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Thread: Mycenaeans R1a or R1b?

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    Mycenaeans R1a or R1b?

    By the latest genetic studies, which haplogroup do you think the early Mycenaen Greeks represent, R1a or R1b? Greek being a centum language suggests R1b but Greek shares some features with R1a Indo-Iranian as well.

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    Those are late Mycenaeans already well established in Greece for centuries. I'd speculate that Early Mycenaeans or rather Proto-Greeks had a more "northern" makeup and possibly had a lot of R1b and I2 despite already increasing CHG influence (and J2 coming with the package).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Those are late Mycenaeans already well established in Greece for centuries. I'd speculate that Early Mycenaeans or rather Proto-Greeks had a more "northern" makeup and possibly had a lot of R1b and I2 despite already increasing CHG influence (and J2 coming with the package).
    Why? Out of curiosity. There weren't any Mycenaeans around until those guys with the Steppe ancestry mixed with Minoans.
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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Why? Out of curiosity. There weren't any Mycenaeans around until those guys with the Steppe ancestry mixed with Minoans.
    Yes, not "Mycenaeans" properly as it's a cultural identity only formed when Proto-Greeks absorbed local Minoans or, rather, possibly peoples related to Minoans. But if the OP was asking about "Early Mycenaeans" in the sense of those earliest Greeks right after they migrated into Greece, they probably came from elsewhere and were still not very mixed with Greeks or people near Greece. In my opinion, they were possibly more "northern", either Balkanic or from Northeastern Turkey, so they should have a lot more R1b, I2 and perhaps also G2, not just J2. We can't deduce that Mycenaeans were all J2. They look very mixed to belong almost entirely to only one haplogroup, unless they experienced a really massive founder effect followed by huge expansion.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Yes, not "Mycenaeans" properly as it's a cultural identity only formed when Proto-Greeks absorbed local Minoans or, rather, possibly peoples related to Minoans. But if the OP was asking about "Early Mycenaeans" in the sense of those earliest Greeks right after they migrated into Greece, they probably came from elsewhere and were still not very mixed with Greeks or people near Greece. In my opinion, they were possibly more "northern", either Balkanic or from Northeastern Turkey, so they should have a lot more R1b, I2 and perhaps also G2, not just J2. We can't deduce that Mycenaeans were all J2. They look very mixed to belong almost entirely to only one haplogroup, unless they experienced a really massive founder effect followed by huge expansion.
    My only quibble would be that we don't know the size of the original Greek speaking group, or perhaps more specifically the group which spoke the language that would become Greek. It may not have been a particularly large group initially and so we may find little R1b or R1a among them, and more numerous will be the lineages of the peoples they assimilated along the way. Only the ancient dna will tell us.

    I think the extreme paucity of steppe like R1b and R1a in Greece is very telling.
    Last edited by Angela; 12-01-18 at 05:53.


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    Myceneans weren't proto-Greeks.

    I understand the reasons people assume CHG admixture arrived with J2a but that is not necessarily correct because in Neolithic Balkans and Anatolia there were people with J2a who were over 95% EEF.

    The people who brought the CHG admixture could belong to any haplogroup that could have expanded from around Caucasus (?) after the Neolithic.

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    What's a proto Greek??

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    What's a proto Greek??
    The people who spoke 'proto-Greek', an hypothetical language from which all Greek dialects descend.
    Those people most likely didn't use the terms Greek or Hellene.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    The people who spoke 'proto-Greek', an hypothetical language from which all Greek dialects descend.
    Those people most likely didn't use the terms Greek or Hellene.
    Oh ok that's interesting. Thanks!

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    Maybe it would be helpful if there was less quibbling over terminology and more focus on substance.

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