Anatolian Hypothesis: Lord Renfrew still a partial holdout

[A. Papadimitriou]

Concerning Myceneans, the model that appeared better in the study (based on the graph) was.
79.8 Minoan Lasithi, 8.5 Armenia MLBA, 11.8% Europe_LNBA

That shows actually no admixture from steppe proper.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Concerning Myceneans, the model that appeared better in the study (based on the graph) was.
79.8 Minoan Lasithi, 8.5 Armenia MLBA, 11.8% Europe_LNBA

That shows actually no admixture from steppe proper.

the study is undecisive, but there is some steppe admixture, be it arriving across the Caucasus through Armenia or through the Balkans
and it is not so much, but it is wat makes the difference between the non-IE Minoans and the IE Myceneans

 

[bicicleur 2]

A lot of people have proposed that, especially with regards to Indo-European and Afro-Asiatic, though as far as I know the latter's latest proposed coalescence time would be pretty much bang on the 12,000 years ago that farming took off in the Near East.

Where would isolates such as Basque, which it is occasionally claimed forms part of a larger language group with the above families, fit in? Are similarities really limited to a few cognates here and there? Was the proto-Afro-Euro-Dravidian tongue spoken in one of the Ice Age refugia in Southern Europe or the Balkans, with some of this group's descendants developing agriculture in Anatolia and the Levant?

it's a fabricated construction

 

[Tomenable]

of course there are cases like S America where less % change the language of pre-congistadores era

Yes for example Bolivia and Peru.

But I can tell you that there is also a lot of variation within these countries. On GEDmatch I found 43 non-academic (not from HGDP, not from 1000 Genomes, and not Quechua or Aymara Indians) Peruvian and Bolivian kits, and they range from just 1% European to as much as 86% European. The ones who are mostly European probably have some post-colonial immigrant European ancestry, but maybe not in all cases.

I'm pretty sure that among Mycenaeans there was also a cline of Steppe ancestry, with some being almost fully Minoan, and some being significantly Steppe-admixed.

But so far we only have a few Mycenaean samples. That's really a very small sample size.

Come back to me when you will have a solid sample size, for example 40 Mycenaeans.

 

[Tomenable]

Look for example how diverse are Balkan Bronze Age samples - they range from over 50% Steppe to almost no Steppe. I expect something like this among Mycenaeans, once we get more of Mycenaean samples:

Pink is EHG (WHG is green), so probably it should be added to Steppe (yellow):

 

[Promenade]

but that is the problem Promenade
R1a lacks Gedrosian component

so genetics did not prove yet the IE origin of steppe
although the results seem better until the late paper
so we are still to the method of comparison results of certain theories

and I do not think think the word chestnut is from Greek or from Iran or from whoeverIE
the termination computer is after English
the termination economy is after Greek
the termination tobacco is common due to non Europe product, unknown to early Europeans, brought from America
but the words like chestnut or tree
I do not think so.
people were fed much before any entrance of steppe people
and recogn and gave names to plants

So how come the IE ptelela limetree linden-tree
Greek πτελεα
latin tilia
etc etc
can be from steppe?
or the tree ulmus elm-tree

that is why I can not accept steppe as homeland of IE language
cause these things do not exist at steppe
and yet the road from Steppe to Yamnaa to west Europe
shows the same name with the ones on the road from Steppe to Iran and India
SO these words are PIE but how come since do not exist at Steppe

The lack of Gedrosia admixture in modern NE Europe isn't too surprising since we already observe higher EEF ancestry and lower CHG ancestry in R1a steppe populations as opposed to R1b ones which correlates to higher Caucasian admixture in east Europe today where Gedrosia is lacking. Also Gedrosia admixture actually has been found in R1a carrying cultures from the steppe, although at a lower rate than predominantly R1b carrying ones and it seems across the board that Gedrosia admixture fell drastically in Europe leading up to modern times. In populations with predominantly R1b the Gedrosia admixture was great enough for it to still be detected today at significant levels, but in majority R1a populations that had less Gedrosia it has decreased enough to become undetectable. In some areas Gedrosia decreased over ten percent so that is more than enough for it to completely disappear in R1a populations. Perhaps R1b carrying groups on the steppe were closer to the incursion of Gedrosian admixture across the Caucasus than R1a groups were during the initial admixture event or maybe R1b groups crossed the Caucasus and brought back the Gedrosia admixture since CHG has been modeled before as IranNeo with some EHG. Alternatively as suggested by Maciamo R1a in northeast Europe could have been spread by IEnised EHGs without any Gedrosia admixture. In any event this component has not been identified by any professional paper and remains speculation based on the use of samples from modern populations, it is anything but damming.


As for linguistics the Corded Ware culture was located in a forested region and could have been responsible for transmitting words dealing with trees. I am not an arborist, but I am aware both linden and elm trees grow in this location. Shared agricultural terms could have been transmitted through cultural exchange with the GAC by the CWC. There is already an established connection between CWC, the Sintashta culture, the Catacomb culture and the Bell Beaker culture so this would include a range of IE language groups from indo-aryan to italo-celtic. Alternatively the lexicon could have been brought earlier from the Caucasus where people were already intimate with farming, but I am not sure if such trees you mentioned are located there.

Concerning Myceneans, the model that appeared better in the study (based on the graph) was.
79.8 Minoan Lasithi, 8.5 Armenia MLBA, 11.8% Europe_LNBA

That shows actually no admixture from steppe proper.

This resolves where Renfrew's 20 percent figure for steppe related ancestry originates.

 

[Angela]

Look for example how diverse are Balkan Bronze Age samples - they range from over 50% Steppe to almost no Steppe. I expect something like this among Mycenaeans, once we get more of Mycenaean samples:

Pink is EHG (WHG is green), so probably it should be added to Steppe (yellow):

Always the obfuscation. Precisely one sample was over 50%. None of the others were even close to 50%. There was no "replacement" in the Balkans, no big wave of "invaders" drastically changing the genetics.

Whether more samples in Greece proper turn up a few outliers with higher percents or not won't change the narrative. You guys were wrong...again.

 

[Tomenable]

About the origins of Corded Ware (directly from Sredny Stog, or from Hungarian Yamnaya?):

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/12/corded-ware-as-offshoot-of-hungarian.html

This Ukrainian sample of R1a-M417 (I6561) was very similar to Yamnaya and German Corded Ware:

https://i.imgur.com/8TbQ44f.png

Supervised K=4 admixture run is Fig.1.D. and unsupervised K=12 is from Extended Data Fig.2.:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/09/19/135616.full.pdf

Dark green & dark blue admixtures in this K=12 are Neolithic and pretty much interchangeable.

 

[Tomenable]

Maybe that light green component in K=12 above is something like Gedrosia.

You can see that Corded Ware and Sredny Stog II (R1a) samples don't have it.

 

[Tomenable]

Always the obfuscation. Precisely one sample was over 50%. None of the others were even close to 50%. There was no "replacement" in the Balkans, no big wave of "invaders" drastically changing the genetics. Whether more samples in Greece proper turn up a few outliers with higher percents or not won't change the narrative. You guys were wrong...again.

The only major difference between Minoans and Mycenaeans was the Steppe admixture. So how does it prove us wrong? It proves us right, because we know that Minoans were Non-Indo-European people, they did not speak Proto-Greek. Proto-Greek language came together with Steppe admixture. It doesn't always require a major population replacement to change the language. Just the ruling elite had to change. Hungarians for example speak an Ugro-Finnic language but genetically they are mostly Indo-European. Turks speak a language that came to Anatolia with invaders from Central Asia in the 11th century AD, but they are mostly descended from local Anatolians, not from those Turkic invaders.

Precisely one sample was over 50%. None of the others were even close to 50%

And among Mycenaeans probably people with over 50% of Steppe admixture were also just a small minority. But I wouldn't rule out the possibility that such people existed among them. They were probably not all homogeneous with similar levels of all admixtures. Check for example this recent Longobard study. As you can see, some of the Longobards were genetically fully Northern European with no signs of any Southern European admixture. Today you cannot find Italians who plot in Scandinavia. Everyone became mixed over the generations. But in the Early Middle Ages, some people in Italy were still of 100% "barbarian" ancestry, still not mixed with the locals:

 

[Angela]

Another old trick: straw man arguments.

I never, ever, denied that a group carrying some degree of steppe admixture brought the Greek language to Greece. Stop implying I did.

What your standard bearer claimed, barely a week before these results came out, is that the Mycenaeans would turn out to be R1a carrying, virtual clones of Corded Ware people fresh from the steppe. WRONG!

Yamnaya would turn out to be blonde, horse riding nomads. WRONG.

Really, I don't have the time or the patience to list all the dozens of other garbage predictions.

Razib Khan posted the following in an end of year article: " if the evidence does not fit just say that the evidence says the opposite of what it does. People will believe because they want to believe."

Another tactic is to state that you never predicted what you in fact did predict and hope no one will remember.

Still another is to try to distract from incorrect predictions by arguing irrelevant details. Yes, a few people among the Mycenaeans may have had a lot of steppe ancestry. Who cares? What difference does it make?

The amount of steppe ancestry in Mycenaeans is much smaller than predicted; there was no genetic tidal wave; Mycenaeans are not "Nordics" by another name. The accomplishments of the Mycenaeans had nothing to do with some "superior" bloodlines from the "north", aside from the fact that they learned everything from the Minoans. All that Nordicism crap was just that. End of story.

I'm bored with this. Have you people no other interests?

 

[Tomenable]

Yeah I think that Proto-Greeks did not come to Greece directly from the Steppe but rather from Northern Balkans or from Central Europe. So it was foolish to assume that they would turn out to be 100% Steppe.

But even in Bronze Age Balkans some people were still over 50% Steppe (one sample out of 12 was over 50% Steppe, 8% of the total - so for example if Proto-Greek invaders numbered 50,000 people then as many as 4,000 of them could be over 50% Steppe in terms of autosomal DNA, which is STILL a significant number of "Steppe cowboys" ).

We cannot exclude the possibility that some of the Proto-Greeks were >50% Steppe.

 

[Angela]

See the above. You're too quick on the draw.

 

[Tomenable]

I'm not really engaging in this stupid Nordic supremacy vs. Mediterranist supremacy battle of egos.

But claimining that all achievements of Mycenaeans can be attributed to their "Minoan DNA" is a stretch IMO because DNA is not everything, culture is also important. And there were major changes in culture and organization of the society after Mycenaean invasion. It was no longer the same society even if they shared a lot of deoxyribonucleic acid with Minoans.

Just like modern White American and European societies are very different on so many levels (mentality, culture, values, levels of religiosity, etc.) despite sharing common ancestors before Columbus.

Also Puerto Rican bees and African bees share overall very high levels of autosomal similarity, and one group is descended from the other, but behaviorally they are different:

https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2017...gentleness-in-puerto-rican-african-honeybees/

 

[Angela]

Please don't project your issues onto me. I'm not a "supremacist" of any type.

I just believe in following the logic wherever it takes me.

Btw, I don't consider a militaristic, highly patriarchal society an achievement or something to be lauded.

Their achievements are due to their borrowing from Minoan CULTURE.

How you interpret comments says much more about YOUR mindset than about mine.

 

[davef]

Yeah I think that Proto-Greeks did not come to Greece directly from the Steppe but rather from Northern Balkans or from Central Europe. So it was foolish to assume that they would turn out to be 100% Steppe.

But even in Bronze Age Balkans some people were still over 50% Steppe (one sample out of 12 was over 50% Steppe, 8% of the total - so for example if Proto-Greek invaders numbered 50,000 people then as many as 4,000 of them could be over 50% Steppe in terms of autosomal DNA, which is STILL a significant number of "Steppe cowboys" ).

We cannot exclude the possibility that some of the Proto-Greeks were >50% Steppe.

Well yes we would see a minority that was half steppe because if steppe people did mix with Minoans they'd produce offspring that's half Minoan half Steppe. It had to happen at some point, that's a natural law. You're half mom half pop. It then likely degraded over time due to the majority Minoan population.

But I'm with you in that the sample size is small and who knows i could be wrong by a long shot. I'm open to that.

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

This resolves where Renfrew's 20 percent figure for steppe related ancestry originates.

Not exactly, and either way I never payed attention to what he said, although I do not support the Kurgan hypothesis.

[Someone could say that not the steppes but cultures grouped under the label Europe_LNBA (or a part of them) or Armenia_MLBA represents 'the Proto-Indoeuropeans', or someone could say that Iran Neolithic represents 'the Proto-Indoeuropeans' etc. ]

In the study there are 12 models, by the way, one is like 89% 'Minoan', for example.

Also since the steppe proper admixture is mostly EHG + Iran Neolithic/CHG the steppe-like admixture can be theoretically a result of two admixture events one from a population that had EHG but not Iran Neolithic and a second from a population who had Iran Neolithic/CHG but not EHG.

 

[Tomenable]

3rd Law of Behavior Genetics says that a substantial portion of the variation in complex human behavioral traits is not accounted for by either the effects of genes or families:

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0963721415580430

And this article says that even if you are directly descended from some group, it doesn't mean that you are behaviorally the same (one example are Vikings and modern Swedes):

https://archive.unews.utah.edu/news_releases/are-humans-evolving-faster/

"We aren’t the same as people even 1,000 or 2,000 years ago," he says, which may explain, for example, part of the difference between Viking invaders and their peaceful Swedish descendants.

Just like Puerto Rican bees are more peaceful than their ancestors due to genetic drift as well as soft selection on several genes. Even without admixtures with other groups, you are not the same as your direct ancestors.

Add to this also the effects of gene-culture coevolution and epigenetic changes:

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2017-07-epigenetics-inherit-genes.html

"We are more than the sum of our genes. Epigenetic mechanisms modulated by environmental cues such as diet, disease or lifestyle take a major role in regulating the DNA by switching genes on and off. It has been long debated if epigenetic modifications accumulated throughout the entire life can cross the border of generations and be inherited to children or even grand children. Now researchers from the Max Planck Institute of Immunobiology and Epigenetics in Freiburg show robust evidence that not only the inherited DNA itself but also the inherited epigenetic instructions contribute in regulating gene expression in the offspring. Moreover, the new insights by the Lab of Nicola Iovino describe for the first time biological consequences of this inherited information. The study proves that mother's epigenetic memory is essential for the development and survival of the new generation. Humans have more than 250 different cell types. They all contain the exact same DNA bases in exactly the same order; however, liver or nerve cells look very different and have different skills. What makes the difference is a process called epigenetics. Epigenetic modifications label specific regions of the DNA to attract or keep away proteins that activate genes. Thus, these modifications create, step by step, the typical patterns of active and inactive DNA sequences for each cell type. Moreover, contrary to the fixed sequence of 'letters' in DNA, epigenetic marks can also change throughout life and in responses to environment or lifestyle. (...)"

So this whole Greek nationalism/supremacy based on Myceanean DNA doesn't make much sense. Look at your own generation and try to improve the state of your country - which as everyone can see, is not the best - instead of recalling some glorious ancient past and claiming being direct DNA-descendants of mythological heroes.

 

[LeBrok]

Yeah I think that Proto-Greeks did not come to Greece directly from the Steppe but rather from Northern Balkans or from Central Europe. So it was foolish to assume that they would turn out to be 100% Steppe.

But even in Bronze Age Balkans some people were still over 50% Steppe (one sample out of 12 was over 50% Steppe, 8% of the total - so for example if Proto-Greek invaders numbered 50,000 people then as many as 4,000 of them could be over 50% Steppe in terms of autosomal DNA, which is STILL a significant number of "Steppe cowboys" ).

We cannot exclude the possibility that some of the Proto-Greeks were >50% Steppe.

Again you are assuming wrong. The BA Balkan samples are not very good quality, that's why some of them show 50%. I hope you understand that when there is only small amount of recovered DNA the proportions of admixtures will be very inaccurate.
Also, as we know, you predicted so many things wrong, that only logical action is to acknowledge you are not very good at it and is to stop predicting. Let's stick to facts that we know and look with an open mind.

 

[Yetos]

The lack of Gedrosia admixture in modern NE Europe isn't too surprising since we already observe higher EEF ancestry and lower CHG ancestry in R1a steppe populations as opposed to R1b ones which correlates to higher Caucasian admixture in east Europe today where Gedrosia is lacking. Also Gedrosia admixture actually has been found in R1a carrying cultures from the steppe, although at a lower rate than predominantly R1b carrying ones and it seems across the board that Gedrosia admixture fell drastically in Europe leading up to modern times. In populations with predominantly R1b the Gedrosia admixture was great enough for it to still be detected today at significant levels, but in majority R1a populations that had less Gedrosia it has decreased enough to become undetectable. In some areas Gedrosia decreased over ten percent so that is more than enough for it to completely disappear in R1a populations. Perhaps R1b carrying groups on the steppe were closer to the incursion of Gedrosian admixture across the Caucasus than R1a groups were during the initial admixture event or maybe R1b groups crossed the Caucasus and brought back the Gedrosia admixture since CHG has been modeled before as IranNeo with some EHG. Alternatively as suggested by Maciamo R1a in northeast Europe could have been spread by IEnised EHGs without any Gedrosia admixture. In any event this component has not been identified by any professional paper and remains speculation based on the use of samples from modern populations, it is anything but damming.


As for linguistics the Corded Ware culture was located in a forested region and could have been responsible for transmitting words dealing with trees. I am not an arborist, but I am aware both linden and elm trees grow in this location. Shared agricultural terms could have been transmitted through cultural exchange with the GAC by the CWC. There is already an established connection between CWC, the Sintashta culture, the Catacomb culture and the Bell Beaker culture so this would include a range of IE language groups from indo-aryan to italo-celtic. Alternatively the lexicon could have been brought earlier from the Caucasus where people were already intimate with farming, but I am not sure if such trees you mentioned are located there.






This resolves where Renfrew's 20 percent figure for steppe related ancestry originates.

exactly

Now you seem to start understand the dilema
but Myceneans did not came from North,
the most possible that came from S caucasus direct
and if we combine the Vucedol theory from 1928
then the max North myceneans might reach was Vucedol around 2000 BC
if we follow the old theory of1928 republished lately by Giannopoulos
Max North is south areas of Baden the area I many times mention as Vatin or Vucocar
how come so much J2 came from there
or why so little Yamnaa came from there?
I do not mention the ones we call NW Greeks or proto-Greeks
they may have even Yamnaa origin

they have nothing to Do with Yamnaa
neither Iranians have to do,
so how come Greco-Aryan has same vocabulary with N Europe forest culture, the Yamnaa culture, or corded ware etc?


THING THAT WE NEED TO REALIZE IS THIS
R1b of west Europe has Gedrosian Component
But Lacks Caucasus component
so it should be away or pass veryfast from Black sea
Maykop Yamnaa etc
Why R1b is so low at Caucasu component?
and so rich at Gedrosia? !!!! EVEN AT BASQUEZ/Gasgones
did't pass few centuries at Yamnaa or Maykop etc?what connection has Aryan vocabulary with cordedware forest area?
maybe Iranians came from Yamnaa too?
come on