Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 41

Thread: R1b-L51/PF7589

  1. #1
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Carbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-12-17
    Posts
    21
    Points
    1,758
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,758, Level: 11
    Level completed: 70%, Points required for next Level: 92
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-PF7590
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a2b

    Ethnic group
    Italic
    Country: Italy



    R1b-L51/PF7589

    "The study of Sardinian Y-DNA by Francalacci et al. (2013) allowed to have a look at the subclades of R1b-PF7589-->PF7590 on this island that has not been settled by the Celts or the Etruscans, nor by an Italic tribe besides the Romans."..."The geographic isolation of Sardinia has left its inhabitants to a large degree unaffected by outside influences, apart from a minority of Phoenician, Roman and Vandal colonisers. ".... "In other words, all the Indo-European R1b in Sardinia (bar a tiny percentage of Germanic R1b brought by the Vandals) can be attributed to the Romans."

    Roman domination of Sardinia lasted 694 years, during which it was an important source of grain for the capital. Latin came to be the dominant spoken language of Sardinia during this period, though Roman culture was slower to take hold, and Roman rule was often contested by the inhabitants of Sardinia's mountainous central regions."

    Turris Libisonis, the Roman colony of caesarian foundation . This colony, the only one of Roman citizens in the province of “Sardinia”, bore the name of “Iulia”.


    This is yet more evidence that PF7589 and PF7590 in Italy was probably the dominant Roman lineages (ancient italic people latin tribe? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latins_(Italic_tribe) )


    PF7590 formed 4600 ybp, TMRCA 1500 ybp

  2. #2
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Carbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-12-17
    Posts
    21
    Points
    1,758
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,758, Level: 11
    Level completed: 70%, Points required for next Level: 92
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-PF7590
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a2b

    Ethnic group
    Italic
    Country: Italy



    R-l51/pf7589

    "The study of Sardinian Y-DNA by Francalacci et al. (2013) allowed to have a look at the subclades of R1b-PF7589-->PF7590 on this island that has not been settled by the Celts or the Etruscans, nor by an Italic tribe besides the Romans."..."The geographic isolation of Sardinia has left its inhabitants to a large degree unaffected by outside influences, apart from a minority of Phoenician, Roman and Vandal colonisers. ".... "In other words, all the Indo-European R1b in Sardinia (bar a tiny percentage of Germanic R1b brought by the Vandals) can be attributed to the Romans."

    Roman domination of Sardinia lasted 694 years, during which it was an important source of grain for the capital. Latin came to be the dominant spoken language of Sardinia during this period, though Roman culture was slower to take hold, and Roman rule was often contested by the inhabitants of Sardinia's mountainous central regions."

    Turris Libisonis, the Roman colony of caesarian foundation . This colony, the only one of Roman citizens in the province of “Sardinia”, bore the name of “Iulia”.


    This is yet more evidence that PF7589 and PF7590 in Italy was probably the dominant Roman lineages (ancient italic people latin tribe? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latins_(Italic_tribe) )


    PF7590 formed 4600 ybp, TMRCA 1500 ybp

  3. #3
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    16,213
    Points
    334,778
    Level
    100
    Points: 334,778, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Carbo View Post
    "The study of Sardinian Y-DNA by Francalacci et al. (2013) allowed to have a look at the subclades of R1b-PF7589-->PF7590 on this island that has not been settled by the Celts or the Etruscans, nor by an Italic tribe besides the Romans."..."The geographic isolation of Sardinia has left its inhabitants to a large degree unaffected by outside influences, apart from a minority of Phoenician, Roman and Vandal colonisers. ".... "In other words, all the Indo-European R1b in Sardinia (bar a tiny percentage of Germanic R1b brought by the Vandals) can be attributed to the Romans."

    Roman domination of Sardinia lasted 694 years, during which it was an important source of grain for the capital. Latin came to be the dominant spoken language of Sardinia during this period, though Roman culture was slower to take hold, and Roman rule was often contested by the inhabitants of Sardinia's mountainous central regions."

    Turris Libisonis, the Roman colony of caesarian foundation . This colony, the only one of Roman citizens in the province of “Sardinia”, bore the name of “Iulia”.


    This is yet more evidence that PF7589 and PF7590 in Italy was probably the dominant Roman lineages (ancient italic people latin tribe? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latins_(Italic_tribe) )


    PF7590 formed 4600 ybp, TMRCA 1500 ybp
    That's an unwarranted conclusion based on those facts. As just one factor, many mainland Italians have moved to the island over the last 1500 years,as they have to Corsica.Like everyone else, you're going to have to wait for ancient DNA.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  4. #4
    Moderator Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Pax Augusta's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-06-14
    Location
    Ara Pacis
    Posts
    1,123
    Points
    31,106
    Level
    54
    Points: 31,106, Level: 54
    Level completed: 24%, Points required for next Level: 844
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carbo View Post
    "The study of Sardinian Y-DNA by Francalacci et al. (2013) allowed to have a look at the subclades of R1b-PF7589-->PF7590 on this island that has not been settled by the Celts or the Etruscans, nor by an Italic tribe besides the Romans.".
    This seems no longer true. To be precise it was a Villanovan settlement in Sardinia.



    Etruscan settlement found in Sardinia for first time

    http://www.ansamed.info/ansamed/en/n...bf654b775.html

  5. #5
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Carbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-12-17
    Posts
    21
    Points
    1,758
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,758, Level: 11
    Level completed: 70%, Points required for next Level: 92
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-PF7590
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a2b

    Ethnic group
    Italic
    Country: Italy



    1 members found this post helpful.
    R-PF7590 is currently found only in Italy: mine in Apulia (Taranto) and in Sardinia with Freancalacci. It is possible that R-PF7590 was born in Italy
    It may have been brought to Apulia by the Romans with the deduction of the NEPTUNIA colony in 123 BC and Brundisium 247 or 244 BC. therefore of Italic origin and probably of LATIN ethnic group.
    Last edited by Carbo; 15-01-18 at 18:09.

  6. #6
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    18-01-18
    Posts
    1
    Points
    22
    Level
    1
    Points: 22, Level: 1
    Level completed: 43%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Poland



    I'm Russian and polish (father's side is Russian) and I have r1b L51, does anyone have any information on this?

  7. #7
    Princess Achievements:
    Overdrive10000 Experience PointsVeteranThree Friends
    davef's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-06-16
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,240
    Points
    12,148
    Level
    33
    Points: 12,148, Level: 33
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 502
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italian,Irish,Jewish
    Country: USA - New York



    2 members found this post helpful.
    ^^ if I were you bro I'd change that username
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

  8. #8
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    AdeoF's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-03-13
    Location
    London - England
    Posts
    251
    Points
    5,643
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,643, Level: 22
    Level completed: 19%, Points required for next Level: 407
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L21 (R-DF13)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1 (H1h1) or (H1e1)

    Ethnic group
    Spanish
    Country: UK - England



    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    ^^ if I were you bro I'd change that username
    I wonder how you do that i wanna change mine too if possible

  9. #9
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Carbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-12-17
    Posts
    21
    Points
    1,758
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,758, Level: 11
    Level completed: 70%, Points required for next Level: 92
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-PF7590
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a2b

    Ethnic group
    Italic
    Country: Italy



    "According to my own timeline, I would say that R-PF7589 arose 5000-5200 years ago in present-day Romania (or possibly Hungary?), along with U106 and my own group R-P312. Their L51 ancestors had probably migrated from the Volga region to southern Ukraine about a thousand years earlier (6000-6200 years ago). I discuss this more fully in the "Horse domestication" thread.
    However, from Hungary, there are two possible routes. One possibility is that CTS6889/CTS11824 would have gone directly west (south of the Alps) to Italy early on. The other possibility is that they continued with P312 and U106 up the Danube, and then much later entered Italy from the north (with the Latin migration). I suspect it was the latter. . "

    R-PF7589+ may have arrived in Italy with the waves of immigration of the Indo-Europeans: Latin
    The ancient latin they had moved into the Italy from central Europe before 1000\2000 BC
    "The Latins were an Indo-European people who probably migrated into the Italian peninsula during the late Bronze Age (1200–900 BC). Numerous relics of the nomadic steppe culture of the Proto-Indo-Europeans have been discerned in Roman customs. Their language, Latin, belonged to the Italic branch of Indo-European."

  10. #10
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    23-12-17
    Posts
    37
    Points
    1,439
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,439, Level: 10
    Level completed: 45%, Points required for next Level: 111
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-Z43
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5F

    Ethnic group
    italian
    Country: Italy



    1 members found this post helpful.
    I have my Y R-Z43 do you have some information I come from ITALY TUSCANY FLORENCE

  11. #11
    Moderator Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Pax Augusta's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-06-14
    Location
    Ara Pacis
    Posts
    1,123
    Points
    31,106
    Level
    54
    Points: 31,106, Level: 54
    Level completed: 24%, Points required for next Level: 844
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by roberto1960 View Post
    I have my Y R-Z43 do you have some information I come from ITALY TUSCANY FLORENCE
    And what are you doing in Peru?

  12. #12
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    23-12-17
    Posts
    37
    Points
    1,439
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,439, Level: 10
    Level completed: 45%, Points required for next Level: 111
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-Z43
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5F

    Ethnic group
    italian
    Country: Italy



    1 members found this post helpful.
    I am working , today in lima the pope francesco ultimo imperatore di roma

  13. #13
    Princess Achievements:
    Overdrive10000 Experience PointsVeteranThree Friends
    davef's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-06-16
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,240
    Points
    12,148
    Level
    33
    Points: 12,148, Level: 33
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 502
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italian,Irish,Jewish
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by roberto1960 View Post
    I am working , today in lima the pope francesco ultimo imperatore di roma
    Awesome, did you see the speech?

  14. #14
    Moderator Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Pax Augusta's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-06-14
    Location
    Ara Pacis
    Posts
    1,123
    Points
    31,106
    Level
    54
    Points: 31,106, Level: 54
    Level completed: 24%, Points required for next Level: 844
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by roberto1960 View Post
    I have my Y R-Z43 do you have some information I come from ITALY TUSCANY FLORENCE
    Again, I already answered you. Z43 is under U152/S28 Z56.


  15. #15
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    23-12-17
    Posts
    37
    Points
    1,439
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,439, Level: 10
    Level completed: 45%, Points required for next Level: 111
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-Z43
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5F

    Ethnic group
    italian
    Country: Italy



    It is roma italic origin?

  16. #16
    Viscount Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsThree FriendsVeteran
    Azzurro's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-08-16
    Posts
    380
    Points
    3,160
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,160, Level: 16
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 290
    Overall activity: 2.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-Y15222
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a2b5

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by roberto1960 View Post
    It is roma italic origin?
    Roberto, Roma is definately of Italic origin, your Y-line is very likely Roman in origin if not Italic at the very least.

    https://yfull.com/tree/R-Z56/

    If you look at the Yfull tree you’ll that most branches of Z56 are expanding at the same time as the Italic tribes entered Italy.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Carbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-12-17
    Posts
    21
    Points
    1,758
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,758, Level: 11
    Level completed: 70%, Points required for next Level: 92
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-PF7590
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a2b

    Ethnic group
    Italic
    Country: Italy



    the oldest R-PF7589/ CTS6889- have diffused in Tuscany (Italy)...

    ***Hypothesis spread Italian *** L51/CTS6889+ with an expansion from Italy to Central Europe? ( Ancient Roman DNA ? )

    It seems to me that these data are the demonstration of all theories, of the "Rifugio Italiano" (?)(Gioiello Tognoni) .

  18. #18
    Viscount Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsThree FriendsVeteran
    Azzurro's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-08-16
    Posts
    380
    Points
    3,160
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,160, Level: 16
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 290
    Overall activity: 2.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-Y15222
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a2b5

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Canada



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carbo View Post
    the oldest R-PF7589/ CTS6889- have diffused in Tuscany (Italy)...

    ***Hypothesis spread Italian *** L51/CTS6889+ with an expansion from Italy to Central Europe? ( Ancient Roman DNA ? )

    It seems to me that these data are the demonstration of all theories, of the "Rifugio Italiano" (?)(Gioiello Tognoni) .
    No Gioiello’s theory is fringe and has been proven wrong by virtually all ancient dna papers

  19. #19
    Junior Member Achievements:
    7 days registered

    Join Date
    30-01-18
    Posts
    2
    Points
    79
    Level
    1
    Points: 79, Level: 1
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 71
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Sardinian
    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Carbo View Post
    "In other words, all the Indo-European R1b in Sardinia (bar a tiny percentage of Germanic R1b brought by the Vandals) can be attributed to the Romans."
    Directly or indirectly? I see in the eupedia map that the frequence of Roman R1b (R-S28) are more elevated in the extreme north of Sardinia, that was recolonized by Corsicans centuries ago. Since Corsicans show a high percentage of this haplogroup, probably due to contacts with Italian regions beyond the sea, from which they borrowed also the language, it seems to me that Sardinian R1b frequencies could descend mostly from this Corsican influence.
    Or not?

  20. #20
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    23-12-17
    Posts
    37
    Points
    1,439
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,439, Level: 10
    Level completed: 45%, Points required for next Level: 111
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-Z43
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5F

    Ethnic group
    italian
    Country: Italy



    in sardinia sassari I find one person with R-Z43

  21. #21
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    16,213
    Points
    334,778
    Level
    100
    Points: 334,778, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Mainlanders have been moving into Corsica, Sardinia, and from Corsica into Sardinia for a long time.

    Teresa is correct that there's more of it in the North, probably as a result of it filtering down from Corsica.

    I don't know that there's any justification at all for saying it was all Romans. It's not as if Romans made any folk migration there.

    I think all the population genetics studies that talk about the fact that the Sardinians are a good proxy for the Neolithic farming populations of Europe don't emphasize enough that this is based on the genetic sample picked by Luigi Cavalli-Sforza from the isolated inland plateau around Ogliasatra.

    The more accessible regions of Sardegna, including the north, have some ancestry from other places.

    See: Chiang et al
    "Population history of the Sardinian people inferred from whole-genome sequencing"
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...92148.full.pdf
    Last edited by Angela; 04-02-18 at 02:38.

  22. #22
    Princess Achievements:
    Overdrive10000 Experience PointsVeteranThree Friends
    davef's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-06-16
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,240
    Points
    12,148
    Level
    33
    Points: 12,148, Level: 33
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 502
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italian,Irish,Jewish
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Mainlanders have been moving into Corsica, Sardinia, and from Corsica into Sardinia for a long time.

    Teresa is correct that there's more of it in the North, probably as a result of it filtering down from Corsica.

    I don't know that there's any justification at all for saying it was all Romans. It's not as if Romans made any folk migration there.

    I think all the population genetics studies that talk about the fact that the Sardinians are a good proxy for the Neolithic farming populations of Europe don't emphasize enough that this is based on the genetic sample picked by Luigi Cavalli-Sforza from the isolated inland plateau around Ogliasatra.

    The more accessible regions of Sardegna, including the north, have some ancestry from other places.

    See: Chiang et al
    "Population history of the Sardinian people inferred from whole-genome sequencing"
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...92148.full.pdf
    Oh wow i thought they were all 100 percent European farmer, this is completely new to me

  23. #23
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Carbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-12-17
    Posts
    21
    Points
    1,758
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,758, Level: 11
    Level completed: 70%, Points required for next Level: 92
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-PF7590
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a2b

    Ethnic group
    Italic
    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Carbo View Post
    R-PF7590 is currently found only in Italy: mine in Apulia (Taranto) and in Sardinia with Freancalacci. It is possible that R-PF7590 was born in Italy
    It may have been brought to Apulia by the Romans with the deduction of the NEPTUNIA colony in 123 BC and Brundisium 247 or 244 BC. therefore of Italic origin and probably of LATIN ethnic group.
    R-PF7589 ->PF7590 that it came with the LATIN/ITALIC Indo-European migrations during the Bronze Age.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Carbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-12-17
    Posts
    21
    Points
    1,758
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,758, Level: 11
    Level completed: 70%, Points required for next Level: 92
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-PF7590
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a2b

    Ethnic group
    Italic
    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by roberto1960 View Post
    It is roma italic origin?
    R-PF7589->PF7590 that it came with the LATIN/ITALIC TRIBE Indo-European migrations during the Bronze Age.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Carbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-12-17
    Posts
    21
    Points
    1,758
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,758, Level: 11
    Level completed: 70%, Points required for next Level: 92
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-PF7590
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a2b

    Ethnic group
    Italic
    Country: Italy



    hypothesis :
    From what we know so far it seems that R-L51-PF7589 was born and expanded from Italy:
    R-L51 L51/M412/S167/PF6536 * PF6535 * CTS10373/PF6537/FGC39+2 SNPs5600 ybp, TMRCA CI 95% 65005200 ybp" class="age" formed 6300 ybp, TMRCA 5800 ybp
    id:ERS257000 ITA [IT-CA]

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •