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Thread: R1a1a1b2 and R1a1a1b2a separation date - Linking Yenisei Kyrgyz to modern Kyrgyz

  1. #1
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    R1a1a1b2 and R1a1a1b2a separation date - Linking Yenisei Kyrgyz to modern Kyrgyz

    Roughly speaking, the official line of the Kyrgyz Republic is that there was a mass migration of Yenisei Kyrgyz to modern day Kyrgyzstan some time after the Yenisei Kyrgyz overran the Uighur Khaganate. Common Y-DNA descent (r1a-z93) is presented as proof of not only supposed cultural link but also genetic one between modern Kyrgyz and Altai/Khakas populations. However Kyrgyz are predominantly R1a1a1b2a, and Altai people are R1a1a1b2.

    "In the complementary R1a-Z93 haplogroup, the paragroup R1a-Z93* is most common (>30%) in the South Siberian Altai region of Russia, but it also occurs in Kyrgyzstan (6%) and in all Iranian populations (1–8%). R1a-Z2125 occurs at highest frequencies in Kyrgyzstan and in Afghan Pashtuns (>40%)."

    Peter A Underhill European Journal of Human Genetics 23, 124–131 (2015)

    I did not find any information on the approximate date of subclade separation. Any thoughts?

    It seems that in all cases clinical distribution emerges out of the mountains (Altai, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Afghanistan) and that high frequency of Kyrgyz r1a (more than 60% according to some studies) comes from remnants of Indo-european Scythians whose Y-DNA survived in mountainous areas during proto-Turkic and Mongol expansions. Kyrgyz are apparently linked to Pashtuns and Tajiks who also live in the mountains to the south and not to Siberian founder effect subgroup. But the main question is when did the two subgroups separate?

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    I am Kyrgyz. You are quite right. It seems like most of the present day Kyrgyz people are descendents of local R1a-Z2125, not R1a-Z93*. Nevertheless the Kyrgyz language is the most Siberian Turkic language by structure and phonetics among all the Central Asia Turkic languages. By Central Asia I mean Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and Tajikistan. Mongolia and other parts of Siberia are not included in this definition. See examples below,

    1. Children is baldar in the Kyrgyz language like in Altay Kizhi language, not balalar like elsewhere.
    2. The word ele is used in both the Kyrgyz and Altay Kizhi languages, not in Central Asia.
    3. Hard sound j like in Jack is used in both Altay Kizhi and Kyrgyz languages. The other Central Asia languages have either y like in Yellow or g like in Genre.
    4. Long vowels are much more common in both the Kyrgyz, Altay Kizhi and Yakut languages than in other Central Asian Turkic languages. See uuru vs uruu.
    5. The Kyrgyz language has stronger vowel harmony just like other Siberian Turkic languages.

    So it looks like there was a strong influence of the Turkic speakers from Altay on the present day Kyrgyz language. This influence is a lot less visible in the Kazakh language although it is closer to the Altay area geographically. Perhaps, there was an elite-dominated dialect replacement in the modern Kyrgyz language by Siberian Altay Kizhi language speakers in the Middle Ages?

    The Altayan and/or Yenissey Kyrgyz people are likely to have brought the ethnonym Kyrgyz from Yenissey to the local Turkicized people in Tian Shan. I believe that most modern Kyrgyz people are descendents of the local Z2125 Scythian, not Altaic Z93*, and Xiongnu who came to Central Asia ca 1500 years ago. The autosomal analysis shows that Kyrgyz are 2/3 Xiongnu and 1/3 Scythian.
    Last edited by baltek; 08-04-19 at 17:31. Reason: Add a few things

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