexander the Great or the Seleucid Empire for the age approximation. Considering it was specifically southern-Italian style pottery was especially interesting. Perhaps they passed on the traditions of making it in that style from the initial sea people migrations to the region. Unless it was in fact just from trading goods. This is all purely speculation though.

 

[Pygmalion]

Yea, I considered that, but I thought it was interesting how for so long this type of pottery was still being produced. I believe it may have been around the time of Alexander the Great or the Seleucid Empire for the age approximation. Considering it was specifically southern-Italian style pottery was especially interesting. Perhaps they passed on the traditions of making it in that style from the initial sea people migrations to the region. Unless it was in fact just from trading goods. This is all purely speculation though.

That vessel is completely different from the bronze age burnished ware

 

[Jovialis]

That vessel is completely different from the bronze age burnished ware

In that case, than I guess it would be unrelated to the Sea people's influence on the Levant.

 

[Pygmalion]

Here's a really interesting discovery linking Egypt to the Central Mediterranean.
The copper ingots from the main tower of Nuraghe Arrubiu were made of copper from the Sinai Peninsula and the Negev desert:

http://www.videolina.it/articolo/tg...i_al_nuraghe_arrubiu_di_orroli-78-678325.html


While one year and a laf ago it was discovered that much of the copper from the metal hoard of the Nuragic temple of Funtana Coberta, including some of the oxhide ingots came from the red sea area as well:

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ure_the_Funtana_Coberta-Ballao_hoard_Sardinia

The hoard is dated to the 13-12th century bc

 

[alexfritz]

Here's a really interesting discovery linking Egypt to the Central Mediterranean.
The copper ingots from the main tower of Nuraghe Arrubiu were made of copper from the Sinai Peninsula and the Negev desert:

http://www.videolina.it/articolo/tg...i_al_nuraghe_arrubiu_di_orroli-78-678325.html


While one year and a laf ago it was discovered that much of the copper from the metal hoard of the Nuragic temple of Funtana Coberta, including some of the oxhide ingots came from the red sea area as well:

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ure_the_Funtana_Coberta-Ballao_hoard_Sardinia

The hoard is dated to the 13-12th century bc

maybe the ingots/objects derived from foreign ores are the result of loot/naval raids as 'the unruly Sherden whom no one had ever known how to combat, they came boldly sailing in their warships from the midst of the sea, none being able to withstand them' KRI II/290; the uluburun shipwreck highlights such an ingot(oxhide) transport and the 'unruly sherden' were obv no strangers in the east med; or given the date specific 13th/12th the deposit (specially the votive swords) could be linked to the mercenary role of the sherden in egyptian military; all given of course that the SRDN/Šerden are indeed the nuragic sards, and probability is very high;
http://www.enim-egyptologie.fr/revue/2017/2/Abbas_ENiM10_p7-23.swf.pdf

 

[Cato]

from what I have read the handmade burnished ware present in the eastern Mediterranean in the Bronze Age is both of Italian (Sub-Apenninic, nuragic, sicilian etc.) and Balkan origin (this in Anatolia ex. Knobbed ware) .. among it are also included ceramic styles typical of other western regions (like Spain, Corsica, S.France)?

 

[Pygmalion]

from what I have read the handmade burnished ware present in the eastern Mediterranean in the Bronze Age is both of Italian (Sub-Apenninic, nuragic, sicilian etc.) and Balkan origin (this in Anatolia ex. Knobbed ware) .. among it are also included ceramic styles typical of other western regions (like Spain, Corsica, S.France)?

From what I've gathered Balkan pottery was only found at Troy and nowhere else in the Eastern Mediterranean region, and pottery from either Spain, France or Corsica has never been identified in the Eastern mediterranean.

Take a look at the picture that shows up at 26:00, it includes all the finds of burnished ware in the Eastern Mediterranean that have been discovered up until now

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skRuzlCA8Yo

 

[Cato]

Ok thanks, it was just a curiosity

So if Sea Peoples came originally from the West (as i believe) then they were Italics, Nuragics, Sicilians only, not from other regions

Regarding Corsicans, their ceramics was not very peculiar so it could be misinterpreted either as Nuragic or Apenninic (both styles were used in BA Corsica if i'm not wrong)

PS yes in Troy the handmade ware found is the so called "Knobbed ware", of Phrygian or Mysian origin

 

[Pygmalion]

Ok thanks, it was just a curiosity

So if Sea Peoples came originally from the West (as i believe) then they were Italic, Nuragic, Sicilian only not from other regions

Regarding Corsicans, their ceramics was not very peculiar so it could be misinterpreted either as Nuragic or Apenninic (???)

I remember that during this period Corsican pottery was similar to the Apenninic one rather than to the Nuragic one, and the Nuragic pottery that has been found is easily identifiable as such, both because pottery from South-Central Sardinia was quite peculiar and different from that of the rest of the island, and obviously even more so from the gray-slate pottery which was produced in Soutern Italy, and because chemical analysis has shown that most of the Nuragic pottery found outside of the island was brought directly from Southern Sardinia, although some of it was made locally like part of the Nuragic vessels found at Cyprus.