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Thread: K12 (Ancient): Jarawa-component in a NW European a Paleolithic marker!?

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    K12 (Ancient): Jarawa-component in a NW European a Paleolithic marker!?

    In my mothers K12 Ancient (Geneplaza) there is a remarkable component, the "Jarawan component" in her genes is 1,5% besides that there is a very small East African component 0,2%.

    See:


    At first hand I took no notion, I thought something like "statistic noise".

    But at second hand I became curios.

    Especially when I saw an article in the Guardian, quote:
    "Stone Age tribes living on the Andaman islands at the eastern edge of the Bay of Bengal migrated from Africa far earlier than previously thought, according to a study which says they may have been living in isolation from the rest of the world for more than 60,000 years."
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ion.humanities

    Than I began to see a potential Stone Age/ Paleolithic link, because the autosomal region of my mother called Drenthe is thé part of the Northern Netherlands with absolutely the oldest population. Since Stone Age/Paleolithic times there were people in that region!

    Some archeological articles about that:
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...40618215006345
    https://pia-journal.co.uk/articles/10.5334/pia.304/

    My hypothesis is: the "Jarawa component" in a NW European is a paleolithic marker.

    But on the other hand I stay sceptical. Isn't it after all "statistical noise"? And is such a paleolithic residu possible in a modern European?
    And so fort.....

    Like to know your view about this: fact or fiction, too far fetched or a real possibility ?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    In my mothers K12 Ancient (Geneplaza) there is a remarkable component, the "Jarawan component" in her genes is 1,5% besides that there is a very small East African component 0,2%.

    See:


    At first hand I took no notion, I thought something like "statistic noise".

    But at second hand I became curios.

    Especially when I saw an article in the Guardian, quote:
    "Stone Age tribes living on the Andaman islands at the eastern edge of the Bay of Bengal migrated from Africa far earlier than previously thought, according to a study which says they may have been living in isolation from the rest of the world for more than 60,000 years."
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ion.humanities

    Than I began to see a potential Stone Age/ Paleolithic link, because the autosomal region of my mother called Drenthe is thé part of the Northern Netherlands with absolutely the oldest population. Since Stone Age/Paleolithic times there were people in that region!

    Some archeological articles about that:
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...40618215006345
    https://pia-journal.co.uk/articles/10.5334/pia.304/

    My hypothesis is: the "Jarawa component" in a NW European is a paleolithic marker.

    But on the other hand I stay sceptical. Isn't it after all "statistical noise"? And is such a paleolithic residu possible in a modern European?
    And so fort.....

    Like to know your view about this: fact or fiction, too far fetched or a real possibility ?
    I'm not sure. 1.5% seems a little high to just be "noise".

    It may be that very isolated communities of people retain small chunks of ancient ancestry because they keep passing it back and forth amongst themselves, and it may be located on a part of the chromosome that doesn't recombine all that much.

    That's how I explain the small bit of East Asian/Korean that I consistently get on calculators, even ones based on modern populations, much less something like this based on ancient samples. On this particular calculator I get a much larger than expected percentage of Scythian. I think the two things may be related.

    The only other possibility may be some unknown ancestor who picked up a bit of South Asian. Any ancestors that you know of who may have gone to India?

    I'm thinking of something similar to the case of Princess Diana, and therefore Prince William. They carry a South Asian mtDna apparently, because in the Princess' line, a wife who was supposedly Armenian turns out actually to have been at least partly Indian. One of her ancestors, back in the early 1700s went to India with the East India Company and married there.

    If you don't have any globe trotting ancestors, then maybe the first explanation is the better one.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'm not sure. 1.5% seems a little high to just be "noise".

    It may be that very isolated communities of people retain small chunks of ancient ancestry because they keep passing it back and forth amongst themselves, and it may be located on a part of the chromosome that doesn't recombine all that much.

    That's how I explain the small bit of East Asian/Korean that I consistently get on calculators, even ones based on modern populations, much less something like this based on ancient samples. On this particular calculator I get a much larger than expected percentage of Scythian. I think the two things may be related.

    The only other possibility may be some unknown ancestor who picked up a bit of South Asian. Any ancestors that you know of who may have gone to India?

    I'm thinking of something similar to the case of Princess Diana, and therefore Prince William. They carry a South Asian mtDna apparently, because in the Princess' line, a wife who was supposedly Armenian turns out actually to have been at least partly Indian. One of her ancestors, back in the early 1700s went to India with the East India Company and married there.

    If you don't have any globe trotting ancestors, then maybe the first explanation is the better one.
    Thanks Angela that option went also trough my mind. Of course the Dutch have a big colonial heritage. But the influence from Indonesians on Dutch population is from the fifties of the twentieth century. But in the case of my mothers ancestors they were very rural dwellers in one of the most rural parts of the Netherlands (=Drenthe), little farmers and agricultural workers. No cosmopolitan types were found...

    From that perspective it's more reasonable to presume a link with the stone age. As a newspaper stated two years ago:
    ,, But all these findings together show that Drenthe has been a favorite area of Neanderthals for a very long time, where they have developed various activities. ''

    Besides that seen from the Jarawan perspective the people from the Andaman island lived (until recent) de facto isolated. So that makes the chance of a 'recent' (past few hundred years) intermingling probably zero.....(these tribes are after the isolation was broken sadly enough in deep trouble.....)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andamanese
    Last edited by Northener; 23-12-17 at 23:30.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    well, 40 ka Tianyuan genome was related with Goyet 35 ka
    but what you come up is very strange
    your mother must have split from Jarawa >50 ka
    haplo D was in Sundaland when Neanderthals were still living in Drenthe
    it can't be a European paleolithic marker

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    well, 40 ka Tianyuan genome was related with Goyet 35 ka
    but what you come up is very strange
    your mother must have split from Jarawa >50 ka
    haplo D was in Sundaland when Neanderthals were still living in Drenthe
    it can't be a European paleolithic marker
    Hold on a minute.
    A recent intermingling seems pretty unlikely. So what else?

    On the Andaman population (Guardian article above)

    Dr Hagelberg found that clusters of DNA fragments from the hair were similar to those in African populations, especially southern pygmies. Proponents of the Out of Africa theory believe the first humans left Africa 100,000 years ago, reaching Asia 60,000 years ago. Later settlers wiped out most tribes. But a few, marooned in isolated pockets such as the Andamans, survived.
    In the Drenthe case we have clear signs of these inhibitants:
    The site is one of the northernmost Middle Palaeolithic occurrences in the Netherlands – in Europe as well – and obviously postdates the Saalian glaciation (MIS 6). ‘Assen’ most likely dates to MIS 3 or MIS 5a/5c of the Weichselian. The presence of many relatively small (sub)cordiform and (sub)triangular handaxes indicates a cultural affiliation with the Mousterian of Acheulian Tradition, Type A. The site is situated near the northern limit of the occupation range of Middle Palaeolithic hominins, and the lithic assemblage is comparable to that from several other sites in the northern part of the North European Plain.
    from:
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...40618215006345

    #Mousterian
    https://www.britannica.com/topic/Mousterian-industry
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mousterian
    The European Mousterian is the product of Neanderthals. It existed roughly from 160,000 BP to 40,000 BP
    After the Mousterian period other HG-tribes went to Drenthe.

    Aren't these Neanderthals, or the "grimaldi-like" people from about 40.000 BC, an offshoot of an African population (just like the ancestors of the Andamans)?

    Or is the K12 model in this respect wrong?
    Last edited by Northener; 24-12-17 at 00:05.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I could've sworn I've read something about certain European hunter gatherers having something African or Australian like in their genes

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    well, 40 ka Tianyuan genome was related with Goyet 35 ka
    but what you come up is very strange
    your mother must have split from Jarawa >50 ka
    haplo D was in Sundaland when Neanderthals were still living in Drenthe
    it can't be a European paleolithic marker
    in addition, I see that haplo D is dominant among the Andaman tribes, thats pointing at a Southeast Asian heritage.
    But that's probably not the whole story.

    What is most probably the case is that from the origin in Africa some went to Europe and partly to Asia. In Asia they partly mixed with the 'Asians'. but they are not on the whole 'Asian', they kept (due to isolation) partly the 'African' traits.

    see:
    https://muse.jhu.edu/article/530629

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    I could've sworn I've read something about certain European hunter gatherers having something African or Australian like in their genes
    Maciamo found the same kind of residu in older samples....
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...inavian-people



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    I found this the on the net http://realhistoryww.com/world_histo...t/Grimaldi.htm the undertone is not mines but the Khoisan-Andaman-Grimaldi link is striking regarding the ‘Andaman’ component in my mother’s auDNA!


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    Mmmm I had a reaction of the developer of K12, in the end it’s statistical noise, would have been nice, first kind of ‘modern people’ out of Africa that went 40000 BC to Europe and Asia.....but no pasaran!


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    I also score 3.2% Southeast Eurasian on Geneplaza Ancient K12

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    You are from the Netherlands? It's possible that you have an Asian ancestor from the colonial period. I have real East Asian and Indian DNA from a 2nd great grandmother. Her family were colonists in India. Do you have any ancestors who were from the colonies?

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    Quote Originally Posted by clarbg View Post
    You are from the Netherlands? It's possible that you have an Asian ancestor from the colonial period. I have real East Asian and Indian DNA from a 2nd great grandmother. Her family were colonists in India. Do you have any ancestors who were from the colonies?
    Thanks for your reply! Generally the Indonesian population came to the Netherlands after WW2. No connection. And I have no family with a colonial past....all rural North Dutch.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    Mmmm I had a reaction of the developer of K12, in the end it’s statistical noise, would have been nice, first kind of ‘modern people’ out of Africa that went 40000 BC to Europe and Asia.....but no pasaran!
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    I’m Northwestern European and I received 1.4% Southeast Eurasian on that calculator too. I also received 2% South Asian on Gencove. My dad received 2% South Asian on Myheritage. I also receive small amounts of South Asian on various Gedmatch calculators.
    I just ran my parents scores and my French Canadian Mom received 0% Southeast Eurasian and my Belgian Dad received 5.2% Southeast Eurasian. Wow! Maybe there is some type of Belgian/Dutch connection.

    I don’t see a date or age for this region similar to the other clusters. I know it’s suposed to be an ancient calculator; however, if he is using modern samples for the Southeast Eurasian category that might explain the connection.
    Last edited by mwauthy; 16-02-18 at 17:26. Reason: Addition

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