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Thread: Ydna merovingians e Charlemagne

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    Ydna merovingians e Charlemagne

    hi all, I ask for information about Ydna of the Merovingians and in particular of the line of Charlemagne, by chance we know that haplogroup are? were tests done? thank you very much

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    Quote Originally Posted by taiabafa View Post
    hi all, I ask for information about Ydna of the Merovingians and in particular of the line of Charlemagne, by chance we know that haplogroup are? were tests done? thank you very much
    Not to my knowledge.


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    If I recall well there is 1 Merovingian G2a2 Y-DNA known.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    If I recall well there is 1 Merovingian G2a2 Y-DNA known.

    You're right. I had totally forgotten.

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    thanks for the answer, has the DNA test never been done on the remains that are said to belong to Carlo Magno in Aachen?

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    Quote Originally Posted by taiabafa View Post
    thanks for the answer, has the DNA test never been done on the remains that are said to belong to Carlo Magno in Aachen?
    no, I think the DNA came form near Tournai in Belgium, which was the Merovingian capital in the early days

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    If the Irish Burkes are descended from Charlemagne like they claim, we do know the haplogroup. It is a rare SNP underneath R1b-DF27 called "S19290" that is almost exclusively west-central European, rather than Irish or Iberian.

    To the point about Merovingians, I guess you meant the Plantagenet line that goes back to the Count of Anjou? I don't see a reason to doubt G2-P303.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    If I recall well there is 1 Merovingian G2a2 Y-DNA known.
    I think that this was just an individual from the Merovingian period, but not a member of the Merovingian dynasty AFAIK.
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    The Burke claim is very shaky. They descend from William de Burgh who came to Ireland in 1185.
    it is possible that he is indeed the grandson of Guillaume de Mortain (de Burgo), but I wouldn't know the source.
    But then, this Normandy family De Mortain descends from Herluin de Conteville, William de Conquerer's stepfather.
    There are no records for his parentage.
    They claim descendence from Charlemagnes eldest son Charles of Ingelheim, but he has no known children nor illegimate children.

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    The Merovingian period skeletons weren't G2a2, but only G2a and, probably, G2a3 from STR.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brennos View Post
    The Merovingian period skeletons weren't G2a2, but only G2a and, probably, G2a3 from STR.
    so, and what is G2a3 then?
    today that doesn't exist

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    When they discovered Childeric’s tomb in Tournai in the 17th century did they rebury his remains? I know most of his tomb treasure was stolen and lost to time but it would be interesting if the whereabouts of his remains were still known.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mwauthy View Post
    When they discovered Childeric’s tomb in Tournai in the 17th century did they rebury his remains? I know most of his tomb treasure was stolen and lost to time but it would be interesting if the whereabouts of his remains were still known.
    Hej,
    No idea, but I'd say they didn't care about the bones back then, so my guess would be that they are lost forever (and that's a shame).
    I think they stopped studying the merovingian tombs in St Denis. But there are few men there, mostly women around Arégonde (who's U5a1).

    Sadly, nobody knows where are buried most french merovingian and carolingian kings, just clues, no remains.

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    There was some Y-analysis of this burial site:
    https://j2-m172.info/2015/04/three-j...tional-period/

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    For those who haven't yet seen it this find was discussed here:

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ht=Merovingian

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    it could be that Merovingians and Carolingians do not have the same Ydna, the Franks are a clan of eastern Germany near the Baltic, in front of Denmark and then they went down to Belgium and France but they are a high Germanic people, so it seems strange to me that YJ2 is Middle East.
    the Franks are a people of northern Europe and maybe they are not of the same line as the Merovingians ...

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    I bet he was J2a.

    Frankish and Roman nobility claimed to be descendants of the Trojans who were apparently also related to the Leleges, Carians, Cilicians, and Phoenicians and also all have some connection to ancient Crete.

    In Medieval times the Trojan princes were considered to be legitimate, rightful rulers, and noblemen sought to connect themselves to the houses of those princes in order to legitimize their own positions. So in the reign of the Merovingian kings: “Frankish pride in their own achievement bore fruit in Dagobert’s reign in the emergence of the tradition that the Franks were descended from the Trojan royal family, and were thus equal to the Romans” (The Oxford History Of Medieval Europe, pp. 88-89). Yet while Roman claims had the full support of history, such Frankish claims do not. More credible are the claims concerning the kings of the Britons, and Virgil relates that they too were a colony from the Trojans of Italy, though the Greek historians do not state as much. Diodorus Siculus does tell us of the British that “they use chariots ... even as tradition tells us the old Greek heroes did in the Trojan War” (5.21.5), and Strabo says “for the purposes of war they use chariots for the most part, just as some of the Celti do” (4.5.2). This was learned when Caesar invaded Britain, which both Diodorus and Strabo are referring to.

    Strabo says of the Trojans that they “waxed so strong from a small beginning that they became Kings of Kings” (12.8.7), and describes the Trojan royal dynasties which ruled over all the related peoples, including the Carians, Lycians, Mysians, Leleges and Cilicians (13.1.7). Even in the defeat of Troy, the Trojans were considered a noble race and Trojan princes true royalty.

    In his History of the Peloponnesian War Thucydides, writing of the earliest times, states that by the Carians and the Phoenicians “were the greatest part of the islands inhabited” (1.8). Herodotus says that the Carians were originally called Leleges and dwelt in the islands, from which they were later driven by Ionians and Dorians to settle on the mainland (1.171), although varying accounts are also supplied by the historian. At 1.171 Herodotus also states that the Carians are related to the Lydians. While Strabo says that the Lycians are Dardans (10.2.10),Herodotus says that they too came from Crete, a colony led by Sarpedon the brother of Minos (1.173), but claims that they were named after an Athenian (7.92). Yet Strabo gives a differing account of Sarpedon, related below.

    While Strabo connects the Cilicians to both the Trojans (13.1.49, 58; 13.3.1) and to Syria(13.4.6), and also to cities in Pamphylia (14.4.1) whom he calls “Trojan Cilicians”, Herodotus states of the Cilicians that they “bore anciently the name of Hypachaeans, but took their present title from Cilix, the son of Agenor, a Phoenician” (7. 91). Rawlinson adds a footnote here: “The Cilicians were undoubtedly a kindred race to the Phoenicians”. It must be noted that Homer called the Danaans “Achaeans”, and here we see the Cilicians called “Hypachaeans” in early times. Cadmus “the Phoenician”, legendary founder of the Thebes in Greece, was also called a son of Agenor, and was said to be the brother-in-law of Dardanos (Diodorus Siculus, 5.48.5).

    Strabo states that “the Leleges and the Cilicians were so closely related to the Trojans” (13.3.1), and that the Cilicians were settled in the Troad before they colonized Cilicia (13.4.6), and that Homer puts Cilicians in the Troad along with the Dardans (14.5. 21). Of the Pamphylians, whom we have seen are related to the Trojans, Strabo states “But the Pamphylians, who share much in the traits of the Cilician stock of people, do not wholly abstain from the business of piracy”(12.7.2), for which the Phoenicians in early times were also renowned. The Carians dwelt in and around Miletus, of which Strabo says: “Not only the Carians, who in earlier times were islanders, but also the Leleges, as they say, became mainlanders with the aid of the Cretans, who founded, among other places, Miletus, having taken Sarpedon from the Cretan Miletus as founder; and they settled the Termilae in the country which is now called Lycia; and they say that these settlers were brought to Crete by Sarpedon, a brother of Minos ...” Herodotus called the “Greek” philosopher Thales of Miletus “a man ... of Phoenician descent”(1.170). Strabo debates the identification of the Leleges with the Carians, but explains that they inhabited the same territory together, and also that Leleges inhabited a part of the Troad, from which they were driven after Troy’s fall (7.7.2). Carians, including men of Miletus, and Lycians are mentioned by Homer among Troy’s defenders (Iliad, Book 2).

    The Minoans themselves were said to have spread west to Sicily (Diodorus Siculus 4.79.1-7, Strabo 6.3.2), and Cretans founded Bottiaïs in Macedon (Diodorus 7.16.1, Strabo 7.11) and Brentesium in Italy (Strabo 6.3.6), among other places. Strabo says that “In earlier times Knossos was called Caeratus, bearing the same name as the river which flows past it.” Caer, or Car, is from a Hebrew word meaning “city”(i.e. “Carthage” is from the Hebrew for “new city”). Another river on Crete, the Iardanos, has a name much like the river of Palestine, the LXX spelling for which is Iordanos.

    So in the earliest accounts we find, while those accounts contain some variations, that the Trojans, Leleges, Carians, Cilicians, and Phoenicians are all related, and also all have some connection to ancient Crete, a land famous for its bull-worship cult (cf. Exodus 32; 1 Kings 12:28; 2 Kings 10:29;17:16; Apollodorus, Library,3.2.1). Much later, during the Trojan Wars, Homer places the Dorians on Crete (Odyssey, Book 19), some time before they invaded Greece. Crete is where a great number of Linear B inscriptions have been found, which represents an early Greek dialect, and which is related to an early Cyprian dialect, for which see the Preface to the Revised Supplement(1996) of the 9th edition of the Liddell & Scott Greek-English Lexicon. It is quite apparent that Crete, and also to some degree Cyprus which was once subject to the Phoenicians of Tyre (cf. Josephus, Antiquities 9.14.2 and Ezek. 27:6), were stopping points, or staging areas, where in early times the tribes of Palestine settled before moving on into Anatolia, Greece, and points further west.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leperrine View Post
    I bet he was J2a.

    Frankish and Roman nobility claimed to be descendants of the Trojans who were apparently also related to the Leleges, Carians, Cilicians, and Phoenicians and also all have some connection to ancient Crete.

    In Medieval times the Trojan princes were considered to be legitimate, rightful rulers, and noblemen sought to connect themselves to the houses of those princes in order to legitimize their own positions. So in the reign of the Merovingian kings: “Frankish pride in their own achievement bore fruit in Dagobert’s reign in the emergence of the tradition that the Franks were descended from the Trojan royal family, and were thus equal to the Romans” (The Oxford History Of Medieval Europe, pp. 88-89). Yet while Roman claims had the full support of history, such Frankish claims do not. More credible are the claims concerning the kings of the Britons, and Virgil relates that they too were a colony from the Trojans of Italy, though the Greek historians do not state as much. Diodorus Siculus does tell us of the British that “they use chariots ... even as tradition tells us the old Greek heroes did in the Trojan War” (5.21.5), and Strabo says “for the purposes of war they use chariots for the most part, just as some of the Celti do” (4.5.2). This was learned when Caesar invaded Britain, which both Diodorus and Strabo are referring to.

    Strabo says of the Trojans that they “waxed so strong from a small beginning that they became Kings of Kings” (12.8.7), and describes the Trojan royal dynasties which ruled over all the related peoples, including the Carians, Lycians, Mysians, Leleges and Cilicians (13.1.7). Even in the defeat of Troy, the Trojans were considered a noble race and Trojan princes true royalty.

    In his History of the Peloponnesian War Thucydides, writing of the earliest times, states that by the Carians and the Phoenicians “were the greatest part of the islands inhabited” (1.8). Herodotus says that the Carians were originally called Leleges and dwelt in the islands, from which they were later driven by Ionians and Dorians to settle on the mainland (1.171), although varying accounts are also supplied by the historian. At 1.171 Herodotus also states that the Carians are related to the Lydians. While Strabo says that the Lycians are Dardans (10.2.10),Herodotus says that they too came from Crete, a colony led by Sarpedon the brother of Minos (1.173), but claims that they were named after an Athenian (7.92). Yet Strabo gives a differing account of Sarpedon, related below.

    While Strabo connects the Cilicians to both the Trojans (13.1.49, 58; 13.3.1) and to Syria(13.4.6), and also to cities in Pamphylia (14.4.1) whom he calls “Trojan Cilicians”, Herodotus states of the Cilicians that they “bore anciently the name of Hypachaeans, but took their present title from Cilix, the son of Agenor, a Phoenician” (7. 91). Rawlinson adds a footnote here: “The Cilicians were undoubtedly a kindred race to the Phoenicians”. It must be noted that Homer called the Danaans “Achaeans”, and here we see the Cilicians called “Hypachaeans” in early times. Cadmus “the Phoenician”, legendary founder of the Thebes in Greece, was also called a son of Agenor, and was said to be the brother-in-law of Dardanos (Diodorus Siculus, 5.48.5).

    Strabo states that “the Leleges and the Cilicians were so closely related to the Trojans” (13.3.1), and that the Cilicians were settled in the Troad before they colonized Cilicia (13.4.6), and that Homer puts Cilicians in the Troad along with the Dardans (14.5. 21). Of the Pamphylians, whom we have seen are related to the Trojans, Strabo states “But the Pamphylians, who share much in the traits of the Cilician stock of people, do not wholly abstain from the business of piracy”(12.7.2), for which the Phoenicians in early times were also renowned. The Carians dwelt in and around Miletus, of which Strabo says: “Not only the Carians, who in earlier times were islanders, but also the Leleges, as they say, became mainlanders with the aid of the Cretans, who founded, among other places, Miletus, having taken Sarpedon from the Cretan Miletus as founder; and they settled the Termilae in the country which is now called Lycia; and they say that these settlers were brought to Crete by Sarpedon, a brother of Minos ...” Herodotus called the “Greek” philosopher Thales of Miletus “a man ... of Phoenician descent”(1.170). Strabo debates the identification of the Leleges with the Carians, but explains that they inhabited the same territory together, and also that Leleges inhabited a part of the Troad, from which they were driven after Troy’s fall (7.7.2). Carians, including men of Miletus, and Lycians are mentioned by Homer among Troy’s defenders (Iliad, Book 2).

    The Minoans themselves were said to have spread west to Sicily (Diodorus Siculus 4.79.1-7, Strabo 6.3.2), and Cretans founded Bottiaïs in Macedon (Diodorus 7.16.1, Strabo 7.11) and Brentesium in Italy (Strabo 6.3.6), among other places. Strabo says that “In earlier times Knossos was called Caeratus, bearing the same name as the river which flows past it.” Caer, or Car, is from a Hebrew word meaning “city”(i.e. “Carthage” is from the Hebrew for “new city”). Another river on Crete, the Iardanos, has a name much like the river of Palestine, the LXX spelling for which is Iordanos.

    So in the earliest accounts we find, while those accounts contain some variations, that the Trojans, Leleges, Carians, Cilicians, and Phoenicians are all related, and also all have some connection to ancient Crete, a land famous for its bull-worship cult (cf. Exodus 32; 1 Kings 12:28; 2 Kings 10:29;17:16; Apollodorus, Library,3.2.1). Much later, during the Trojan Wars, Homer places the Dorians on Crete (Odyssey, Book 19), some time before they invaded Greece. Crete is where a great number of Linear B inscriptions have been found, which represents an early Greek dialect, and which is related to an early Cyprian dialect, for which see the Preface to the Revised Supplement(1996) of the 9th edition of the Liddell & Scott Greek-English Lexicon. It is quite apparent that Crete, and also to some degree Cyprus which was once subject to the Phoenicians of Tyre (cf. Josephus, Antiquities 9.14.2 and Ezek. 27:6), were stopping points, or staging areas, where in early times the tribes of Palestine settled before moving on into Anatolia, Greece, and points further west.
    I think you might want to review the Lazaridis paper on the Mycenaeans and Minoans. The people of Crete were Anatolian type farmers who were then affected mainly by ancestry ultimately stemming from the other centrum of farming in the Near East: eastern Anatolia, the Zagros, Iran. Very little of the genetic change is attributed to the people of the Levant.

    The following is about mtDna:
    http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-22527821

    The following link is to our discussion of the Lazaridis paper:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...and-Mycenaeans

    Directly from the paper:
    "have assembled genome-wide data from 19 ancient individuals, including Minoans from Crete, Mycenaeans from mainland Greece, and their eastern neighbours from southwestern Anatolia. Here we show that Minoans and Mycenaeans were genetically similar, having at least three-quarters of their ancestry from the first Neolithic farmers of western Anatolia and the Aegean1, 2, and most of the remainder from ancient populations related to those of the Caucasus3 and Iran4, 5."

    ""Minoans from Moni OdigitriaMinoans from Moni Odigitria in the Heraklion regional unit (south-central Crete) do not form a cladewith any single (N=1) population of the All set. The best single population is Neolithic Anatolians, forwhich rank=0 can be rejected with p=9.13e-05, with all others being rejected much more strongly(p<1e-16). We can model Minoans from Moni Odigitria as a 2-way mixture of Anatolian Neolithicand Caucasus hunter-gatherers or Neolithic Iran (Table S2.4), with most ancestry (~86%) derivedfrom a Neolithic Anatolian-related population.""

    You really should read the whole paper.

    I totally agree that royal families were in the business of trying to bolster their own claim to power by associating themselves with cultures from the past who were considered heroic. Some of the Romans carried it to extremes: the Julii claimed descent from Venus.

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    Thanks Angela. I'll give it a read.

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    Most of the Merovingian remains in the Saint-Denis Basilica were destroyed during the French revolution. Some remains from descendants of Childeric should however possible exists. Relics from Clodoald, a grandson of Clovis, and the skull of Guntram, another grandson, are kept in French churches according to wikipedia.

  21. #21
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    Hej, It's still possible to find Clovis, there are clues whereabout he was burried, but the church under which he was supposed to rest was modified, destroyed... and noone knows for sure what was built or rebuilt in ancient times so the tomb could be under some building or even under the road. The tomb effigies were all rebuilt and put on display in St Denis but for a lot of Merovingian and Carolingian kings were not in St Denis, it could be that the tombs themselves were not destroyed during the french revolution (they could have been destroyed before it, too, though) because their location were lost already, then (a lot of them, after the viking raids, long before 1793). The effigies were destroyed but not necessarily the tombs. Here is a link (in french) listing the kings and where people think they were burried : http://saintdenis-tombeaux.1fr1.net/...-hors-de-paris But even in St Denis there are undisturbed old (Merovingian ?) tombs which were not digged by archeologists either, in the layer where Arégonde was found.

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    My husband is Plantagenet ancestor from Saint James family in Iles-et-Vilain Bretagne. His y-dna haplogroup is P31358. He is G2a3 and his 4xgreat grandparents were in Lancaster/York. Grandfather from Cayo, Wales to Ohio USA.


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