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Thread: Ancient Lombard DNA

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    Ancient Lombard DNA

    This is from a poster of a recently presented paper by C. Eduardo Amorim

    See:
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/sgvuxv3h2p...nxton.pdf?dl=0

    This is another one where I'm going to need the actual paper to figure out what's going on.

    Did they find that the Langobard samples from Hungary already included samples much like Finns and other far north and northeastern Europeans and also ones that were already very "Italian like". One of those Hungary samples lands practically on my head going by it's placement on the map of Italian variation.

    Is the exact same thing true for the samples found in the Lombard sample in western Piemonte?

    As to the former I suppose it makes sense as a sign that the Langobards mixed with still very EEF like populations in Iron Age Hungary.

    However, if that's the case, then how can any estimates be made of how much impact the Langobards had on northern and Central Italian genetics?

    Lombard DNA.jpg

    Also, what do they mean about all these CEU samples in northern Italy. Didn't they use anything other than 1000 genomes? What they may be picking up is "Celtic" samples from the Celtic migrations into Northern Italy that first arrived around 400 BC.

    Also, what place and time period does that lone "Roman" sample come from? It seems to place at the meeting point between Spanish and Northern Italian populations. "Roman" meant different things at different time periods. Is it a local sample from Piemonte from the same time as the Langobard settlement?

    Any insights would be greatly appreciated.

    Also, if you can get bigger and clearer pictures of the various graphics in the poster that would be great.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    This is from a poster of a recently presented paper by C. Eduardo Amorim

    See:
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/sgvuxv3h2p...nxton.pdf?dl=0

    This is another one where I'm going to need the actual paper to figure out what's going on.

    Did they find that the Langobard samples from Hungary already included samples much like Finns and other far north and northeastern Europeans and also ones that were already very "Italian like". One of those Hungary samples lands practically on my head going by it's placement on the map of Italian variation.

    Is the exact same thing true for the samples found in the Lombard sample in western Piemonte?

    As to the former I suppose it makes sense as a sign that the Langobards mixed with still very EEF like populations in Iron Age Hungary.

    However, if that's the case, then how can any estimates be made of how much impact the Langobards had on northern and Central Italian genetics?

    Lombard DNA.jpg

    Also, what do they mean about all these CEU samples in northern Italy. Didn't they use anything other than 1000 genomes? What they may be picking up is "Celtic" samples from the Celtic migrations into Northern Italy that first arrived around 400 BC.

    Also, what place and time period does that lone "Roman" sample come from? It seems to place at the meeting point between Spanish and Northern Italian populations. "Roman" meant different things at different time periods. Is it a local sample from Piemonte from the same time as the Langobard settlement?

    Any insights would be greatly appreciated.

    Also, if you can get bigger and clearer pictures of the various graphics in the poster that would be great.
    What is SK in the PCA? Roman with southern French or north-western Italians?
    Last edited by Pax Augusta; 26-11-17 at 18:27.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    What is SK in the PCA? Roman with southern French? Oh, right. Eduardo Amorim sounds so Atlantic facade.
    No, it means Slovakia. That's a sample which somehow was labeled Slovakian in the original Novembre study, I think, but clearly is not. It's been wrong ever since. Novembre would have to be the one to correct the PCA by removing it. Just ignore it. They're just using it to plot the ancient samples on a broadly European dataset.

    Do you have any idea what's going on with those samples?

    If this was a thread about Levantine samples found in Southern Italy there would be 100 posts by now! :)

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    Any Y-DNA results with these samples???

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    is the TSI component also the result of import from Hungary to Italy, or is this 3-component model to simple to make a differentiation?

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    Are these all from the same era? If so it's clear this was no longer a homogenous population by the time they came to Italy and the same can be applied to the Roman sample as a Roman at that time could refer to anyone from Britian to the Levant. I'm guessing we'd see the same thing for the Avars since these two look essentially like Slavs, these weren't homogenous tribes but multi ethnic confederations varying similarly as the Roman Empire did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    is the TSI component also the result of import from Hungary to Italy, or is this 3-component model to simple to make a differentiation?
    I have no idea, really, since all I know is what's on the poster to which I linked, and I can't even make out some of the graphs.

    I doubt there were any Tuscans in Pannonia, though, so I have a feeling perhaps it's that people pretty similar to modern Tuscans were still living in Pannonia all the way into the post Roman era? Perhaps it's like the fact that Globular Amphora people were pretty close to modern Tuscans, or Spain Chalcolithic?

    This may be a problem having to do with only using 1000 genomes populations. That's how they wound up with CEU people in Italy too.

    @Bollox,
    I don't know

    @Promenade,
    I don't know. This is becoming a theme, isn't it? :) It would seem so to me. I mean, it makes sense for the Italian cemetery, but some of those samples are clearly labeled as coming from the cemetery in present day Hungary.

    I think we'll have to wait for the paper, but it certainly is intriguing.

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    Angela,

    Looks like an earlier paper was done on the same population? Or is it the same paper? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25369022

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bollox79 View Post
    Angela,

    Looks like an earlier paper was done on the same population? Or is it the same paper? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25369022
    I think it's a new paper. The same group has been studying those samples forever. They're slow as molasses in January, almost as bad as the group in Bolzano working on Otzi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bollox79 View Post
    Angela,

    Looks like an earlier paper was done on the same population? Or is it the same paper? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25369022

    2014 paper....link below is the full paper


    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0110793
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    How interesting. I knew nothing of this culture.

    I wonder if it's indeed possible that the Lombards, who seem to have originally been a very northern even northeastern group could have absorbed these people while in Pannonia?

    The red marker is Szolad, the Lombard settlement. Look how close it is to Keszthely to its west.

    Click to enlarge.
    Attachment 9462

    I wonder if the dates match, though?

    Well, I did say one of those Szolad samples lands virtually on my head. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    How interesting. I knew nothing of this culture.

    I wonder if it's indeed possible that the Lombards, who seem to have originally been a very northern even northeastern group could have absorbed these people while in Pannonia?

    The red marker is Szolad, the Lombard settlement. Look how close it is to Keszthely to its west.

    Click to enlarge.


    I wonder if the dates match, though?

    Well, I did say one of those Szolad samples lands virtually on my head. :)
    I can imagine that Langobards picked most of romanized locals from Panonia and Noricum to repopulate northern Italy:

    Following this victory, Alboin decided to lead his people to Italy, which had become severely depopulated and devastated after the long Gothic War (535–554) between the Byzantine Empire and the Ostrogothic Kingdom there.
    Such scenario could fairly explain the PCA plot. After most of the Panonian Romans fled to Italy, Slavs from Slovakia and Ukraine repopulated the deserted land.

    These Keszthely people were the Roman survivors in Panonia:

    Under the Avars, the Roman castle of Fenékpuszta near Keszthely and the surroundings were not occupied, so the original Romanized inhabitants lived on undisturbed. They paid food and artisan goods for peace from the Avars. After 568 new Christian Romanized Pannonians arrived here, probably from the destroyed Aquincum (modern Budapest).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    I can imagine that Langobards picked most of romanized locals from Panonia and Noricum to repopulate northern Italy:



    Such scenario could fairly explain the PCA plot. After most of the Panonian Romans fled to Italy, Slavs from Slovakia and Ukraine repopulated the deserted land.

    These Keszthely people were the Roman survivors in Panonia:
    Personally, I no longer take what the ancient authors say all that literally any more. Genetics has already proved them wrong a lot of times. So often, annals in the past were just to inflate the ego of the general or leader. The same thing happened with the Ligures. If you were to believe the Roman reports, all the Apuani were either exterminated or exiled to Sabine lands. Meanwhile , there's no sign of them there, and the mountains of Liguria are full of signs that they fled there and returned later.

    In regard to the Lombards, in particular, according to isotope analysis in the first paper by this group they spent only one generation in Pannonia. I don't think there was any triumphant conquest going on: these people were stressed physically, especially the children.

    "The child mortality rate of 22.7% exhibited by the age group infans I (0–6 y.) appears higher than that of contemporaneous cemeteries in south-western Germany [26], for instance, but may be a reflection of different burial customs. While the risk of contracting infection and complications generally increases at the end of the nursing period due to the introduction of solid food, many active periosteal lesions of children at Szólád point to additional chronic infectious and deficiency diseases or anaemia which led to a number of infant deaths. Because these findings primarily occur among children with Sr isotope ratios in range II, who, we assume, were born at Szólád, the increased child mortality rate is unlikely to have been caused by a mobile lifestyle. Malnourishment, however, due to the fact that the farming economy had not yet been fully established in the new place of residence, could possibly explain the phenomenon. Both the rich offerings of weaponry in some of the male burials and the recurring evidence of interpersonal violence point to the difficult political situation during the Migration Period."

    It looks more like a stop to regroup and gather strength to me, although it's clear the elites had rich grave goods.

    "An initial patrilocal group with narrower male but wider female Sr isotope distribution settled at Szólád, whilst the majority of subadults represented in the cemetery yielded a distinct Sr isotope signature. Owing to the virtual absence of Szólád-born adults in the cemetery, we may conclude that the settlement was abandoned after approx. one generation.

    I think we're probably looking at a situation where a group of marauding males from far northern Europe picked up women along the way, creating a group with a very wide assortment of mtDna. Poor women, they weren't treated very well. They seem to have been knocked around and to have not had the same diet as the elite males.
    "
    Sex-specific patterns point to social inequality as reflected in the men's preferred access to animal-derived foodstuffs. This is especially remarkable among the well-furnished burials, which probably represent higher social ranks. The collagen stable isotope data do not point to an extensive consumption of freshwater fish, which would have been readily available from Lake Balaton nearby. Whilst further confirmation could be obtained from sulphur isotope data [66], [94], this observation supports the notion that the community had not long arrived in the locality and suggests that they adhered to the sociocultural traditions that had previously been established in areas where fish was less readily available."

    Once the paper is released we'll know more, as we can check whether the samples from Hungary with the "CEU" autosomal signature and the "Southern" signature are often women. If the elite males also had varied autosomal signatures we'll know whether they incorporated men from the areas through which they traveled too.

    "
    They have yielded evidence of funerary customs and characteristics of material culture that are comparable to those in the surrounding areas and the regions around the postulated route of migration. This has raised questions and hypotheses regarding the identification and social structure of the Lombards as well as the impact of residential relocation. Despite snippets of information from written records and archaeological evidence it still remains unclear whether any migrations of larger groups took place, or whether the sources were biased by military interests and thus possibly exaggerated the role played by mass movement.:"

    "The biological evidence suggests that the residents of Szólád were not a close reproductive community. This is in agreement with the notion of a partnership of convenience that resembled Germanic tribe formations with people of different cultural backgrounds maintaining regular contact with other contemporary gentes. Influence from several different European regions is supported archaeologically by the grave constructions that included ledge graves and graves with straight walls, some of which were surrounded by rectangular or circular ditches. The stylistic analysis of the grave goods, such as brooches and weaponry, revealed parallels to south-western and central Germany, Moravia and the middle Danube as well as to Italy. The latter also indicates the possible presence of members of the Roman population of Pannonia, who had settled the area prior to the Lombard period. "

    That reminds me...The use of the word "Romanized" for this Hungarian group gives the impression that they are local people who were just Romanized as to culture. However, take a look at where some of the "Szolad" samples land in Italy. Some of them are very far south. Either this was a refuge area for people who were still largely EEF, or there was a lot of Roman colonization around there.




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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    We do have the modern equivalent of those ancient authors you no longer trust; they're the anthro-forum t-rolls and nationalistic blogging nutcases (eurogenes, anyone?).
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    We do have the modern equivalent of those ancient authors you no longer trust; they're the anthro-forum t-rolls and nationalistic blogging nutcases (eurogenes, anyone?).
    why only them? they are just a few marginals
    we have the climate lobby
    we have political correctness

    there is fake news and self-declared experts everywhere, also in accepted mainstream and also in traditional media

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    it there some historical connection between these guys and Noricum?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    No, it means Slovakia. That's a sample which somehow was labeled Slovakian in the original Novembre study, I think, but clearly is not. It's been wrong ever since. Novembre would have to be the one to correct the PCA by removing it. Just ignore it. They're just using it to plot the ancient samples on a broadly European dataset.

    Do you have any idea what's going on with those samples?

    If this was a thread about Levantine samples found in Southern Italy there would be 100 posts by now! :)
    The Slovakian sample was from a slovak Jewish guy. It was corrected later by the authors. Real slovaks placed a bit nore north east than czechs

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    it there some historical connection between these guys and Noricum?
    Yes, they were two neigbouring Roman provinces:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...nd_Thracia.jpg

    This too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hallstatt_LaTene.png

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    That reminds me...The use of the word "Romanized" for this Hungarian group gives the impression that they are local people who were just Romanized as to culture. However, take a look at where some of the "Szolad" samples land in Italy. Some of them are very far south. Either this was a refuge area for people who were still largely EEF, or there was a lot of Roman colonization around there.
    They seem to represent Roman Empire average. The question is were there also any indigenous Panonians or Dalmatians among them.

    If yes, which of the circles could belong to them or be the closest match?

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/attach...achmentid=9459

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    why only them? they are just a few marginals
    we have the climate lobby
    we have political correctness

    there is fake news and self-declared experts everywhere, also in accepted mainstream and also in traditional media
    Why only them? I wasn't saying they're the only equivalents. It was just a joke post not to be taken seriously and I wanted to choose a group relevant to anthro forums.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    They seem to represent Roman Empire average. The question is were there also any indigenous Panonians or Dalmatians among them.

    If yes, which of the circles could belong to them or be the closest match?

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/attach...achmentid=9459
    I don't think there was any "Roman average". We have "gladiator" or "soldier" samples from the Roman era in Britain, and they're pretty similar to modern day Brits and Dutch, Belgian, and northern French people. The one "outlier" is clearly from either the Levant or Arabia.

    In some areas you do have Roman colonies of veterans, so you would get some admixture, but after a hundred years the signature would start to wash out because of intermarriage with the much larger surrounding population. Anyway, there don't seem to be very many in Pannonia, at least not in the second century, so that part of my speculation upthread is probably wrong.




    I think it's far more likely that these "Italian" plotting people are the "native" people of the area. This was densely populated EEF territory. There wasn't the large effect from the Indo-European migrations that we see further north in Europe. Remember the results in Mathiesen et al, where even in the Iron Age the "steppe" component in most of the samples was about 10%, and some of the samples also looked quite "Tuscan" like. Let's not forget that the GAC had many of the hall marks of an Indo-European culture, but they were just MN European farmers genetically. Language change apparently took more, but 10-20% seems to have been enough.

    The closest ancient population to modern Italians is often the Hungarian Bronze Age, which also isn't very "steppe". Actually, a lot of this is starting to fall into place for me.

    As for the "CEU" type samples, I'm not sure why the authors are surprised. The area had experienced its own "Celtic" migrations, similar to what had happened in Northern Italy and all the way down to Rome. I would think there might be "Celtic" settlements, as there was a "Lombard" one.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonia

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    2014 paper....link below is the full paper
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0110793
    from Pannonia to Italy
    http://real.mtak.hu/37597/1/The_Lomb...y_Posan_La.pdf

    ..

    ..

    about Gepids
    The Gepids (Latin: Gepidae, Gipedae) were an East Germanic tribe. They were closely related to, or a subdivision of, the Goths.

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    roman empire based prior to 400AD , before Lombard, Gepid or Avar invasion.
    Diocese ( provinces ) split by ethnic race by Roman standards....................note that the Dacians escaped from their homeland in Romania to seek refuge south of the Danube river.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dioces...a_-_AD_400.png

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    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't think there was any "Roman average". We have "gladiator" or "soldier" samples from the Roman era in Britain, and they're pretty similar to modern day Brits and Dutch, Belgian, and northern French people. The one "outlier" is clearly from either the Levant or Arabia.
    In some areas you do have Roman colonies of veterans, so you would get some admixture, but after a hundred years the signature would start to wash out because of intermarriage with the much larger surrounding population. Anyway, there don't seem to be very many in Pannonia, at least not in the second century, so that part of my speculation upthread is probably wrong.

    I think it's far more likely that these "Italian" plotting people are the "native" people of the area. This was densely populated EEF territory. There wasn't the large effect from the Indo-European migrations that we see further north in Europe. Remember the results in Mathiesen et al, where even in the Iron Age the "steppe" component in most of the samples was about 10%, and some of the samples also looked quite "Tuscan" like. Let's not forget that the GAC had many of the hall marks of an Indo-European culture, but they were just MN European farmers genetically. Language change apparently took more, but 10-20% seems to have been enough.
    The closest ancient population to modern Italians is often the Hungarian Bronze Age, which also isn't very "steppe". Actually, a lot of this is starting to fall into place for me.
    As for the "CEU" type samples, I'm not sure why the authors are surprised. The area had experienced its own "Celtic" migrations, similar to what had happened in Northern Italy and all the way down to Rome. I would think there might be "Celtic" settlements, as there was a "Lombard" one.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonia
    you shouldn't overestimate these colonies

    e.g. the Roman impact in Belgium was limited to the fertile loess plateaus, just south of the road between Cologne and Calais
    and yes, probably populated mainly by veterans, the Romans themselves didn't like so much coming to these areas

    I see many blanc spaces on the map

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