Classify Ukrainians

[Tomenable]

Anthropological plates of Western and Central Ukrainians:

Source: https://antropologia-fizyczna.pl/st...ropa/ukraina-genetyka-i-antropologia-fizyczna

 

[Tomenable]

These two are Dinarid I think:

What about the rest of them?

 

[Ziober]

Everyone have any kind of Iberian look

 

[Tomenable]

Everyone have any kind of Iberian look

Ukrainians look Iberian in your opinion?

 

[Angela]

I know what Ziober means: some of them have a very Mediterranean look.

Others, however, have a very "Slavic" look, others more "Baltic", some others definitely have a touch of Asiatic. It's like those old composites of athletes that Dienekes used to do in that you could make mistakes on lots of them, but a lot of the Russian ones could only be Russian.

Just numbering the rows from one at the top, I think 1,3,4, and 5, among many others, look Med.

Number 12, among others, has that "Asiatic" look I'm talking about.

Number 13 looks very "Slavic" to me.

The men in the embroidered white shirts look very Turkish.

In the second group of women the first two look like my people.

In the group of men right after that the first two men could pass as Italian.

There's an awful lot of variation.

 

[Ygorcs]

There's an awful lot of variation.

I agree. The best classification I can probably find for them is: recently mixed people with lots of different ancestral traits (mostly European, but also East Asian and Near Eastern) still present in specific clusters of the population. Some of them look very Northeastern Europe, many others Mediterranean, others more similar to Central Europeans, others with visible but minor East Asian traits. I wonder what the autosomal DNA of Ukrainians should have to say about that, and also if there is a clear differentiation between regions of Ukraine (after all, it's larger than France and Spain).

 

[Angela]

I agree. The best classification I can probably find for them is: recently mixed people with lots of different ancestral traits (mostly European, but also East Asian and Near Eastern) still present in specific clusters of the population. Some of them look very Northeastern Europe, many others Mediterranean, others more similar to Central Europeans, others with visible but minor East Asian traits. I wonder what the autosomal DNA of Ukrainians should have to say about that, and also if there is a clear differentiation between regions of Ukraine (after all, it's larger than France and Spain).

Yes, I wonder about that too.

If I had to guess I'd say that the Med looking people come from the areas bordering Moldova and other parts of the south. Not only was that bordering EEF like "Old Europe", but there was a lot of Greek settlement there.

From what I remember of my history, a lot of the Slavic population actually was moved there after a lot of repopulation.

Maybe the Turkish looking ones are in the Crimea; I think Tatars were settled there.

I don't know how much influence Genova would have had, because it was mostly just mercantile, not like the Greek colonies.

 

[Tomenable]

When we take into account only SNPs responsible for phenotype (including face shape), some Ukrainians are close to Neolithic Stuttgart:

https://antropologia-fizyczna.pl/images/statystyki/global/phenoq4/pca-phenoq4.jpg

^^^ This PCA is based only on 750 phenotype SNPs, not on whole genome:

http://translate.google.com/transla...-analiza-na-bazie-genow-warunkujacych-fenotyp

 

[Angela]

I think a lot of the Med type men have an Andy Garcia vibe, which imo is a very, very good thing.

He often plays Italians in American film and tv, including in The Godfather. He's too white to fit the stereotype of a Hispanic, I guess.



@Ziober
Probably Spanish.

 

[Angela]

Ziober,
Please start a separate thread for these. Once you've done it I'll delete the pictures. Let's not hijack Tomenable's thread.

 

[Angela]

I think a lot of the Med type men have an Andy Garcia vibe, which imo is a very, very good thing.

He often plays Italians in American film and tv, including in The Godfather. He's too white to fit the stereotype of a Hispanic, I guess.



@Ziober
Probably Spanish.

Profile. Compare to above plates. That's Vera Faminga, and she also has a "Med" look to me.

Variations on a theme: Cuban, Half Southern Italian, Full Southern Italian

100% Southern Italian:

50%

I could go on forever. There's a serious amount of Med phenotypes there.

 

[Dagne]

Look at the drawings of Soviet Anthropologists (published in 1970) - Ukrainians are in pic. 42-48
To my mind three out of six Lithuanian "anthropological types" look more like Russians, but never mind, it is still very interesting...

https://odindvoitch.wordpress.com/2017/04/30/антропологические-типы-населения-сс/

 

[Milan.M]

Hmm,most of them can pass as South-Slavs depends on regions,perhaps not all here understand Cyrillic to compare the regions.

Ukranians from Carphatians;(Common types among South-Slavs)

Central Ukraine; (Not very common types among South-Slavs)

Ukrainians from Volyn,north west Ukraine (Common types among South Slavs)

Central Ukraine again,a lot of variation among this pictures,first look bit Asiatic,while other two have bit "Dinaric" influence,two others are common types among South Slavs.

Ukrainians above Dniester(Western Ukraine) last two common among South Slavs

Ukrainians from Carphatians again;(Can be found among South-Slavs,but they can pass as Albanian maybe better)

Gutsul and Hotin woman the first Carpathia mountain dwellers not sure about second,anyway nearby regions(Common types among South Slavs)

Ukrainians from Bukovina south west Ukraine,last look bit "Turkic" or Tatar,maybe related groups

Chernihiv region,central north Ukraine (can be found among South Slavs)

Ukraianins from Polesia,north central to north west Ukraine,( not so common looks among South-Slavs,but can be found)

Central Ukraine again some variation the last have bit Asiatic others "European" features

 

[Milan.M]

I know what Ziober means: some of them have a very Mediterranean look.


There's an awful lot of variation.

Most of them you think are "Mediterranean" have Dinaric look which sometimes can be mistaken for Mediterranean look,Dinaric people have larger stature and perhaps bit more fair skin.

Rarely you can see a man of stature and example you gave like Andy Garcia

 

[Angela]

Most of them you think are "Mediterranean" have Dinaric look which sometimes can be mistaken for Mediterranean look,Dinaric people have larger stature and perhaps bit more fair skin.

Rarely you can see a man of stature and example you gave like Andy Garcia

I used "Med" type very broadly. Also, I think if you look at the plates, a lot of the ones to which I was referring have long, Mediterranean skulls, as does Andy Garcia. I personally think "Dinaric" is a very over-used term. Not every long nosed person is "Dinaric".

If by stature you mean height, Andy Garcia is not very tall. His listed height is 5'10". I don't know, obviously, about the men in the plates.

Anyway, a lot of them certainly don't look "Slavic" or Russian to me.

The skew geographically is about as I predicted.

 

[srdceleva]

the non asiatic looking ones can pass in slovakia. Slovaks in my opinion kind of look like not so eastern ukrainians. Some have clear balkanic and med ifnluence, possible Jewish admixture, especially among some of the women.

 

[Milan.M]

I used "Med" type very broadly. Also, I think if you look at the plates, a lot of the ones to which I was referring have long, Mediterranean skulls, as does Andy Garcia. I personally think "Dinaric" is a very over-used term. Not every long nosed person is "Dinaric".

If by stature you mean height, Andy Garcia is not very tall. His listed height is 5'10". I don't know, obviously, about the men in the plates.

Anyway, a lot of them certainly don't look "Slavic" or Russian to me.

The skew geographically is about as I predicted.

Well i can say Med is over-used term too the same way because for many Dinarics you can say are Mediterranean cause are similar.Dinaric is still different than Mediterranean i guess in height,stature and are well build,bit more fair skin than Mediterranean and hair color can vary from black to dark blonde or blonde
(Noric) which is still Dinaric.

If by Slavic you mean Russian than you will find similar variation even among them,with perhaps bit more Asiatic looks.

 

[Milan.M]

the non asiatic looking ones can pass in slovakia. Slovaks in my opinion kind of look like not so eastern ukrainians. Some have clear balkanic and med ifnluence, possible Jewish admixture, especially among some of the women.

Oh "Balkanic" look is Jewish admixture to you,those Balkan semites.
Well Slavs certainly aren't Nordics nor they ever were.



1. "(...) Nay further, they do not differ at all from one another in appearance. For they are all exceptionally tall and stalwart men, while their bodies and hair are neither very fair or very blonde, nor indeed do they incline entirely to the dark type, but they are slightly ruddy in color. (...)"

- "(...) Valerian chose one of the Sklaveni who are men of mighty stature. (...)"


2. Theophilact Simokatta (describing events from year 595):


"(...) The Emperor was with great curiosity listening to stories about this tribe, he has welcomed these newcomers from the land of barbarians, and after being amazed by their height and mighty stature, he sent these men to Heraclea. (...)"


3. Theophanes the Confessor (describing the same event from year 595):


"(...) The Emperor was admiring their beauty and their stalwart stature. (...)


How pitty even medieval Sclavinia is different in hair and complextion than the Romantic Germanic influence on Slavic imagination.

 

[Angela]

Well i can say Med is over-used term too the same way because for many Dinarics you can say are Mediterranean cause are similar.Dinaric is still different than Mediterranean i guess in height,stature and are well build,bit more fair skin than Mediterranean and hair color can vary from black to dark blonde or blonde
(Noric) which is still Dinaric.

If by Slavic you mean Russian than you will find similar variation even among them,with perhaps bit more Asiatic looks.

Look, I'm not going to get into a protracted discussion about this.

Dinaric: A tall, brachycephalic type of intermediate pigmentation, usually planoccipital, and showing the facial and nasal prominence of Near Eastern peoples. The basic population of the whole Dinaric-Alpine highlands from Switzerland to Epirus, also in the Carpathians and Caucasus, as well as Syria and Asia Minor. Apparently a brachycephalized blend in which Atlanto-Mediterranean and Cappadocian strains are important, with Alpine acting as the brachycephalizing agent in mixture. Borreby and Corded elements, also Nordic, appear to be involved in some regions. ​

Pontic Mediterranean: Along the northern and western shores of the Black Sea are found, among other populations, brunet Mediterraneans of a generalized type, called Pontic by the Russian anthropologists, who are usually of medium to tall stature and who seem related on the one hand to the Atlanto-Mediterraneans and on the other to the long-faced Mediterranean prototype of Asia Minor and the Caucasus. Inland from the Black Sea shores they are found sporadically in Russia, Poland, and the countries along the upper course of the Danube. They also seem to form an early population level in Serbia and Albania.

The people to whom I referred have long, Mediterranean type skulls. They have dark hair, and Med features. I have no idea if they're tall and big boned and neither do you. Perhaps they're closest to Pontic Med, which is close to Atlanto Med. Whatever.

As for "South Slavs", there are some Slavic looking people among them, some are a blend, but a lot have a definite Med look to them. From what I've seen the percentages vary by country. This all makes sense given the people who settled there.

Most Russians do not at all look Med. Even in the Ukraine, that phenotype skews to the west and south as makes sense because that's bordering EEF "Old Europe".

 

[Milan.M]

Look, I'm not going to get into a protracted discussion about this.

Dinaric: A tall, brachycephalic type of intermediate pigmentation, usually planoccipital, and showing the facial and nasal prominence of Near Eastern peoples. The basic population of the whole Dinaric-Alpine highlands from Switzerland to Epirus, also in the Carpathians and Caucasus, as well as Syria and Asia Minor. Apparently a brachycephalized blend in which Atlanto-Mediterranean and Cappadocian strains are important, with Alpine acting as the brachycephalizing agent in mixture. Borreby and Corded elements, also Nordic, appear to be involved in some regions. ​

The people to whom I referred have long, Mediterranean type skulls. They have dark hair, and Med features. I have no idea if they're tall and big boned and neither do you. Perhaps they're closest to Pontic Med, which is close to Atlanto Med. Whatever.

As for "South Slavs", there are some Slavic looking people among them, some are a blend, but a lot have a definite Med look to them. From what I've seen the percentages vary by country. This all makes sense given the people who settled there.

Most Russians do not at all look Med. Even in the Ukraine, that phenotype skews to the west and south as makes sense because that's bordering EEF "Old Europe".

Even most of Bulgarians belong to Pontic type,this is found along the Black sea coast,i didn't knew you classify that as Mediterranean.As for Slavic appearance just as Italian,there is variation,it is most our imagination in this case to classify people based on their appearance when in this case is more geography than ethnicity or linguistic grouping and whatever affects human appearance or evolution,so please tell me whether more Italian is
Francesco Totti

Fillipo Inzaghi

Or Cassano

Even thought Italy is much smaller teritorically to compare to Slavic territories as a whole,we can do it with South Slavic however.