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Thread: why turks have most higher r1a?

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    why turks have most higher r1a?

    i see on a website altai turks have most r1a gens on the world. its meaning they are more slavic than russians? i wanna learn about first turkic tribes more mongoloid or more caucasoid? and they are scythians? or who? if they are scythians why our language family are differerent from them. mongolians assimiliated us? so we are assimiliated scyhtians from mongols or what?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by XipeTotek View Post
    i see on a website altai turks have most r1a gens on the world. its meaning they are more slavic than russians? i wanna learn about first turkic tribes more mongoloid or more caucasoid? and they are scythians? or who? if they are scythians why our language family are differerent from them. mongolians assimiliated us? so we are assimiliated scyhtians from mongols or what?
    Based on genetic admixtures of people from Turkey, the Turks who invaded Anatolia were Mongoloid.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by XipeTotek View Post
    i see on a website altai turks have most r1a gens on the world. its meaning they are more slavic than russians? i wanna learn about first turkic tribes more mongoloid or more caucasoid? and they are scythians? or who? if they are scythians why our language family are differerent from them. mongolians assimiliated us? so we are assimiliated scyhtians from mongols or what?
    I think this is only another evidence of the most probable scenario for the coalescence and expansion of the Turkic tribes: an increasingly expansive and influential confederation of steppe tribes united under the common banner of a lingua franca (Common Turkic) and a few similar cultural traits (a religion based around a supreme Sky God/Tengri, for example).

    A relatively recent paper analyzed the ancient DNA of individuals in some Scythian sites of the Iron Age, and they found out that: western Scythians were most similar to people living now in the North Caucasus and parts of Central Asia; and the present-day Turkic populations of the Eurasian steppe, including its western area, are most similar to the eastern Scythians who lived in north Central Asia. By the way, in the Antiquity those eastern Scythians were still mostly West Eurasian Iranic, but they already had relevant East Asian admixture (maybe relations with the Proto-Turks andd Proto-Mongols were already increasing until the latter became the more powerful of steppe ethnicities?).

    Many things still need to be clarified and analyzed through ancient and modern DNA, but if you asked me I'd bet that the Proto-Turks were typical mongoloid Central Siberians (Altaians, Western Mongolians), but by the time they really became "THE Turks", the powerful and numerous people spreading toward everywhere in Eurasia, they were basically a blend of those Altaians and Mongolians with many, many Scythians, other Iranic peoples (Sogdians, Bactrians etc.) and perhaps even some Finno-Ugric peoples like the Magyars while they still lived in the steppes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XipeTotek View Post
    i see on a website altai turks have most r1a gens on the world. its meaning they are more slavic than russians? i wanna learn about first turkic tribes more mongoloid or more caucasoid? and they are scythians? or who? if they are scythians why our language family are differerent from them. mongolians assimiliated us? so we are assimiliated scyhtians from mongols or what?
    Based on results from groups of Turkmens some have thought that the elite of Oghuz Turks belonged to Q1a1b-M25 (but maybe that's true only about Turkmens).

    In the region where 'Common Turkic' was spoken there could have been many haplogroups. Certainly R1a-Z93 existed there.

    The terms 'mongoloid', 'caucasoid' etc aren't scientific. Certainly they weren't East Asians.

    I have thought that the Mongols had Turkic elites and pushed other Turkic groups to move towards west.

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    'mongoloid', caucasoid' are very useful terms for people which doesn't like split hairs; 'mongoloid' implies a set of phenotypical traits which are statistically very dominant among almost pure East-Asians, and are, when typical of the greater number of a group, the signature of also a dominant east-asian autosomal constitution of this group. At the individual level, it's an other thing.
    I share the point of Ygorcs.

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    I see we have good scientists here again! what a lost of time when we speak about the most of East Asians and their (partly diverse) phenotypes appearing in history IN ACCORD with au DNA changes, as a whole -haplo's Y, mt and autosomes -, for people who don't like split hairs - if phenotypes (typology and means) had been taken in account more seriously and in details with fewer "sniffs" of modern "scientists" we could have seen long time ago the changes during Copper/Bronze transition in Southeastern Europe and Balkans and in Chalco Italy, and in Eastern Iberia too, all that before anDNA, though I find DNA a progress (but not in so a proportion to exclude anything else)!

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    Sorry for my histerical tone! The matter doesn't deserve it. Lack of alcohol, or chamomile?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Based on genetic admixtures of people from Turkey, the Turks who invaded Anatolia were Mongoloid.
    Not sound logical. Turkic people especially, South Central Asia (Turkmenistan-Uzbekestan) started to mix and turned Caucasoid much before.

    Actually, that region is one of the main based of Iranic people, so Turkic invader have already heavily mixed with iranians in there then invaded Anatolia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    Not sound logical. Turkic people especially, South Central Asia (Turkmenistan-Uzbekestan) started to mix and turned Caucasoid much before.

    Actually, that region is one of the main based of Iranic people, so Turkic invader have already heavily mixed with iranians in there then invaded Anatolia
    How do you explain elevated level of Siberian and East Asian admixtures in your DNA and other Turks in general? Silk Road traders? ;)

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Lebrok, I rather share the opinion of Ygorcs on this very matter; It could have been the same process which could explain why Southern Slavs are not so close to Eastern Slavs and even Western Slavs, and explain too why so low level of typical "invaders" auDNA is found sometimes among accultured pops: the latter and ultimate waves of invaders or colonisators were already mixed since some time, kind of progressive change on the road (local wives played a great role here, I think more and more proofs are popping up now).
    And why do you say the east-asian components are so elevated among Anatolian Turks?: it is not what I red until now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Lebrok, I rather share the opinion of Ygorcs on this very matter; It could have been the same process which could explain why Southern Slavs are not so close to Eastern Slavs and even Western Slavs, and explain too why so low level of typical "invaders" auDNA is found sometimes among accultured pops: the latter and ultimate waves of invaders or colonisators were already mixed since some time, kind of progressive change on the road (local wives played a great role here, I think more and more proofs are popping up now).
    And why do you say the east-asian components are so elevated among Anatolian Turks?: it is not what I red until now?
    Good catch, sorry I meant NE Asian. Here are the comparative samples I have. To bad we don't have Anatolian sample from IA or anything before Turk conquest.
    M740087 I2499 Modern M348213 i0247 M084152 PR3_I0575 Moder Moder Moder Moder
    Anatolia, SE BA Turkey scythian EarlySarmatian, Pokrovka, Russia 5th–2nd c. BCE Mongolian Turkmen Uzbek Uyghur
    Run Time 4.58 Run time 11 Run time 6 Run time Run time Run time Run time
    S-Indian - S-Indian 1 S-Indian 1 S-Indian - S-Indian 1 S-Indian 5 S-Indian 5 S-Indian 5
    Baloch 8 Baloch 15 Baloch 25 Baloch 25 Baloch 5 Baloch 26 Baloch 18 Baloch 16
    Caucasian 42 Caucasian 44 Caucasian 8 Caucasian 6 Caucasian 5 Caucasian 30 Caucasian 17 Caucasian 13
    NE-Euro 7 NE-Euro 11 NE-Euro 45 NE-Euro 51 NE-Euro 6 NE-Euro 10 NE-Euro 14 NE-Euro 12
    SE-Asian - SE-Asian 0 SE-Asian 1 SE-Asian 0 SE-Asian - SE-Asian 0 SE-Asian - SE-Asian -
    Siberian - Siberian 4 Siberian 6 Siberian 4 Siberian 38 Siberian 7 Siberian 17 Siberian 15
    NE-Asian - NE-Asian 3 NE-Asian 1 NE-Asian - NE-Asian 39 NE-Asian 8 NE-Asian 20 NE-Asian 30
    Papuan 0 Papuan 0 Papuan - Papuan - Papuan - Papuan - Papuan - Papuan -
    American - American 0 American 3 American 2 American 1 American 1 American 1 American 1
    Beringian - Beringian 1 Beringian 1 Beringian 1 Beringian 2 Beringian 1 Beringian 2 Beringian 2
    Mediterranean 29 Mediterranean 11 Mediterranean 9 Mediterranean 11 Mediterranean 2 Mediterranean 4 Mediterranean 4 Mediterranean 2
    SW-Asian 13 SW-Asian 9 SW-Asian - SW-Asian - SW-Asian - SW-Asian 7 SW-Asian 2 SW-Asian -
    San - San 0 San - San - San - San - San - San -
    E-African - E-African 0 E-African - E-African - E-African - E-African - E-African - E-African -
    Pygmy - Pygmy 0 Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy -
    W-African 0 W-African 0 W-African - W-African - W-African - W-African - W-African - W-African -

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    How do you explain elevated level of Siberian and East Asian admixtures in your DNA and other Turks in general? Silk Road traders? ;)
    You have turned word elevated so I am skipping it

    I didn't say that invaders didn't have Mongoloid admixture. My point is their mongoloid admixture weren't as much as to define them as Mongoloid.

    How full Iranian Sythian, started to show EastAsian admixture later. Western Turk started to show Caucasoid admixture. Early Turk and Arab writers confims it. According to some of them, word Turkmen is coming from Persian word - Turk-manend which means "like-Turk" and they add that Turks start to look like Tajiks (another Iranian Nation)

    About current Siberian & East Asian admixture in Turkey, genetic is multi-unknown equation. So first Turkish invader are just one thing. What are the others?

    *Mongolian Invasion, they came to even East Anatolia
    *Before Mongolian came, in fornt of them East Turkic People had came (Turkic people who were forced by Mongolian, They were more Mongoloid)
    *Tatars and Other Pontic-Steps Turkic people who were forced by Russians to go Anatolia.

    About the last one, we are 12 people in our company but one is originate from Crimea and other one is more blonde then Putin and from Russian Tatarestan. Both of them, say that their all villages are same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XipeTotek View Post
    i see on a website altai turks have most r1a gens on the world. its meaning they are more slavic than russians? i wanna learn about first turkic tribes more mongoloid or more caucasoid? and they are scythians? or who? if they are scythians why our language family are differerent from them. mongolians assimiliated us? so we are assimiliated scyhtians from mongols or what?
    Russians are finnish. So is Putin. It is already established fact.



    First of all Altai is Scythic region which was inhabitated by IE scythian tribes basically from earliest beginnings - it has one of the richest deposits of artifacts from scythians. That is the main source of R1a in those lands.

    Mongols most probably come from region of Khitan, that also includes Dauria and Jurchen - they all are names of mongols. The only mongolic tribe in Europe are kalmyks and they have notable y-dna C even today - just like other mongols.
    Tungusic people live on Amur river area near mongols.
    Turkic seems more like branch or neighbouring languages of mongols. It is hard to tell, but if they are not hybrid offshot of mongols, then most likely they lived west of mongols in area, what is considered eastern Mongolia and most probably were driven to west by mongols from their homeland. Note, that the migrations before mongols happened west and then east, but were driven by IE steppe people.

    Genetically all three have y-dna C. Also related to these three groups are Nivkhs(Sakhalin and Amur estuary are their home place) and Chukotkan-Kamchatkian people. They have no knowledge of horse riding - most probably, that neither of any other y-dna C had, that includes mongols, tungus and turkic people and this knowledge came from IE people.

    Ainu are not related to them(Ainu are y-dna D) - they are related to original Tibetians and some Indian tribes. Ainu were original inhabitants of all of Japan, but not Sakhalin, where they invaded Nivkhs. Korean are basically chinese, who speak different language. Yukagir are N and Yenisean(original inhabitants of Baikal area and Yenisey river and probably Sakha or what was not under ice in ice age) are Q.

    Modern turkic people do not have any genetical ties to their "cousins"(if they are not related, then they are not relatives). The only true turkic people(if we use y-dna C as a base) nowadays are Kazakhs - rest are product of linguistical assimilation of local people, with some unimportant exceptions.

    Horse riding, milk drinking is IE development. Even if people in Europe do not mix blood and milk as a drink, it does not mean, that their ancestors didn't do it.This is nothing special for neighbours to adapt and become masters of these things. For example, chinese did not developed metalurgy on their own, but it was most probably, that Miao Miao ancestors did so, even if they are driven out from their lands now.


    Modern Turks in Turkey has nothing to do with Turkic tribes, as they all are mostly assimilated Canaaniites, prehelenic semithic greeks and hellenic and R1b invaders, that created Mittani and later - Armenia(which was created as a mix of Hurrians and IE - hence Ar in Armenian and in ancient name of nakh people - Ers, that is still present in name of Erevan). Most ancient Hattic inhabitants of Anatolia were more related linguistically to Circassians and genetically also to Georgians, as are Circassians. I guess it is very political question in Turkey, where differences between Turks, Kurds and Armenians does not exist, except in language.
    Last edited by qtr; 13-03-18 at 20:00.

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    Quote Originally Posted by qtr View Post
    Russians are finnish. So is Putin. It is already established fac
    First of all Altai is Scythic region which was inhabitated by IE scythian tribes basically from earliest beginnings - it has one of the richest deposits of artifacts from scythians. That is the main source of R1a in those lands.
    Mongols most probably come from region of Khitan, that also includes Dauria and Jurchen - they all are names of mongols. The only mongolic tribe in Europe are kalmyks and they have notable y-dna C even today - just like other mongols.
    Tungusic people live on Amur river area near mongols.
    Turkic seems more like branch or neighbouring languages of mongols. It is hard to tell, but if they are not hybrid offshot of mongols, then most likely they lived west of mongols in area, what is considered eastern Mongolia and most probably were driven to west by mongols from their homeland. Note, that the migrations before mongols happened west and then east, but were driven by IE steppe people.
    Genetically all three have y-dna C. Also related to these three groups are Nivkhs(Sakhalin and Amur estuary are their home place) and Chukotkan-Kamchatkian people. They have no knowledge of horse riding - most probably, that neither of any other y-dna C had, that includes mongols, tungus and turkic people and this knowledge came from IE people.
    Ainu are not related to them(Ainu are y-dna D) - they are related to original Tibetians and some Indian tribes. Ainu were original inhabitants of all of Japan, but not Sakhalin, where they invaded Nivkhs. Korean are basically chinese, who speak different language. Yukagir are N and Yenisean(original inhabitants of Baikal area and Yenisey river and probably Sakha or what was not under ice in ice age) are Q.
    Modern turkic people do not have any genetical ties to their "cousins"(if they are not related, then they are not relatives). The only true turkic people(if we use y-dna C as a base) nowadays are Kazakhs - rest are product of linguistical assimilation of local people, with some unimportant exceptions.
    Horse riding, milk drinking is IE development. Even if people in Europe do not mix blood and milk as a drink, it does not mean, that their ancestors didn't do it.This is nothing special for neighbours to adapt and become masters of these things. For example, chinese did not developed metalurgy on their own, but it was most probably, that Miao Miao ancestors did so, even if they are driven out from their lands now.
    Modern Turks in Turkey has nothing to do with Turkic tribes, as they all are mostly assimilated Canaaniites, prehelenic semithic greeks and hellenic and R1b invaders, that created Mittani and later - Armenia(which was created as a mix of Hurrians and IE - hence Ar in Armenian and in ancient name of nakh people - Ers, that is still present in name of Erevan). Most ancient Hattic inhabitants of Anatolia were more related linguistically to Circassians and genetically also to Georgians, as are Circassians. I guess it is very political question in Turkey, where differences between Turks, Kurds and Armenians does not exist, except in language.
    i dont agree so much. i am half albanian and half turk but i have and my family have a slanted eyes. i see so much slanted eyes people in turkey. turkic peoples always mixed hybrid nation. and i know my ancestos come from all of our history. scythians,hunnic,gokturk,ottoman. turks are always most mixed nation on the world. so this is reason why we are powerful and change the history :)

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    You should look at R1a subclade also. Idians for instance have high rates of R1a incidence but that does not mean they are Russians. It means that 10-15000 years ago when everyone was dark, they had the same male ancestor, later everyone diverged.so the subclade will tell you what are really R1a people of Turkey

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    Quote Originally Posted by qtr View Post
    Russians are finnish. So is Putin. It is already established fact.
    If they are Finnish, how they speak Slavic language? From the sky it came to them?

    Oh, pls, don't say me that before Old Church Slavonic they spoke some another language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XipeTotek View Post
    i see on a website altai turks have most r1a gens on the world. its meaning they are more slavic than russians? i wanna learn about first turkic tribes more mongoloid or more caucasoid? and they are scythians? or who? if they are scythians why our language family are differerent from them. mongolians assimiliated us? so we are assimiliated scyhtians from mongols or what?
    Look at subclades. R1a-Z280 is Balto-Slavic, R1a-M458 proto-Slavic, Turkic and Mongolic R1a are different branches (except Nogai, where's foundable R1a-M458), but everything have some mysteries, same for Nogai M458.

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    Quote Originally Posted by qtr View Post
    The only true turkic people(if we use y-dna C as a base) nowadays are Kazakhs - rest are product of linguistical assimilation of local people, with some unimportant exceptions.
    Oh my God, oh my God...

    Did you read somewhere that Golden Horde were Turkified Mongols? And the modern Kazakhs are mainly descedants of Golden Horde. So how they could be "the only true turkic people" ?

    Btw. in my opinion Turks of N1b are proto-Turks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RajvoSa View Post
    Oh my God, oh my God...

    Did you read somewhere that Golden Horde were Turkified Mongols? And the modern Kazakhs are mainly descedants of Golden Horde. So how they could be "the only true turkic people" ?


    Btw. in my opinion Turks of N1b are proto-Turks.
    proto turks come from native american hablogroup q. n hablogroup is uralic peoples

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    Quote Originally Posted by XipeTotek View Post
    proto turks come from native american hablogroup q. n hablogroup is uralic peoples
    However stays the fact that C turks are Turkicized Mongols.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by XipeTotek View Post
    proto turks come from native american hablogroup q. n hablogroup is uralic peoples
    Please share your source.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RajvoSa View Post
    However stays the fact that C turks are Turkicized Mongols.
    C hablogroups are mongol they are early asian group with tibet D hablogroups.

    chinese, japanese, korean, and turks also native americans later mixed with them.

    turks and native americans mixed with mongol peoples since 15.000 - 20.000 years.

    if we say japanese and tibets are cousins, turks/native american/mongols have good relationships many years and they are cousins.

    but dont come from same ancestors, but yes they are different peoples like a vikings and other tribes in europe

    so turks main group are q hablogroup. but today we have so little q. max %10

    our max hablogroup r1a (east iranian, slav)

    we assimilated so many group our inside.(like a scythians.) central asia have many tribes

    and turkey peoples are more greeks than turkic. you can see easy

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    Quote Originally Posted by RajvoSa View Post
    However stays the fact that C turks are Turkicized Mongols.
    yes kazakh peoples have many mongol hablogroup. but genghis khan create their army %70 turks and other tribes.

    this is why kazakh peoples and other asimiliated and turkicized by turks.

    and that peoples living many many years together. like a 15.000 - 20.000 years. i dont think they know who is real mongolian or turkic.

    also you cant see turkic hablogroup q on central asia. really so low. how we can say who is real turk or not.

    native americans more turk than central asians for me.

    because they come from same ancestors with turks and they save genetic and cultural things (shame on to american invaders.)

    later they mixed so many tribes in central asia. c, r1a, r1b, o, they are most mixed nations on the earth.

    i think turks mean not a hablogroups. caucasoid/mongoloid mixed = turks

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    People, can you please learn to stop talking about modern people's origins as if they were entirely defined by their Y-DNA haplogroup (does only males or, even worse, males' Y chromosome define your ancestry in your mind?) and, even less correctly, basing your views on basal forms of Y-DNA haplogroups (N, Q, C) that have first appeared dozens of thousands of years ago as if these modern-day language families and ethnicities had lived in total isolation from each other and hadn't even changed much (through internal evolution and drift itself) in 20k, 30k or even 40k years?

    You won't ever reach any right conclusion by looking only at Y-DNA with a very ancient TMRCA, and simply ignoring the specific subclades and the fact that these ethnic groups (like Proto-Turks) that existed 2000-2500 years ago couldn't belong to just one of the Y-DNA haplogroups and population structures that existed 20,000-50,000 years ago, in virtually unmixed form. This is not just nonsense, but potentially even a dangerous idea of long-term "purity". The linguistic, genetic and cultural divergence and evolution is just too much along so many milennia to establish direct correlations.
    Last edited by Ygorcs; 21-05-18 at 00:17.

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