North-Central Italian Bronze Age invasion of South Italy and the Sea Peoples

[Cato]

Interesting video, according to the Archaeologist South Italy was invaded by North-Central Italian warriors during the LBA and the refugees from the South, along with the northern invaders, become the Sea People

 

[Angela]

Interesting video, according to the Archaeologist South Italy was invaded by North-Central Italian warriors during the LBA and the refugees from the South, along with the northern invaders, become the Sea People

Fascinating. Thanks. I find the lecture very persuasive.

So, perhaps, at the end of the Bronze Age, some genes were moving back toward the Near East. It wasn't a one way street. They might have been moving into Mycenaean Greece as well. The gene mixing between Southern Italy/Sicily and Greece has been going on for a very long time indeed.

Interesting that these Southern Italians/Sicilians of the time might have been the Palace Guard in Mycenae, and who knows, might have been part of some internal revolutions that brought down the Palace Culture. What goes around comes around, as the same thing happened in Italy with German members of the Palace Guard and other Roman forces. Moral of the story: no matter how tempting, don't rely on foreign troops. Well, the Eastern Romans did but then killed them all, which is a rather brutal way to get out of that quandary.

It also strikes me how many Bronze Age sites and remains there are in Italy, and no one is testing them.

We really need to get the genomes for these people. Could they be the heavily EEF people who mixed with the Levant Bronze Age people to create the ancient Judeans a la the new Sharmi, Reich paper soon to be published?

 

[Pax Augusta]

Very interesting, this supports that there were not only movements from east to west, but also from west to east!

 

[Angela]

Very interesting, this supports that there were not only movements from east to west, but also from west to east!

Indeed. I've added to my post number 2.

Everyone should listen to this broadcast. It's very illuminating.

 

[Pax Augusta]

Indeed. I've added to my post number 2.

Everyone should listen to this broadcast. It's very illuminating.

Are the North-Central Italian Bronze Age invaders of South Italy the proto-Villanovans?

 

[Angela]

Are the North-Central Italian Bronze Age invaders of South Italy the proto-Villanovans?

That's what I want to know, but I didn't hear the answer in the lecture, and as I said, all those Bronze Age sites go largely unexplored and the remains unanalyzed.

If someone who listens to it hears some exposition at least on the culture, please post.

 

[Pax Augusta]

That's what I want to know, but I didn't hear the answer in the lecture, and as I said, all those Bronze Age sites go largely unexplored and the remains unanalyzed.

If someone who listens to it hears some exposition at least on the culture, please post.

It reminds me a lot of this study



An ‘Eteocretan’ inscription from Praisos and the homeland of the Sea Peoples

Luuk de Ligt Talanta XL-XLI (2008-2009) [2010]: 151-172.



The whereabouts of the homeland or homelands of the so-called Sea Peoples have been endlessly debated. This article re-examines this problem by looking at one of the ‘Eteocretan’ inscriptions from the town of Praisos. It is argued that this text is written in an Indo-European language belonging to the OscanUmbrian branch of the Italic language family. Based on this finding it is suggested that this language must have arrived in eastern Crete during the Late Bronze Age, when Mycenaean rulers recruited groups of mercenaries from Sicily, Sardinia and various parts of the Italian peninsula. When the Mycenaean state system collapsed around 1200 BC, some of these groups moved to the northern Aegean, to Cyprus and to the coastal districts of the Levant. It is also suggested that this reconstruction explains the presence of an Etruscan-speaking community in sixth-century-BC Lemnos. An interesting corollary of this theory is that the Sea Peoples were present in the Mycenaean world some considerable time before its collapse in the early twelfth century

link http://www.talanta.nl/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/TAL-40-412008-2009-pag-151-172-DeLigt.pdf

http://dienekes.blogspot.it/2015/02/italic-eteocretan-sea-peoples.html

Already discussed here

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...akers-From-Sicily-Sardinia-and-Mainland-Italy

 

[Pax Augusta]

a second Jung conference

"News about the Aegean-Italian contacts at the time of the Sea Peoples ?"

 

[Cato]

Delete post

 

[bicicleur 2]

maybe the invaders in northern Italy were Urnfield warriors and related to the southern warriors in the Tollense Valley battle

anyway, many theories still exist, allthough many have been eliminated by more secure carbon dating and calibration
if there is no DNA we can't tell

the same applies to the Filistines in the Levant

 

[Cato]

EDIT probably they were Sub Appennine warriors..he mention this culture at 14.38 and MBA is too early for Proto Villanova..

 

[Pygmalion]

There is interesting material evidence connecting Sardinia to the Aegean and Levant too.
For instance in the settlement of Kommos, Southern Crete, there are a lot of Nuragic vases dating to the late 14th century bc, and we know that from Kommos it is only a matter of 2 days or so to reach Eastern Libya and Egypt, from Libya the sea peoples launched their attacks, they were allied with the kings of the Libyans, we know this from Egyptian texts; there is a settlement in coastal Libya, Marsa Matruh, now Western Egypt, but back then it was considered a Libyan territory, where a lot of Cretan and Cypriot pottery has been found, it is likely that the sea peoples arrived at that port, and there they met with their Libyan allies: https://www.oxbowbooks.com/oxbow/marsa-matruh-i.htmlIn the settlement of Kommos, along with Nuragic pottery, archaeologists have also discovered a shipyard, where a stone anchor was found, that anchor is strikingly similar to one found recently in Sardinia, so it probably isn't a coincidence that bronze age Sardinian pottery was found at Kommos, this means Sardinians were often in contact with Cretans:

A recent archaeological publication also states the presence of Sardinian sailors in Crete:http://honorfrostfoundation.org/up-...-mediterranean-linda-hulin-and-s-german-2016/
"In sum, this group of rooms seem to have prepared and served food in significant quantities, larger than one would expect for purely domestic purposes. In the innermost room there were also fragments of three imported vessels: a Sardinian jar and dolio, and an Egyptian amphora. The outer room also contained a Sardinian bowl, and the courtyard contained a Sardinian jar, as well as a Cypriot milk bowl and two Canaanite jars. Sardinian vessels are relatively rare at Kommos, most are in the elite settlement area up the hill and present commodity storage vessels (Watrous 1992: 163-7). The vessels in Building N, particularly the cooking pot, suggests food preparation to Sardinian taste: either Sardinian sailors or locals catering for visitors from the central Mediterranean. Small scraps of bronze, associated with patches of burning suggests small-scale metal working, comparable to activities at Marsa Matruh."

There is also archaeological evidence of Sardinian presence at Cyprus, where a Nuragic vase imported directly from Sardinia and another Nuragic vase made locally were found in 2010 in the settlement of Pyla Kokkinokremos, a short lived fortified town that was inhabited from the late 13th to the early 12th century bc, that settlement has often been claimed to be a sea peoples' settlement, or at the very least a multiethnic town with Aegean and Anatolian settlers along with the local Cypriots, of course we know that the sea peoples were a multiethnic confederation.There are also finds of Sardinian pottery in Sicily (Cannatello) dating to the 14-13th century bc, and at Lipari (Aeolian islands) dating to the 12-10th century bc, right after the destruction of the acropolis (but possibly there is some in the layer before the fire as well), which was resettled by a group different from the original inhabitants.Vice versa there are Mycenean and Cypriot vases in many sites in Sardinia, both locally made and imported, attesting again to the direct links between the Aegean people and the Sardinians, and it's wroth mentioning that the biggest number of Cypriot oxhide ingots out of all the Mediterranean regions has been found in Sardinia.Finally, there is some Sicilian and Malta like pottery in 14-12th century bc Sardinia, and there is evidence for an even older pig trade between Sardinia and Sicily/South Italy, dating back to the 18-14th century bc, which has been recently revealed thanks to a genetics study.All this evidence suggests that the Aegean, Eastern Mediterranean and Central Mediterranean (that is Sardinia, Sicily and South Italy) were deeply interconnected, this archaeological evidence goes along well with the textual Egyptian textual evidence, in Egyptian texts the foreign enemies were said to be a confederation of Libyans, Aegeans (Licyans/Lukka, Peleset/Pelasgian, Ekwesh/Achean) and then we have these unidentified tribes like Sherden, Shekelesh and Weshesh, that many scholars have identified with Sardinians,
Sicels and Oscians

"The wretched, fallen chief of Libya, Meryey, son of Ded, has fallen upon the country of Tehenu with his bowmen – Sherden, Shekelesh, Ekwesh, Lukka, Teresh, Taking the best of every warrior and every man of war of his country. He has brought his wife and his children – leaders of the camp, and he has reached the western boundary in the fields of Perire""

 

[Cato]

Ok i've checked, it seems that Lipari was invaded two times, firstly by the Sub Apennine culture in the late MBA-early LBA and then by Protovillanovan shortly later...the same happened in the rest of Southern Italy.

Alla fine del 1300 a .C . avviene nelle isole Eolie un altro radicale cambia-mento di cultura, attestato da un nuovo villaggio con capanne ovali che si sovrappongono a quelle distrutte dell’età precedente, e dalla ceramica rappresentata da vasi del sub-Appenninico.

Ad un Ausonio I si sostituisce un Ausonio II (1150-900 a .C .), che presenta elementi nuovi simili ad una nuova facies culturale, detta “protovillanoviana”

http://www.regione.sicilia.it/benic...info/pubblicazioni/Lipari/Guida_Museo_ITA.pdf

so two invasions from North to South. Likely they brought U152, steppe admixture and Italic languages

Reconstruction of Roca Vecchia

 

[Pygmalion]

The complete abandonment of all Terramare towns (60 sites or so, some reaching more than 1,000 inhabitants) in Emilia during the 12th century bc due to a drought is also probably connected with these invasions from the North that took place at that time, all those people had to move somewhere, since their homeland in the Pinaura Padana had become uninhabitable.

 

[Cato]

The complete abandonment of all Terramare towns (60 sites or so, some reaching more than 1,000 inhabitants) in Emilia during the 12th century bc due to a drought is also probably connected with these invasions from the North that took place at that time, all those people had to move somewhere, since their homeland in the Pinaura Padana had become uninhabitable.

Of course, the diffusion of the Protovillanovan culture/cremation basically represent the exodus of the Terramare people from the Po Plain..About 150.000 persons left it in the LBA

 

[Pax Augusta]

Of course, the diffusion of the Protovillanovan culture/cremation basically represent the exodus of the Terramare people from the Po Plain..

Only to some extent. Terramare and proto-Villanovans weren't exactly the same people and neither the same culture. But Terramare may have anticipated aspects of the next proto-Villanovan culture.

 

[Cato]

Only to some extent. Terramare and proto-Villanovans weren't exactly the same people and neither the same culture.

Protovillanovans represent the mixture of Sub Appennine and Terramare from what i know.

 

[Pax Augusta]

Protovillanovans represent the mixture of Sub Appennine and Terramare from what i know

Proto-Villanovans represent the arrival of people of the Urnfield culture.

 

[Cato]

It represents the arrival of people of the Urnfield culture.

In the Bietti Sestieri book L'Italia nell'età del bronzo e del ferro : dalle palafitte a Romolo (2200-700 a.C.), 2010. she wrote that Terramare peoples from the Po Plain established themselves in Tuscany and the Marche where they formed the Chiusi-Cetona and Pianello di Genga Protovillanovan-facies, other founded Frattesina in Veneto...no mention of the Urnfield culture, except for the Canegrate culture in the North-West

but I'm open to all possibilities..

 

[Pax Augusta]

In the Bietti Sestieri book L'Italia nell'età del bronzo e del ferro : dalle palafitte a Romolo (2200-700 a.C.), 2010. she wrote that Terramare peoples from the Po Plain established themselves in Tuscany and the Marche where they formed the Chiusi-Cetona and Pianello di Genga Protovillanovan-facies, other founded Frattesina in Veneto...no mention of the Urnfield culture, except for the Canegrate culture in the North-West

but I'm open to all possibilities..

Betti Sestieri is well known for her "original theories" hardly accepted by all the other scholars.

David W. Anthony in "The Horse, The Wheel and Language"

The widely separated pockets of Yamnaya settlement in the lower Danube
valley and the Balkans established speakers of late Proto-Indo-European di-
alects in scattered islands where, if they remained isolated from one another,
they could have differentiated over centuries into various Indo-European
languages. The many thousands of Yamnaya kurgans in eastern Hungary
suggest a more continuous occupation of the landscape by a larger population
of immigrants, one that could have acquired power and prestige partly just
through its numerical weight. This regional group could have spawned both
pre-Italic and pre-Celtic. Bell Beaker sites of the Csepel type around Buda-
pest, west of the Yamnaya settlement region, are dated about 2800-2600
BCE. They could have been a bridge between Yamnaya on their east and
Austria/Southern Germany to their west, through which Yamnaya dialects
spread from Hungary into Austria and Bavaria, where they later developed
into Proto-Celtic. 31 Pre-Italic could have developed among the dialects
that remained in Hungary, ultimately spreading into Italy through the
Urnfield and Villanovan cultures. Eric Hamp and others have revived the
argument that Italic and Celtic shared a common parent, so a single migra-
tion stream could have contained dialects that later were ancestral to both. 32
Archaeologically, however, the Yamnaya immigrants here, as elsewhere,
left no lasting material impression except their kurgans.

È più complesso della ricostruzione della Betti Sestieri. Ma ora non ho il tempo di recuperarti altro materiale. Conoscitrice del proto-villanoviano è la Bartoloni, non la Betti Sestieri che è esperta del Bronzo in modo più estensivo ma anche più generico. Che i proto-villanoviani siano collegati ai campi d'urne è la teoria più accettata all'estero e i principali esperti di campi d'urne sono stranieri. Ovviamente ci fu un rimescolamento di popolazioni e più movimenti ma i Terramare sono arrivati molto prima in Italia e sembrano collegati a Polada. Nel nord Italia quello che Hencken etichetta nella mappa come proto-villanoviano è in realtà Canegrate. Ma sempre di derivazione dai campi d'urne, solo che ci furono un movimento più da est e un altro più da ovest. Poi se ci mettiamo spulciare ogni studioso italiano vengono fuori le ipotesi contrastanti persino tra due archeologi che hanno la stessa identica cattedra nella stessa università. E non a caso in questo thread stiamo commentando il lavoro di un archeologo austriaco!