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Thread: E-m81

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    E-m81

    See:Neus Solé-Morata et al
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-16271-y

    Well, that settles it: it's really young.

    "E-M183 (E-M81) is the most frequent paternal lineage in North Africa and thus it must be considered to explore past historical and demographical processes. Here, by using whole Y chromosome sequences from 32 North African individuals, we have identified five new branches within E-M183. The validation of these variants in more than 200 North African samples, from which we also have information of 13 Y-STRs, has revealed a strong resemblance among E-M183 Y-STR haplotypes that pointed to a rapid expansion of this haplogroup. Moreover, for the first time, by using both SNP and STR data, we have provided updated estimates of the times-to-the-most-recent-common-ancestor (TMRCA) for E-M183, which evidenced an extremely recent origin of this haplogroup (2,000–3,000 ya). Our results also showed a lack of population structure within the E-M183 branch, which could be explained by the recent and rapid expansion of this haplogroup. In spite of a reduction in STR heterozygosity towards the West, which would point to an origin in the Near East, ancient DNA evidence together with our TMRCA estimates point to a local origin of E-M183 in NW Africa."

    Where we find it in southern Europe, for example, it has a very recent origin.





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    I find these dates very recent; maybe a bit too recent? What can explain its curious trails in Western Europe? its distribution is not maritime either in Iberia or in France; seems rather a refugium haplo...? Or displaced slaves during Rome empire? for France it could play, but for Iberia??? I'm amazed.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    e-m81 maybe is recent
    but his ancestor e-L19 was found in 5000 bc in northern morocco
    probably e-m81 originated in situ in northwest africa

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The Moorish invasions of southern Europe date to about fourteen hundred years ago. It makes perfect sense imo. The Moors just got some of the poorest land. That's why they so often rebelled.

    @King John,
    Yes, the authors conclude it probably formed in situ in northwestern Africa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The Moorish invasions of southern Europe date to about fourteen hundred years ago. It makes perfect sense imo. The Moors just got some of the poorest land. That's why they so often rebelled.

    @King John,
    Yes, the authors conclude it probably formed in situ in northwestern Africa.
    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...1b_Y-DNA.shtml

    The highest percentage of E-M81 in Europe is found among the Pasiegos (30%, n=101), an isolated community living in the mountains of Cantabria.

    The Moors never got that far north.

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    YFull since long claims a 2.3 ka TMRCA for E-M81

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-M81/

    It is strange though that such a sudden and such recent expansion with so many descendants didn't leave any trace in the historical record.

    If we would leave out the Arab J1-P58 which arrived in Northern Africa with Islam, E-M81 would reach 100 % in many places.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    It is strange though that such a sudden and such recent expansion with so many descendants didn't leave any trace in the historical record
    I was wondering the same myself. IMHO this is a shift too dramatic to be simply attributed to a very wide and broad phenomenon as the Islamization of North Africa and the subsequent Moorish conquests. Not only that historic period meant the entrance of a new elite of mainly Middle Eastern stock into North Africa, but also it apparently (at least as far as we knew until now) didn't entail any significant population replacement, depopulation or severe displacement of people. Or perhaps it did, the chaos and transformative forces were much stronger than we believed, but somehow, strangely, all of this didn't leave many archaeological nor documented traces?

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    2.3 ka is just before the Punic wars

    it should have left a trace in history

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...1b_Y-DNA.shtml

    The highest percentage of E-M81 in Europe is found among the Pasiegos (30%, n=101), an isolated community living in the mountains of Cantabria.

    The Moors never got that far north.
    That's not exactly the case from my understanding of it, Bicicleur.

    " In 714, a mixed Arab/Berber army of Muslim Moors invaded the upper valleys of the Ebro and succeeded in capturing Amaya, the Cantabrian capital, forcing the Cantabrians back to their traditional frontiers, where they joined forces with the Kingdom of Asturias. "

    The territory right to the south of them wasn't really under strict Christian control until at least the 9th Century.


    In mountain valleys a ydna lineage can reach very high levels through founder effect and drift. It doesn't take a big folk migration.

    At some point people carrying E=M81 took refuge in those mountains.

    E-M81 is far, far too young to be Neolithic or Bronze or even Iron Age in Europe.

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    I don't know, Angela,
    Pasiegos is near the Cantabrian coast, and even on your map, it was never Moorish territory.
    The green arrows in your map are not conquests, they are Moorish raids and the movement of the Moorish army that was defated in Poitiers

    https://www.google.com/maps/place/43...3.857778?hl=en

    Neither does history hint to any Moorish or Islamic DNA.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valles_Pasiegos

    Furthermore I doubt that the Moors were E-M81, they were not North-African, they were the Ummayad dynasty in Baghdad that were replaced by the Abbasid dynasty over there, they were an army on the run, only males, no wives.
    The later - more fundamentalist Islamic Almohavide dynasty from Morocco took over in the 11 th century, but by then the Christian reconquista had already set in in northern Spain.

    And finally, carefully watch figure 1 in the study you mentioned in the 1st post.
    You'll see that all subclades of E-M81 expanded shortly after the TMRCA of E-M81, that is before the times of the Moorish conquest of Iberia.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I don't know, Angela,
    Pasiegos is near the Cantabrian coast, and even on your map, it was never Moorish territory.
    The green arrows in your map are not conquests, they are Moorish raids and the movement of the Moorish army that was defated in Poitiers

    https://www.google.com/maps/place/43...3.857778?hl=en

    Neither does history hint to any Moorish or Islamic DNA.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valles_Pasiegos

    Furthermore I doubt that the Moors were E-M81, they were not North-African, they were the Ummayad dynasty in Baghdad that were replaced by the Abbasid dynasty over there, they were an army on the run, only males, no wives.
    The later - more fundamentalist Islamic Almohavide dynasty from Morocco took over in the 11 th century, but by then the Christian reconquista had already set in in northern Spain.

    And finally, carefully watch figure 1 in the study you mentioned in the 1st post.
    You'll see that all subclades of E-M81 expanded shortly after the TMRCA of E-M81, that is before the times of the Moorish conquest of Iberia.
    No, Bicicleur, the leaders were Near Eastern, but the majority of the troops were North Africans.

    "In 711, troops mostly formed by Moors from North Africa led the Umayyad conquest of Hispania. The Iberian peninsula then came to be known in classical Arabic as Al-Andalus, which at its peak included most of Septimania and modern-day Spain and Portugal."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors

    See:
    http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/MOORISH%20SPAIN.htm
    "The Ajbar Machmua also records a preliminary expedition of 400 men, which was followed in 711 by an army of 7,000 "muslimes, en su mayor parte berberiscos y libertos, pues había poquisimos árabes", with a supplementary contingent of 5,000 men sent later by Musa bin Naser."

    All of the following are from the best thing I've ever read about the Moorish invasions, and the standard text on the subject: A History of Muslim Sicily by Leonard Chiarelli. After reading it, it's clear why the single best uniparental marker to track intrusion into the genome of Sicilians of North African elements is E-M81. He also extensively covers the invasion of Iberia.

    "In 711, Tariq ibn Ziyad ibn Walghu...marched into Spain with a large force made up mostly of Sanhajah Berbers and some Arabs...In 712 they swept through the lands north of the Ebro, marching to the Pyrenees and capturing part of the Basque country. By 102/720 the Muslim forces went beyond the Pyrenees and occupied, for a short time, Narbonne in France. "

    If you remember, we discussed a find of some typically North African men in a warrior grave there.

    "Muslim military successes, however, were not enough to cover the seething frustration of the Berbers over what they felt was Arab haughtiness and prejudice towards them...in 122/740, the Berbers in all of North Africa, under the banner of the Kharijite sect, exploded into rebellion. This coincided with a general uprising in Iran, Iraq and Syria against Umayyad rule....The revolution succeeded and was replaced by the Abbasids. "

    The North Africans in Spain continued to be treated as rather second class citizens, often getting the poorest land.

    I do agree with you that they were in the north for a short time. However, as I also said, a yDna lineage in such mountain valleys can drift to prominence without a large folk migration.

    Given where E-M81 arose and when it arose, there's no other source for Iberia or Sicily, for that matter.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    well, you can't say the distribution of E-M81 in Iberia is reminescent of the presence of the Moors in Iberia :


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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    As to Berbers getting the poorest lands, our glorious school books told us they liked it the Arabs were so generous and benevolent with everyone, the land itself rejoiced

    E-M81 is the lineage that carried Berber languages, the language family itself is very young according to linguists and must have formed in the Iron Age.

    Proto-Berber shows features that clearly distinguish it from all other branches of Afroasiatic, but modern Berber languages are relatively homogeneous. Whereas the split from the other known Afroasiatic branches was very ancient, on the order of 10,000~9,000 years ago, according to glottochronological studies,[2] Proto-Berber might be as recent as 3,000 years ago. Louali & Philippson (2003) propose, on the basis of the lexical reconstruction of livestock-herding, a Proto-Berber 1 (PB1) stage around 7,000 years ago and a Proto-Berber 2 (PB2) stage as the direct ancestor of contemporary Berber languages.[3]

    In the third millennium BC, proto-Berber speakers spread across the area from central North Africa to Egypt. In the last millennium BC, another Berber expansion created the Berber peoples noted in Roman records. The final spread occurred in the first millennium BC, when the Tuareg, now possessing camels, moved into the central Sahara;[4] in the past, the northern parts of the Sahara were much more inhabitable than they are now.[5]

    The fact that there are reconstructions for all major species of domestic ruminant except for the camel in Proto-Berber implies that its speakers produced livestock and were pastoralists.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The Moorish conquests cannot explain the expansion of E-M81 into places like Northern France and Wales. Perhaps Berbers settled there in Roman times (and in other parts of the empire like Iberia and Italy)?

    But what is more surprising than its expansion into Europe is its enormous success in Northwest Africa. Maybe E-M81 was spread by one of the Berber dynasties that rose to prominence after the defeat of Carthage. King Masinissa (c. 240-148), for instance, had forty-four sons, according to wikipedia. His descendants ruled over Numidia and Mauretania. Apparently this was also a time when many Berbers settled as farmers.

    Also, could it be that E-M81 is somehow more fertile than other North African lineages?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Groninger View Post
    The Moorish conquests cannot explain the expansion of E-M81 into places like Northern France and Wales. Perhaps Berbers settled there in Roman times (and in other parts of the empire like Iberia and Italy)?
    But what is more surprising than its expansion into Europe is its enormous success in Northwest Africa. Maybe E-M81 was spread by one of the Berber dynasties that rose to prominence after the defeat of Carthage. King Masinissa (c. 240-148), for instance, had forty-four sons, according to wikipedia. His descendants ruled over Numidia and Mauretania. Apparently this was also a time when many Berbers settled as farmers.
    Also, could it be that E-M81 is somehow more fertile than other North African lineages?
    Interesting, definitely a factor for the success of E-M81, Masinissa is a more reasonable explanation than Maciamo's current Carthaginian theory https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...-DNA.shtml#M81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groninger View Post
    The Moorish conquests cannot explain the expansion of E-M81 into places like Northern France and Wales. Perhaps Berbers settled there in Roman times (and in other parts of the empire like Iberia and Italy)?

    But what is more surprising than its expansion into Europe is its enormous success in Northwest Africa. Maybe E-M81 was spread by one of the Berber dynasties that rose to prominence after the defeat of Carthage. King Masinissa (c. 240-148), for instance, had forty-four sons, according to wikipedia. His descendants ruled over Numidia and Mauretania. Apparently this was also a time when many Berbers settled as farmers.

    Also, could it be that E-M81 is somehow more fertile than other North African lineages?
    I don't know about northern France, but the "E" in Wales has nothing to do with North Africa or E-M81. It's E-V13, whose hot spot in Europe is the Balkans, so yes, it could have gotten there with Roman troops or with miners in prior eras.

    There weren't enough North African troops in the Roman forces to have created all that E-M81 in Iberia even if all of them were settled there.

    @Bicicleur,
    I think you're fighting a rear guard action, Bicicleur. :)

    Unless you've been a more successful researcher than I've been and you've found a map of where the Berbers in Iberia were given land or where the Moriscos were pushed, how can you know whether it correlates well or not?

    This whole issue is difficult to clarify for Iberia because documents about the period are buried, unlike in Sicily. They don't have the abhorrence for the idea that troubles t-rolls like seanp, alias Drac.

    I again recommend the Chiarelli book: A History of Muslim Sicily. The meticulous research leaves absolutely no doubt that the majority of the invading forces were from North Africa.

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    [QUOTE=Angela;525360]"I don't know about northern France, but the "E" in Wales has nothing to do with North Africa or E-M81. It's E-V13, whose hot spot in Europe is the Balkans, so yes, it could have gotten there with Roman troops or with miners in prior eras."

    Eupedia's map shows the presence of some E-M81 in Wales.

    "There weren't enough North African troops in the Roman forces to have created all that E-M81 in Iberia even if all of them were settled there."

    Of course some, or possibly even most, of the E-M81 in Iberia got there in the Islamic era. I'm just saying the Islamic conquests cannot explain the presence of E-M81 in Northern France and Wales.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    As to Berbers getting the poorest lands, our glorious school books told us they liked it the Arabs were so generous and benevolent with everyone, the land itself rejoiced
    E-M81 is the lineage that carried Berber languages, the language family itself is very young according to linguists and must have formed in the Iron Age.
    Did the schoolbooks tell you they also liked repeated requests to send young Berber women to the slave marts of Arabia, and that they liked paying the infidel tax even though they had converted to Islam? :)

    I wonder how they got around all the Berber rebellions in North Africa and Spain as well?

    "According to Islamic law, all Muslims were equal regardless of race or nationality, but the Berbers felt that they were discriminated against, especially after their women were "demanded for the slave markets of the East, while their sheep were killed for Persian lambskins."

    "Resentment over Arab rule grew after 102/720 when the governor of Ifriqiyah, Yazid ibn Abi Mulsim...retained the jizyah (poll tax) on newly converted Berbers. This was an affront to them since the tax was reserved for non-Muslims."

    Above, Chiarelli, pages 4-6.

    I should point out that Chiarelli worked with a lot of Muslim scholars and Italian experts on the Muslim invasions. There's also tons of fresh, primary sources.

    I want to make sure I'm understood here. First, I'm talking only about yDna, and specifically about E-M81.

    The autosomal North African in Iberians doubtless comes from older, probably Neolithic sources as well.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Did the schoolbooks tell you they also liked repeated requests to send young Berber women to the slave marts of Arabia, and that they liked paying the infidel tax even though they had converted to Islam? :)

    I wonder how they got around all the Berber rebellions in North Africa and Spain as well?

    "According to Islamic law, all Muslims were equal regardless of race or nationality, but the Berbers felt that they were discriminated against, especially after their women were "demanded for the slave markets of the East, while their sheep were killed for Persian lambskins."

    "Resentment over Arab rule grew after 102/720 when the governor of Ifriqiyah, Yazid ibn Abi Mulsim...retained the jizyah (poll tax) on newly converted Berbers. This was an affront to them since the tax was reserved for non-Muslims."

    Above, Chiarelli, pages 4-6.

    I should point out that Chiarelli worked with a lot of Muslim scholars and Italian experts on the Muslim invasions. There's also tons of fresh, primary sources.

    I want to make sure I'm understood here. First, I'm talking only about yDna, and specifically about E-M81.

    The autosomal North African in Iberians doubtless comes from older, probably Neolithic sources as well.
    No one mentioned the slaves Angela, its sad, our education made it seem the Arabs were the most intelligent, merciful, noble race ever .... a fault in many History education systems in the world is to glorify one's own without mentioning the wrongdoing they did, no morality.

    I supplemented my glorious historical education with the sources mentioned here: Seeing Islam as Others Saw It and all of a sudden we're not the most noble conquerors in history, just regular ones.

    The Achaemenid Persians were probably the best in their treatment of other conquered nations.

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    ^^Absolutely true: it's a common failing everywhere.

    I've been racking my brains for another possibility for the source of the E-M81 in Iberia.

    Given how young this marker is, the only other possibility, it seems to me, is the Carthaginians. The Phoenicians, given how small a group they were, may have absorbed a lot of native North African men. Still, their settlements are nowhere near Cantabria or even Galicia.



    Fwiw, Masinissa was born near Carthage, and his family was allied with Carthage, and fought for it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masinissa


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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    As to Berbers getting the poorest lands, our glorious school books told us they liked it the Arabs were so generous and benevolent with everyone, the land itself rejoiced

    E-M81 is the lineage that carried Berber languages, the language family itself is very young according to linguists and must have formed in the Iron Age.
    This is just the Berber language group that survived until our present times. Berber is way too divergent from other Afro-Asiatic families and was certainly distant from Semitic or Cushitic languages for at least a feww thousands of years to become so unique. I'd say that modern Berber languages are the Romance languages of the Italic family, or the Arabic "dialects" of their Central Semitic family, that is, the result of a "linguistic bottleneck" with one language superseding all (or almost all) the other related languages.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Proposed origin E-M81 in the Iberian Peninsula, see first map.

    The document also confirms the entry from Ireland to the Iberian Peninsula of R1b, as said by the Catalan professors who investigate Argaric culture.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/i6pk166ddd...61117.pdf?dl=0

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    the part of Galicia is wrong, Lugo was recovered in viii c. santiago was in 800, by the 9th c. almost all gallaecia was under christian rule. theres no arqueological evidence for a strong muslim presence in that area. something fails between dna studies and history records

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    Quote Originally Posted by caldas123 View Post
    the part of Galicia is wrong, Lugo was recovered in viii c. santiago was in 800, by the 9th c. almost all gallaecia was under christian rule. theres no arqueological evidence for a strong muslim presence in that area. something fails between dna studies and history records
    For Galicia it could be two things. The migration from north Africa to Spain before the celts came in. Or the Moriscos went to Galicia and stayed there. I'm just guessing to be honest

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    It can't be before the Celts. E-M81 is only 3000 years old, ie. 1000 BC. The latest the Celts could have arrived is around 1200 BC, I think.

    It's definitely a puzzle.

    Are there precise records of the re-settlements after the Muslim era? I know northerners were sent to Andalucia. Were people from the south relocated to the north?
    Last edited by Angela; 09-12-17 at 22:16.

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