Living Dna results GREEK (unexpected results)

[PRAETOR]

Hello! it's my first post at the forum. I did the Living Dna test a few months before, and i'm really surprised with the results. I am Greek, my Father is from Thessaly and my mother from Crete. I have done a very big research for my ancestry. The last 200 years all my known ancestors are from Crete and Thessaly. Autosomal Living Dna results gave me Europe East 43,9 - Europe South 28,5- Europe North and West 3,5 and unassigned 1,9 also Iran 11- Levant 6,5 and unassigned 4,6. I have no East Balkan, Italian or Iranian ancestors. The most surprising is my Father Halpogroup H1a1 (H-M82) he is total white skin with blonde hair and blue eyes (and it is a Romani Halpogroup). If I Had Romani ancestry i would score high at the India region... My mother’s Halpogroup is K1b1b and as i saw in Eupedia is found in Greek people. Any opinions??

[Messier 67]

I don't have any explanation for the breakdown of the regions. Except, it may indicate long ancestral presence in Europe and the Near East. Theoretically, if I trusted such companies, in most instances they are trying their best, but it still is a flawed system. And that is not against Living DNA, they may be one of the better companies.

Here is your haplogroup narrowed: https://www.yfull.com/tree/H-M82/

Mostly living in South Asia, according to yfull.

Accurate is the haplogroup. Less accurate is the region of the percentages. Seeing who else shares your DNA, like is shown for ancient studies (dots and lines or colored dots on a map), is fairly scientific, if done with enough genes and if it is not selectively biased.

[Dibran]

Maybe your H came earlier, during Alexanders campaigns in the east. I think I read somewhere that back and forth migration occurred between Asia and Macedon. Maybe even with the period of the Persian-Greek wars. Anything is possible. You should do a full Y test at ftdna or FGC. Maybe your branch is different from Romani.

[Ygorcs]

That you have supposedly Romani-derived Y-DNA H1 does not mean that you have autosomal DNA related to South Asians. I think it could actually be possible that that marker for "Iran" actually reflects a Northwestern Indian (mainly present-day Pakistan) origin, which is exactly where the Romani people are supposed to have come from, somewhere near the Himalayas. Let's just imagine that your father's H1 came from a Gypsy ancestor 700 years ago. That's basically 28 generations ago. Even if the parcel of this ancestor's DNA was lucky enough to be consistently "selected for" in the many combinations and recombinations with the DNA of other mothers and fathers throughout the centuries, you'd still be likely to have just a very tiny % of your DNA related to that ancient Gypsy predecessor. So, to me it makes perfect sense that you may be totally Greek-like and still descend from a Romani man (after all, the first Gypsies documented in history apparently lived in Turkey and Egypt, just the other side of the Aegean).

[PRAETOR]

Thank you very match for the answers. All the gedmatch calculators seem more accurate than LivingDNAs estimate. Most oracles give me Greek or South Italy ancestry and the calculators with Romani target group gives me 0%. Also how does a yfull dna test helps? At the living dna description says the H-Μ82 Haplogroup is for sure Romani.


MDLP K16

#	Population (source)	Distance
1	Greek (Greece)	3.5
2	Greek (Macedonia)	3.65
3	Greek (Athens)	3.68
4	Greek (Peloponnes)	6.12
5	Greek (Greece)	6.52
6	Italian (SouthItaly)	6.69
7	Greek (Thessaloniki)	6.84
8	Jew (Ashkenazi)	6.86
9	Albanian (Albania)	6.91
10	Sicilian (Sicily)	7.2
11	Italian (Abruzzo)	7.21
12	Jew (Ashkenazim)	7.29
13	Maltese (Malta)	8.64
14	Jew (Ashkenazi)	9.18
15	Kosovar (Kosovo)	9.42
16	Gagauz (Gagauzia)	9.47
17	Jew (Bulgaria)	9.48
18	Greek (Azov)	10.15
19	Jew (Italian)	10.34
20	Turk (Turkey)	10.91

Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15

#	Population	Percent
1	East_Med	25.43
2	West_Asian	15.34
3	West_Med	15.18
4	Atlantic	13.13
5	Baltic	11.79
6	North_Sea	6.98
7	Red_Sea	4.8
8	Eastern_Euro	4.37
9	South_Asian	1.27
10	Oceanian	0.89
11	Southeast_Asian	0.81

1	Greek	5.26
2	Central_Greek	5.56
3	East_Sicilian	6.76
4	Ashkenazi	7.04
5	Greek_Thessaly	7.74
6	Italian_Abruzzo	7.91
7	South_Italian	8.1
8	West_Sicilian	9.58
9	Bulgarian	11.96
10	Tuscan	12.39
11	Sephardic_Jewish	12.54
12	Italian_Jewish	12.65
13	Algerian_Jewish	13.6
14	Romanian	14.69
15	Tunisian_Jewish	16.21
16	Cyprian	16.97
17	Turkish	17.73
18	North_Italian	18.07
19	Libyan_Jewish	18.43
20	Serbian	18.69

[PRAETOR]

As you see on the 11% of Iranian ancestry at the cautious mode is listed as North-Central Italy related ancestry.

Living dna Standard

Europe 77.9%

Europe (East) 43.9%



East Balkans 43.9%







Europe (South) 28.5%



Tuscany 14%





South Italy 11.1%





Iberian Peninsula 3.4%







Europe (North and West) 3.5%



France 3.5%







Europe (unassigned) 1.9%






Near East 17.5%



Iran 11%





Levant 6.5%







World (unassigned) 4.6%




Living Dna cautious

Europe 77.9%

East Balkans-related ancestry 47.4%





Tuscany-related ancestry 28.6%





Europe (unassigned) 1.9%






North Central Italy-related ancestry 11%






Levant-related ancestry 6.5%






World (unassigned) 4.6%

[mihaitzateo]

Rromani people have South Asian admixture.
Since you do not have South Asian admixture is quite clear you have no Rromani/Indian ancestry.


H-M82 is not Rromani haplogroup only.
H-M82/H1a is also present in small percentages at Iranian people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_H_(Y-DNA)#Distribution_of_H1a1-M82_and_H2-P96
You also have Iranic admixture.
So the origin of your H1a/H-M82 is of Iranic ancestry.
How Iranic ancestry got in Greece?
Lots of possible sources, if you read the history.

See that 2% of Macedonian Greeks also carries H-M82.
I also see you cluster 2nd closest to Macedonian Greeks on K16.
You are sure that your father is not Macedonian Greek?
How H-M82 got at Macedonian Greeks?
From Iranic people very likely,or from Indian people,Alexander the Great conquered also India etc.

[PRAETOR]

Thank you very much, for you responce! It seems possible, Thessaly is very close to Greek Macedonia so hundrend year back maybe some of my ancestry is Macedonian.. I thing this mixture goes very back in time beause my father for sure doesn't look like Indian. My Halpogroup is H-M82 and subclade is H-M2972

[Dibran]

Rromani people have South Asian admixture.
Since you do not have South Asian admixture is quite clear you have no Rromani/Indian ancestry.


H-M82 is not Rromani haplogroup only.
H-M82/H1a is also present in small percentages at Iranian people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_H_(Y-DNA)#Distribution_of_H1a1-M82_and_H2-P96
You also have Iranic admixture.
So the origin of your H1a/H-M82 is of Iranic ancestry.
How Iranic ancestry got in Greece?
Lots of possible sources, if you read the history.

See that 2% of Macedonian Greeks also carries H-M82.
I also see you cluster 2nd closest to Macedonian Greeks on K16.
You are sure that your father is not Macedonian Greek?
How H-M82 got at Macedonian Greeks?
From Iranic people very likely,or from Indian people,Alexander the Great conquered also India etc.

Thank you very much, for you responce! It is seems possible, Thessaly is very close to Greek Macedonia so hundrend year back maybe some of the ancestry is Macedonian.. I thing this mixture goes very back in time beause my father for sure doesn't look like Indian. My Halpogroup is H-M82 and subclace is H-M2972

Yea, just as I suspected as well. Either with the Persian Empire during the Persian-Greek wars, or the migrants between Asia and the Balkans, during Alexanders campaigns. For example, one Albanian is J1, but his branch has a really old TMRCA as its not connected to current Levantine branches. In his case it could have been anything from Phoenicians or even the Persian Empire. I guess(if you want to be sure) you can do Full Y or FGC Yelite, and see what branch you belong. If you are negative downstream and belong to a newly disocvered branch, it may be more ancient. Especially if all your Romani matches under the line are to far from you.

[PRAETOR]

Thank you Dibran! I think you are both right because all the algorithms saw me Greek and Italian ancestry at Gedmatch so it must be very back in time. Living Dna East Balkan ancestry is also very high and i dont have relatives from there. And 0% Aegean??

[Dibran]

Thank you Dibran! I think you are both right because all the algorithms saw me Greek and Italian ancestry at Gedmatch so it must be very back in time. Living Dna East Balkan ancestry is also very high and i dont have relatives from there. And 0% Aegean??

Where in Greece are you from? Idk how high it would be, but East Balkan would make sense for Northern Greeks, or Greek Macedonians, due to Slavic settlements. Macedonians Bulgarians Romanians would typically score some East Balkan I think. I get 7.5 West Balkan myself which is supposedly based on Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro etc. It may just be taking your Steppe admixture as being close to East Balkan.

[PRAETOR]

I am from Thessaly and Crete. All my ancestors the last 200 year are from these places. Gedmatch is very close to my research. Living DNA also gives me 28% Italian ancestry, it doesnt seem very accurate.

[Dibran]

[QUOTE=mihaitzateo;529948]Rromani people have South Asian admixture.

I am from Thessaly and Crete. All my ancestors the last 200 year are from these places. Gedmatch is very close to my research. Living DNA also gives me 28% Italian ancestry, it doesnt seem very accurate.

If you read the description for each sample group it should make more sense. I don't think it means anything literally. For example, Tuscan type ancestry is believed to correlate to the Roman occupation. Considering even north west Europeans score some. Southern Italian and Sicilian are closer to Greek Islanders(So this is probably where its coming from in the case of Crete). And, Northern Italian type ancestry seems to correlate with admixtures that correspond to more northern admixtures, probably from Celtic settlements, and Germanic tribes etc. I think the main component for Albanians and Greeks seems to be Aegean ancestry. South Italy type ancestry is part of the Aegean figure. To my knowledge, southern Italy had alot of Greek colonization. This could be where your "Italian" is coming from. I think these companies tend to find the closest fit, which may not always be representative of the truth. In the coming years, we are expected to receive regionalization for the Balkans.

Here are my results.



Cautious mode(whilst less descriptive) is closest to the truth.

Cautious Mode:



Here are descriptions of each of my components.

Aegean

This genetic mixture appears to roughly cover the area of present day Greece and the Aegean Islands. Greece is often referred to as the cradle of Western civilisation, paving the way for great developments in medicine, architecture, politics and more. As the founders of democracy, the ancient Greeks changed the lives of future peoples across the globe. This was the first place in Europe to be introduced to farming (most likely from Anatolia), and the genetics of the area act as a living legacy to this. Farming appeared by 7000 BC, and studies have suggested that around 60% of DNA in the Aegean area today may be derived from these Neolithic inhabitants from the Near East, who intermixed with the existing hunter gatherer populations.
This genetic signature was influenced by early events, such as the absorption of the Minoans in Crete by the Mycenaeans from the mainland in c.1500 BC. From Pythagoras to Plato, the ancient Greeks have a rich history of leaders, battles, science and philosophy. Alexander the Great ruled the Aegean and spread Greek culture and genetics across Western Asian. The Aegean sea was a key route for trade and development until Greece was conquered by the Romans after the Battle of Corinth in 146 BC. From the Persians to the Ottomans, outside cultural and genetic influences at varying degrees occurred throughout the history of the Aegean.


North Italy

Italy has been a hub for genetic admixture over many millennia. The location connects the peninsula to the rest of Europe, allowing for migration and population expansion. Caves, such as the Fumane cave in the north towards the Alps, provided shelter and refuge for Neanderthals and early humans. The Alpine region near the Italian-Austrian border was where Europe’s oldest mummified body was found - Otzi the “ice man”, who lived around 5000 years ago.
North-Central European DNA can be found in the genetics of the North Italian population today. This is thought to be due to the closer proximity of the north to Europe, as Southern Italian populations typically showcase much less of this signature. Attempts have been made to pinpoint this genetic change, and studies suggest the influx of European DNA most likely occurred during the “migration period” from 476 AD after the Roman Era. Admixture could possibly have occurred earlier though, when Celtic tribes pushed the boundaries across the Alps and into Northern Italy from 400 BC. The Roman Era is no doubt one of the most famous periods in Italy’s history. The Gauls and Etruscans fought against the Roman conquests, but by 264 BC, the whole of the north had fallen at the Romans feet.





Technical Note

Italian ancestry is on a cline, from Northern European-like in the north to sharing with Greek & other populations surrounding the Mediterranean in the south. The ancestry is highly variable and hence hard to represent geographically.
If you have Italian ancestry that you didn’t expect: Italy is well inferred when it is the only ancestry source. Italian mixtures are extremely difficult however because Italy itself is a mixture of several ancestries. If you are a mixture of Spanish and Greek, you may appear to have South-Italian-like ancestry. Similarly, if you are a mixture of French and German, you may appear to have North-Italian like ancestry. Finally, a small amount of North African ancestry in an otherwise European individual could be mistaken for Italian.
If you have Italian ancestry but it is not inferred as strongly as expected: Italian-British mixtures may appear as partially French. Southern-Italian ancestry is reconstructed with some Aegean ancestry. North-African and Turkish ancestry may be used to capture sharing of ancestors between Italians and people from across the Mediterranean.


South Italy

This genetic signature is strongest in the areas that came to be known as southern and central Italy and spreads across all of present day Sicily. Over many thousands of years, this central mediterranean location has acted as a catalyst for creating a diverse society which is reflected in genetic variation. From the Greeks to the Normans, the area became a hot spot for conquest, invasion and trade. The region was central to the movement of objects, people and ideas, thus it is no surprise that genetic admixture occurred over the years. Human habitation increased when the Ice Age began to end around 12,000 years ago and the lands became more forgiving. Despite living around coastal regions, these hunter gatherers appear to have eaten little in the way of seafood and favoured terrestrial prey such as deer.
The Greek colonisation of Sicily and coastal regions across southern Italy from the 8th Century BC influenced DNA, and the genetic signature is still closely related to Greek populations today. The area was known as “Magna Graecia”, meaning “Great Greece”, forming the cultural basis for Roman civilisation. After Italy became a Roman territory, Sicily was the first province obtained by the Republic in 241 BC. From here, the Romans would expand and take the world by storm, eventually forming their vast and powerful empire.





Technical Note

Italian ancestry is on a cline, from Northern European-like in the north to sharing with Greek & other populations surrounding the Mediterranean in the south. The ancestry is highly variable and hence hard to represent geographically.
If you have Italian ancestry that you didn’t expect: Italy is well inferred when it is the only ancestry source. Italian mixtures are extremely difficult however because Italy itself is a mixture of several ancestries. If you are a mixture of Spanish and Greek, you may appear to have South-Italian-like ancestry. Similarly, if you are a mixture of French and German, you may appear to have North-Italian like ancestry. Finally, a small amount of North African ancestry in an otherwise European individual could be mistaken for Italian.
If you have Italian ancestry but it is not inferred as strongly as expected: Italian-British mixtures may appear as partially French. Southern-Italian ancestry is reconstructed with some Aegean ancestry. North-African and Turkish ancestry may be used to capture sharing of ancestors between Italians and people from across the Mediterranean.


Tuscany

The genetic mixture that roughly covers the area of present day Tuscany has been formed over thousands of years by migrations and movement. The rich archaeology in Tuscany reveals a deep timescale of human habitation across these lands. Habitation here was not just from our species - Tuscany was also likely occupied by the Neanderthals. Before even the Etruscans or Romans, Tuscany had advanced trading links with Minoans and Mycenaeans across the Aegean Sea, creating vital links in trade and development for the area.
Who were the Etruscans? The origins of this pre-Roman civilisation has been hotly debated by academics for over 2000 years, being investigated by early Greek writers such as Herodotus. Advancements in genetics have fueled this long standing argument. Some of the most recent studies suggest that the Etruscans did leave a genetic legacy in Tuscan DNA today, but only in isolated regions such as Casentino and Volterra. Whether or not Etruscans were local or migrants is a huge question, one genetics is beginning to answer. The Romans took over Etruscan civilisation in 351 BC, but were influenced by many of their creations, including art, gladiators, temples, hydraulics, religion and much more.





Technical Note

Italian ancestry is on a cline, from Northern European-like in the north to sharing with Greek & other populations surrounding the Mediterranean in the south. The ancestry is highly variable and hence hard to represent geographically.
If you have Italian ancestry that you didn’t expect: Italy is well inferred when it is the only ancestry source. Italian mixtures are extremely difficult however because Italy itself is a mixture of several ancestries. If you are a mixture of Spanish and Greek, you may appear to have South-Italian-like ancestry. Similarly, if you are a mixture of French and German, you may appear to have North-Italian like ancestry. Finally, a small amount of North African ancestry in an otherwise European individual could be mistaken for Italian.
If you have Italian ancestry but it is not inferred as strongly as expected: Italian-British mixtures may appear as partially French. Southern-Italian ancestry is reconstructed with some Aegean ancestry. North-African and Turkish ancestry may be used to capture sharing of ancestors between Italians and people from across the Mediterranean.


Iberian Peninsula

The area that came to be Spain and Portugal has a unique genetic heritage that encapsulates past migrations to the area. The genetic mixture here approximately matches the geographical boundaries of the Iberian Peninsula. Human habitation can be traced back to some of the earliest pioneers into Europe-- the Cro-Magnons. As a result, we have an abundance of cave paintings that give us insight into prehistoric life. New Stone Age migrations spread across Europe bringing new farming techniques as well as new genetics to what is now Spain and Portugal. It is thought that integration between these migrating farmers and the existing hunter gatherers occurred on a significant level, leaving a genetic legacy even today.
The first people to arrive after the Ice Age possibly came from North Africa and approximately 10% of the genetic mixture today originates here. However, some argue that some North African DNA possibly appeared much later during the Roman occupation, or even the Moorish occupation from 600AD. The very name “Iberian” is a product of the Roman occupation, who named the place and people after the river Iber. Latin evolved into modern day Spanish and Portuguese, solidifying the Roman legacy through language. The Mediterranean pathways were a hub for trade, with Greek, Phoenician and Carthaginian voyagers settling and founding trading colonies across the coast.


Sardinia

An island in isolation never fails to present its own unique and exciting genetic and archaeological history, and Sardinia is no exception. The genetic signature covers the island of Sardinia and partly extends into the neighbouring French island of Corsica. The solitude of the island is reflected in the modern genetic signature, which is different from the rest of Europe. Although there is some evidence of human habitation before the New Stone Age, it is thought that the most significant migration into Sardinia came from Neolithic farmers that were moving across Southern Europe from around 6000 BC. Recent studies have estimated that up to 80% of the Sardinian ancestry today can be traced back to these first farming colonists, and it has been found that Sardinians have the most Neolithic farmer DNA of any other population in Europe. The oldest mummified man in Europe was found in the Italian Alps, but DNA testing has shown him to be most genetically similar to the modern Sardinian population.
Many people living in Sardinia have traces of Italian DNA. This may be in part due to the migration and colonisation of the Romans in 238 BC, when Sardinia became a very Latinised island. There is an exception with the tribes of Barbagia who adamantly refused the Roman occupation, with their resistance being aided by the mountainous region they inhabited. The languages spoken today act as a living legacy to the Roman occupation across Sardinia, having retained many latin elements.


West Balkans

The West Balkan genetic signature covers the area of present day Croatia, but also extends into parts of Serbia, Slovenia and Montenegro. Some of the early pioneers who ventured out of Africa gradually made their way across Europe and into parts of the West Balkans approximately 40,000 years ago, and appear to have survived the harsh Ice Age in this region.The genetic makeup of the region was influenced by New Stone Age migrations. These people introduced farming techniques to the area and appear to have integrated and intermixed with the existing hunter gatherer populations of the West Balkans. Today, both the DNA from the hunter gatherer population and the migratory Neolithic farmers is observable.
The West Balkans are a place of cultural and genetic diversity due to thousands of years of trade, cultural transmission and migration. From Slavic migrations to Roman occupations, the West Balkans has been a central hub for the movement of people and ideas. Indo-European peoples known as the Illyrians ruled the lands from 1000 BC. They resisted Roman force for some time, but by 168 BC the Roman Empire had absorbed the West Balkans and formed the province of Dalmatia. In the 7th Century, Slavic migrations further influenced genetics, culture and linguistics of the West Balkans.


England and Wales

After the Ice Age began to end, people began to travel into England and Wales from Central and Western Europe. The environment had become more hospitable, slowly changing from icy tundra to a warmer, wetter and more inhabitable land. People followed the migrating animals, which made up a significant part of the diet of these hunter gatherers along with plants and berries. This was the normal way of life until a further wave of migrations from Europe changed everything with the introduction of farming. This initiated the New Stone Age and it was during this time that the famous Stonehenge was built - although situated in Salisbury, the stone has been found to originate in Wales!
The Iron Age brought another migration of people from Europe who are known by their Beaker style of pottery. At this time, England and Wales was made up of multiple tribes that had a chiefdom structure. The Romans invaded from 43 AD, and many of these tribes tried to resist the Roman occupation. However, by 80 AD, both England and Wales fell under Roman control. Subsequent conquests and invasions targeted England and Wales. The Anglo Saxons spread across England from the 5th century, and the Vikings later reached regions across England and Wales. The famous Battle of Hastings in 1066 marked the beginning of the Norman conquest, taking hold of England and Wales.


Scandinavia

The genetic mixture of Scandinavia is strongest across Denmark, Norway and Sweden, but also possibly stretches into parts of Germany. The story of this land begins with the retreat of the last ice age around 12,000 years ago. As Scandinavia became more habitable, people began to populate the lands. They migrated into what is now Denmark from northern Europe in pursuit of migrating reindeer that followed the warming climate. They would have eaten these reindeer as well as plants and marine resources. Scandinavia has an abundance of impressive rock art that dates from this time - images including reindeer, bears and whales were either carved or painted onto the rocks. Later, people from northern Europe moved into Denmark, eventually spreading the idea of farming into Norway and Sweden around 6000 years ago.
The northerly location of Scandinavia likely had an influence over the genetics found here, as it was more difficult to invade than other locations in Europe. For example, the Romans never conquered them despite the size of the ever expanding Roman Empire. When you think of Scandinavian history, the Vikings likely come to mind. These people were believers of gods of thunder and war and used their skills in boat building and navigation to expand their lands through maritime voyages.


Sindh

Unknown to many people, the southwestern Pakistani province of Sindh was once the heart of one of the world’s first great civilisations. Today, all that remains of the Indus Valley Civilisation are windswept and long abandoned cities, only visible through decades of archaeological work. With no enduring monuments left behind like the towering pyramids of Egypt to speak of, the original inhabitants of Sindh still hold many secrets. 3700 years have passed since their great civilisation disappeared, and since then many people from across Asia have shaped the genetic and cultural makeup of this ancient region.
The gateway between Iran and India, the genetic signature of Sindh today is most similar to the nearby Pashtun and Punjabi people. Here, an expansive history of migration and invasion can be read through the DNA of the region’s inhabitants. The original people of the Indus Valley Civilisation probably reached this area via a southern coastal route out of Africa, and after their collapse, a group dubbed the ‘Ancestral North Indians’ appear to have moved in from further west, intermingling with pre-existing populations. More recently, Greek, Indian, Persian, Mongol and British armies have all claimed this region for themselves. Today, the Sindhi live in Pakistan alongside many other related ethnic groups that call the country their home, including Pashtuns, Balochis, and Kalash.



Cautious:

South Italy-related ancestry

This is a confidence group for South Italy ancestry with medium spread. It includes South Italy, Tuscany and Aegean populations. As an intermediate sized population grouping, it is likely that your ancestry includes all three populations, or your ancestry from these regions is small and the exact origin uncertain.
This genetic mixture appears to roughly cover the area of present day Greece and the Aegean Islands. Greece is often referred to as the cradle of Western civilisation, paving the way for great developments in medicine, architecture, politics and more. As the founders of democracy, the ancient Greeks changed the lives of future peoples across the globe. This was the first place in Europe to be introduced to farming (most likely from Anatolia), and the genetics of the area act as a living legacy to this. Farming appeared by 7000 BC, and studies have suggested that around 60% of DNA in the Aegean area today may be derived from these Neolithic inhabitants from the Near East, who intermixed with the existing hunter gatherer populations.
This genetic signature was influenced by early events, such as the absorption of the Minoans in Crete by the Mycenaeans from the mainland in c.1500 BC. From Pythagoras to Plato, the ancient Greeks have a rich history of leaders, battles, science and philosophy. Alexander the Great ruled the Aegean and spread Greek culture and genetics across Western Asian. The Aegean sea was a key route for trade and development until Greece was conquered by the Romans after the Battle of Corinth in 146 BC. From the Persians to the Ottomans, outside cultural and genetic influences at varying degrees occurred throughout the history of the Aegean.
This genetic signature is strongest in the areas that came to be known as southern and central Italy and spreads across all of present day Sicily. Over many thousands of years, this central mediterranean location has acted as a catalyst for creating a diverse society which is reflected in genetic variation. From the Greeks to the Normans, the area became a hot spot for conquest, invasion and trade. The region was central to the movement of objects, people and ideas, thus it is no surprise that genetic admixture occurred over the years. Human habitation increased when the Ice Age began to end around 12,000 years ago and the lands became more forgiving. Despite living around coastal regions, these hunter gatherers appear to have eaten little in the way of seafood and favoured terrestrial prey such as deer.
The Greek colonisation of Sicily and coastal regions across southern Italy from the 8th Century BC influenced DNA, and the genetic signature is still closely related to Greek populations today. The area was known as “Magna Graecia”, meaning “Great Greece”, forming the cultural basis for Roman civilisation. After Italy became a Roman territory, Sicily was the first province obtained by the Republic in 241 BC. From here, the Romans would expand and take the world by storm, eventually forming their vast and powerful empire.
The genetic mixture that roughly covers the area of present day Tuscany has been formed over thousands of years by migrations and movement. The rich archaeology in Tuscany reveals a deep timescale of human habitation across these lands. Habitation here was not just from our species - Tuscany was also likely occupied by the Neanderthals. Before even the Etruscans or Romans, Tuscany had advanced trading links with Minoans and Mycenaeans across the Aegean Sea, creating vital links in trade and development for the area.
Who were the Etruscans? The origins of this pre-Roman civilisation has been hotly debated by academics for over 2000 years, being investigated by early Greek writers such as Herodotus. Advancements in genetics have fueled this long standing argument. Some of the most recent studies suggest that the Etruscans did leave a genetic legacy in Tuscan DNA today, but only in isolated regions such as Casentino and Volterra. Whether or not Etruscans were local or migrants is a huge question, one genetics is beginning to answer. The Romans took over Etruscan civilisation in 351 BC, but were influenced by many of their creations, including art, gladiators, temples, hydraulics, religion and much more.


North Italy-related ancestry

This is a confidence group for North Italy ancestry with small spread. It includes North Italy and France populations. As it is the smallest possible grouping for North Italy and surrounding ancestry, it is very likely that your true ancestry falls inside one or both of these two populations.
Italy has been a hub for genetic admixture over many millennia. The location connects the peninsula to the rest of Europe, allowing for migration and population expansion. Caves, such as the Fumane cave in the north towards the Alps, provided shelter and refuge for Neanderthals and early humans. The Alpine region near the Italian-Austrian border was where Europe’s oldest mummified body was found - Otzi the “ice man”, who lived around 5000 years ago.
North-Central European DNA can be found in the genetics of the North Italian population today. This is thought to be due to the closer proximity of the north to Europe, as Southern Italian populations typically showcase much less of this signature. Attempts have been made to pinpoint this genetic change, and studies suggest the influx of European DNA most likely occurred during the “migration period” from 476 AD after the Roman Era. Admixture could possibly have occurred earlier though, when Celtic tribes pushed the boundaries across the Alps and into Northern Italy from 400 BC. The Roman Era is no doubt one of the most famous periods in Italy’s history. The Gauls and Etruscans fought against the Roman conquests, but by 264 BC, the whole of the north had fallen at the Romans feet.
This genetic mixture approximately covers the area that is now France, which showcases a colourful history of migration, invasion and expansion. From Western European tribes to invading Vikings, France has been far from isolated. This location has an exciting past, and there is evidence of it being inhabited by another human species - the Neanderthal. Until the New Stone Age, the inhabitants of what is now France would have been nomadic hunter gatherers, foraging and hunting to survive. With the great expansion of people east to west across Europe came a great transition to this hunter gatherer lifestyle - farming.
From the Iron Age until the Roman conquest, what we now know as France was ruled by the Gauls - a series of tribes that were dominant across what is now France, Belgium and Germany. The Gauls became Romanised after the conquests of Caesar from 58 BC. The Gaulish language diminished and was replaced by Latin, which would ultimately form the basis for the French language spoken today. The Germanic Frank tribes moved in, overpowering Roman Gaul. The Viking settlements of the 10th and 11th centuries led to the creation of Normandy, serving as a base for voyage and expansion.


Northwestern Europe-related ancestry

This is a confidence group for England and Wales ancestry with large spread. It includes England and Wales, France, Germanic and Orkney Islands populations. As it is the largest possible grouping for England and Wales and surrounding ancestry, you will likely be assigned this if either your ancestry from this region is both small and uncertain, or your ancestry is large but has multiple distinct sources from the region.
After the Ice Age began to end, people began to travel into England and Wales from Central and Western Europe. The environment had become more hospitable, slowly changing from icy tundra to a warmer, wetter and more inhabitable land. People followed the migrating animals, which made up a significant part of the diet of these hunter gatherers along with plants and berries. This was the normal way of life until a further wave of migrations from Europe changed everything with the introduction of farming. This initiated the New Stone Age and it was during this time that the famous Stonehenge was built - although situated in Salisbury, the stone has been found to originate in Wales!
The Iron Age brought another migration of people from Europe who are known by their Beaker style of pottery. At this time, England and Wales was made up of multiple tribes that had a chiefdom structure. The Romans invaded from 43 AD, and many of these tribes tried to resist the Roman occupation. However, by 80 AD, both England and Wales fell under Roman control. Subsequent conquests and invasions targeted England and Wales. The Anglo Saxons spread across England from the 5th century, and the Vikings later reached regions across England and Wales. The famous Battle of Hastings in 1066 marked the beginning of the Norman conquest, taking hold of England and Wales.
This genetic signature roughly covers the areas of modern day Germany and Denmark, and extends into parts of southern Sweden. The area is home to one of Europe's most exciting discoveries - the first Neanderthal fossils. Neanderthals are named after the Neander Valley where the fossils were found. Modern humans are thought to have interbred with the Neanderthals before their ultimate extinction, and today between 2 - 4% of DNA here is of Neanderthal origin. From the end of the Ice Age, more humans began to migrate across Europe into Germany and Denmark. The warming climate allowed them to exploit the flourishing flora and fauna for food. They lived as hunter gatherers until another migration across Europe introduced farming, initiating the New Stone Age. At this time, there is evidence of violence and conflict such as the recent discovery of a mass grave of 26 individuals whose remains show evidence of broken limbs and head trauma.
During the Bronze and Iron Ages, the area was made up of scattered tribes organised into chiefdoms. They occupied the lands at the time of the Romans from 6 AD. This location was home to the Angles, Saxons and Jutes, who went on to expand new Kingdoms, migrating across Europe and North Africa. In the 5th Century, the greatly feared Huns invaded - it is thought that this is one reason behind the migration of Saxons into Britain!
This genetic mixture approximately covers the area that is now France, which showcases a colourful history of migration, invasion and expansion. From Western European tribes to invading Vikings, France has been far from isolated. This location has an exciting past, and there is evidence of it being inhabited by another human species - the Neanderthal. Until the New Stone Age, the inhabitants of what is now France would have been nomadic hunter gatherers, foraging and hunting to survive. With the great expansion of people east to west across Europe came a great transition to this hunter gatherer lifestyle - farming.
From the Iron Age until the Roman conquest, what we now know as France was ruled by the Gauls - a series of tribes that were dominant across what is now France, Belgium and Germany. The Gauls became Romanised after the conquests of Caesar from 58 BC. The Gaulish language diminished and was replaced by Latin, which would ultimately form the basis for the French language spoken today. The Germanic Frank tribes moved in, overpowering Roman Gaul. The Viking settlements of the 10th and 11th centuries led to the creation of Normandy, serving as a base for voyage and expansion.
Orkney can boast a rich and exciting archaeological history from the Neolithic Era and beyond. Prior to this, there is scarce evidence for human habitation, but small finds can tell us that people were living here 9000 years ago. The coastal nature of the islands provided an ideal fishing spot for hunter gatherers. The Neolithic Era marks the beginning of a rich and colourful array of evidence for some of the earliest farming communities. Skara Brae is arguably one of the most intriguing discoveries in North West Europe, giving us a preserved example of the housing style of these first farmers.
The islands are famous for connections to the Vikings - the very name ‘Orkney’ is Old Norse for ‘The Seal Islands’. There is much debate about the nature of the Vikings. Were they peaceful settlers who integrated with society, or were they bloodthirsty warriors looking for new lands? The likely answer is both. DNA shows that the Vikings did not wipe out the previous populations, as only 25% Norse DNA can be found in the genetic signature today. Many were peaceful farmers and many were warriors on an expedition to find new lands. Much like the very first settlers, the Vikings utilised the coastal locations of the islands, not just for food, but instead for raiding, trading and expanding their power.


Northeast Europe-related ancestry

This is a confidence group for Northeast Europe ancestry with large spread. It includes Northeast Europe, Pannonian Cluster, Mordovia and East Balkans populations. As it is the largest possible grouping for Northeast Europe and surrounding ancestry, you will likely be assigned this if either your ancestry from this region is both small and uncertain, or your ancestry is large but has multiple distinct sources from the region.
The North East Europe cluster corresponds roughly to the modern territories of Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, eastern Czechoslovakia, and northern Slovakia. A land of contrasts, this area stretches from the Baltic to the Black Sea, and is home to prehistoric forests, jagged mountain ranges, and undulating plains. North East Europe has always been a gateway from the Eurasian steppe into Europe, and has seen countless mass nomadic migrations across the millennia. Many of these ancient people never left, and instead were absorbed and integrated into this vibrant cultural and genetic melting pot.
The boundaries of this cluster are primarily defined by the Slavic migrations in the first millennium AD. As such, similar signatures may be found in both Western Russia and parts of the Balkans. These were not the only people to historically settle the region however. The ancient and innovative Kurgan people that probably migrated here from north of the Black Sea are thought to have introduced horse riding, chariots, and even the Indo-European language family that is now spoken from Iceland through to India! More recently, there is also genetic evidence of the Mongolian expansion into the region. This cluster therefore has a global heritage, with DNA signatures that originate from many different places and people across the Eurasian landmass.
The Pannonian cluster covers present day Hungary, but also crosses the borders of Croatia, Slovakia and Austria. The discovery of stone tools here shows that after the Ice Age ended people lived here seasonally. When the climate warmed, some people migrated north in pursuit of the migrating reindeer herds, while others stayed and adapted to the changing landscape. It wasn’t until the introduction of farming from Anatolia in the New Stone Age that this way of life began to change. Genetic research has suggested that these first farming migrants settled and intermixed with the existing hunter gatherers.
During the Iron Age, tribes were scattered across the area. The Romans swept through the lands and dominated these tribal groups from 15 BC to 378 AD. It was at this time that the Romans formed the province of Pannonia, which spanned across Hungary and parts of Croatia, Serbia and Austria. The Magyar undertook a large migration and takeover of the Pannonian Basin in the 9th century. They traveled across vast landscapes by horseback from the east in a similar fashion to the Huns who previously conquered the lands in the 5th century. The Magyar possibly contribute to the genetic signature of the region to a degree, but left more of a cultural and linguistic legacy. This is perhaps due to DNA diversification through widespread intermarriage with Magyar populations and subsequent migrations.
Politics has obscured the histories and origins of the populations of the East Balkans over the years, as people have attempted to use archaeology to create boundaries between Bulgaria and Romania. However, this genetic signature spans across present day Romania, Bulgaria and parts of Moldova and Serbia. What we know is that humans inhabited the lands from around 8000 BC, sometime after the end of the Ice Age. From the New Stone Age to the Iron Age, hunter gatherers eventually transformed into farmers and metalworkers - migrations across Europe can be thanked for such technological advancements. Bulgaria is home to Europe’s oldest known prehistoric town, which was created over 1000 years before the birth of Greek civilisation.
From the Bronze Age, what came to be Bulgaria was occupied by the Thracian tribes whilst present day Romania was dominated by the Dacians. It is strongly thought that the Thracians and Dacians were closely related groups, demonstrating an ancient link between Bulgaria and Romania. The tribes were eventually absorbed and dispersed by the Roman, Greek and Persian colonisations. Despite originating in prehistory, these tribes leave a legacy in culture and tradition, such as the masked Bulgarian Kukeri. The name ‘Bulgaria’ was attributed by the Bulgars who migrated from Western Eurasia during the Great Migratory Period and formed the first Bulgarian kingdom.
This genetic mixture approximately covers the area that is now Mordovia. The early tribal people of Mordovia are probably descendants of the Finno-Ugric speaking tribes that were found across areas such as Russia, Finland and Hungary. Two groups emerged in Mordovia from this common tribal group approximately 3000 years ago - the Ezyras and Mokshas. The Ezyras and Mokshas languages also became less similar and began to differentiate from one another. What came to be Mordovia experienced migrations of people from as far as the Mediterranean who were looking to trade the precious metals that were mined from the Ural Mountains since the Bronze Age.
Mordovia and the rest of Russia was subjected to the Mongol invasions from the 13th Century. The Mongols set out for Russia under the pretence of a peaceful joining of forces against the Cumans, but they were not trusted and instead killed by the Russians. This fuelled a determined invasion of the Mongols, who joined with many of the Mokshas against Russia and Poland. After the Mokshas refused to fight the Germans, the Mongols turned against them, leaving them to flee back to Mordovia or be killed. By the 16th century, the Mordovian people were absorbed under Russian Tsarist rule, but folklore and cultural identity of the Mokshas and Ezyras still remains in the rural regions today.

[PRAETOR]

Ι have see the descriptions. I have the same thoughts as you.I just believe oracle Gedmatch is more accurate... South Italy was a part of Magna Graecia.

[Yetos]

@ praetor

is your father from area among Τυρναβος to Αγια?
or from around Belestino?

or Καλαμπακα Μετεωρα

[PRAETOR]

Hello my friend! Volos Pelion!!

[Dibran]

Ι have see the descriptions. I have the same thoughts as you.I just believe oracle Gedmatch is more accurate... South Italy was a part of Magna Graecia.

They're all accurate in different ways. It all depends how components are grouped in each company. For instance "Balkan" on 23andme is based on Albanians and South Slavs, so I score 94 percent. However, Myheritage includes Albanians in the "Greek" component, and South Slavs in the Balkan component. So, On that for instance, I get 16 Balkan, and 76 Greeks and 8 Italian. Gedmatch is like a database of testers, and your results are usually best fits(as opposed to literal ancestry). For example, if there is no Albanian reference on Gedmatch, I get a mixture of Greek Thessaly, and Tuscan.

[PRAETOR]

You are right. It has to do with the algorithms..but it doesn't make sense all the time.

[Ygorcs]

Thank you very much, for you responce! It seems possible, Thessaly is very close to Greek Macedonia so hundrend year back maybe some of my ancestry is Macedonian.. I thing this mixture goes very back in time beause my father for sure doesn't look like Indian. My Halpogroup is H-M82 and subclade is H-M2972

Mate, your father don't need to look Indian in order to be a direct descendant of a Romani man hundreds of years back. I know Brazilian friends of mine who are grandsons and grand-daughters to black, African-like people... and yet they are very white with straight to wavy hair. And that is only 2 generations later, not 20 or 30 generations ago.

As I previously told you, you need to seriously separate your AUTOSOMAL DNA from your Y-DNA. If your father descends from a Romani man who got assimilated into Greek people 700-800 years ago, he may not have more than 2% of Romani-like DNA, and that is already assuing that that Romani ancestor was 100% pure Romani, and not himself mixed along the long long migration from India to Greece, which is very likely. His looks won't be determined by 1-2% of DNA.

I maintain and insist: you can only know more about your direct paternal ancestor if you have more details about the subclades of your H-M82 haplogroup and their specific geographic spread. Looking at your autosomal DNA tell us nothing but the fact that you may have very little DNA left from that paternal ancestor.

[binx]

As you see on the 11% of Iranian ancestry at the cautious mode is listed as North-Central Italy related ancestry.

I doubt that Iranian ancestry at the cautious mode is listed as North-Central Italy related ancestry, it's just a coincidence.

[PRAETOR]

@Binx Attachment 9639 Attachment 9641 Attachment 9640

open the attachments before

North Central Italy-related ancestry

This is a confidence group for North Central Italy ancestry with large spread. It includes North Central Italy, Sardinia, Iran and Aegean populations. As it is the largest possible grouping for North Central Italy and surrounding ancestry, you will likely be assigned this if either your ancestry from this region is both small and uncertain, or your ancestry is large but has multiple distinct sources from the region.
The North-Central Italy cluster expands across Tuscany to the Alpine region. The area has experienced an admixture of people over many thousands of years due to a multitude of factors including close proximity to the rest of Europe across the Alps, the expansion and fall of the Roman Empire and even migrations of European Celtic tribes. Archaeological evidence shows that Neanderthals utilised the caves scattered across northern Italy, such as the Fumane cave in Verona.
Home to the Etruscans, these lands were a stronghold in trade and exchange routes even before the expansion of the Roman Empire. Italy’s proximity to Greece and the rest of Europe made it a hub for the movement of people and objects. The Etruscans created the foundation of what would become the Roman Empire, developing their civilisation and creating tombs, art, architecture, religion and gladiatorial combat. Their religion involved ritual practice and the worship of multiple deities. The Romans would go on to adopt many such practices. Subsequent migrations and invasions most likely influenced the genetic signature today, such as the Germanic Lombard occupation from the 6th Century. Italy was subsequently at the heart of the Renaissance, influencing art and science all over Europe. ​
An island in isolation never fails to present its own unique and exciting genetic and archaeological history, and Sardinia is no exception. The genetic signature covers the island of Sardinia and partly extends into the neighbouring French island of Corsica. The solitude of the island is reflected in the modern genetic signature, which is different from the rest of Europe. Although there is some evidence of human habitation before the New Stone Age, it is thought that the most significant migration into Sardinia came from Neolithic farmers that were moving across Southern Europe from around 6000 BC. Recent studies have estimated that up to 80% of the Sardinian ancestry today can be traced back to these first farming colonists, and it has been found that Sardinians have the most Neolithic farmer DNA of any other population in Europe. The oldest mummified man in Europe was found in the Italian Alps, but DNA testing has shown him to be most genetically similar to the modern Sardinian population.
Many people living in Sardinia have traces of Italian DNA. This may be in part due to the migration and colonisation of the Romans in 238 BC, when Sardinia became a very Latinised island. There is an exception with the tribes of Barbagia who adamantly refused the Roman occupation, with their resistance being aided by the mountainous region they inhabited. The languages spoken today act as a living legacy to the Roman occupation across Sardinia, having retained many latin elements.
This genetic mixture appears to roughly cover the area of present day Greece and the Aegean Islands. Greece is often referred to as the cradle of Western civilisation, paving the way for great developments in medicine, architecture, politics and more. As the founders of democracy, the ancient Greeks changed the lives of future peoples across the globe. This was the first place in Europe to be introduced to farming (most likely from Anatolia), and the genetics of the area act as a living legacy to this. Farming appeared by 7000 BC, and studies have suggested that around 60% of DNA in the Aegean area today may be derived from these Neolithic inhabitants from the Near East, who intermixed with the existing hunter gatherer populations.
This genetic signature was influenced by early events, such as the absorption of the Minoans in Crete by the Mycenaeans from the mainland in c.1500 BC. From Pythagoras to Plato, the ancient Greeks have a rich history of leaders, battles, science and philosophy. Alexander the Great ruled the Aegean and spread Greek culture and genetics across Western Asian. The Aegean sea was a key route for trade and development until Greece was conquered by the Romans after the Battle of Corinth in 146 BC. From the Persians to the Ottomans, outside cultural and genetic influences at varying degrees occurred throughout the history of the Aegean.
The Iranian genetic cluster covers modern day Iran and Turkmenistan, a region with a fascinating ancient heritage harkening back across millennia. Homeland of the many incarnations of the Persian Empire from the Achaemenids to the Safavids, the beating heart of the Silk Road has also seen Greeks, Arabs, Mongols, Turks, and Indians invade, settle, and intermingle with its Iranian inhabitants. The Fertile Crescent at the westernmost part of Iran was one of the few places where agriculture was invented, setting in motion the transition from hunter gatherer societies to settled villages, cities and states across Central and West Eurasia.
The major event responsible for shaping the genetic landscape of the Iranian plateau occurred approximately 2500-3000 years ago, when the Indo-Iranian peoples migrated south and east from the steppes. These were an offshoot of the same people who migrated across much of Europe at a similar time, and explains why nearly all languages spoken from Ireland to India (including Iran) are part of the same family. Until the Turkic and Mongol expansions, much of Central Asia was dominated by Iranian nomads, whilst their settled cousins further south went on to found dynasties and cities that are still famous to this day. Their empires have left traces of the Iranian genetic signature in areas as far as Turkey in the west and India in the east.

[PRAETOR]

I agree Ygorcs. Living DNA gave me the phylogenetic tree but i don't know if there are any informations about subclade H-M2972. I will try in the recent future the ftdna test.

[Yetos]

Hello my friend! Volos Pelion!!

Ι can not help you there.
It is not consider an area with huge mixing,
and is pecculiar cause Roma people do not prefer high levels above sea,
neither the sea,
surely it is very very old, but I can not figure when entered area
but from the results, it must be very back in time,
and I suggest check how deep the analysis is
and how much some DYS fit.

[Dibran]

Ι can not help you there.
It is not consider an area with huge mixing,
and is pecculiar cause Roma people do not prefer high levels above sea,
neither the sea,
surely it is very very old, but I can not figure when entered area
but from the results, it must be very back in time,
and I suggest check how deep the analysis is
and how much some DYS fit.

If it is old, it could only have arrived with the Persians, or via migration from Asia to Macedonia during Alexanders rule. If it is more recent but not Roma, it could have even been picked up by Huns or Avars. Avars invaded Greece. My own line most probably arrived with the Avaro-Slavic tribe Baiounitai or the Goths. Then got assimilated into Byzantium and then Albania somewhere along the line. All it takes is a few generations(100 years or so) to replace autosomes from intermixing.

[Yetos]

If it is old, it could only have arrived with the Persians, or via migration from Asia to Macedonia during Alexanders rule. If it is more recent but not Roma, it could have even been picked up by Huns or Avars. Avars invaded Greece. My own line most probably arrived with the Avaro-Slavic tribe Baiounitai or the Goths. Then got assimilated into Byzantium and then Albania somewhere along the line. All it takes is a few generations(100 years or so) to replace autosomes from intermixing.

indeed
if he wants that info he must search more
and compare with other M-82

Even Turkic populations have some of the Haplo.