Genetic traces of the Spanish Occupation of the Low Countries?

[Angela]

republics in Italy created the renaissance and not the areas ruled by monarchist goverments be they foreign or not

That wasn't always the case. The Medici were autocrats, as just one example. So were the Doges.

It's true that hundreds of years of foreign occupation ground us down.

 

[alexfritz]

Your first sentence is absolutely incorrect. As to the rest, I can't make out if there's any larger meaning there.

"The Italian Renaissance (Italian: Rinascimento [rinaʃʃiˈmento]) was the earliest manifestation of the general European Renaissance, a period of great cultural change and achievement that began in Italy during the 14th century (Trecento) and lasted until the 17th century (Seicento), marking the transition between Medieval and Modern Europe."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_RenaissanceThe earliest dates I've seen are 1330-1550, or 1330-1527.

The Italian Wars "often referred to as the Great Italian Wars or the Great Wars of Italy and sometimes as the Habsburg–Valois Wars or the Renaissance Wars, were a series of conflicts from 1494 to 1559."https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_WarsSee the overlap?

Plus, my point was that great advancements can be made even in the midst of turmoil and war.

Italy in the trecento:
The fourteenth century in Italy was cataclysmic. This was the time of the plague (documented by Boccaccio), political schism, and perpetual conflict.

Plagues in Italy-
"In January 1348, the Black Plague entered Genoa and soon spread like wildfire throughout the Italian Peninsula , as people fled the coastal towns in search of safety, unaware they were already carrying the disease (or carrying the fleas in goods such as textiles). As people continued to flee further inland so did the plague. A few weeks later, it infiltrated Pisa, and then spread with alarming speed through Tuscany to Florence, Siena and Rome."

"When the plague hit Florence,it hit hard. The thriving city, which relied so heavily on foreign trade, was brought to its knees. It is estimated nearly 60% of the population perished. Camps were set up outside the city walls for people who were showing any sign of the disease. So many were dying that mass graves were dug and possessions burnt, before so much as a blessing. Italian writer Giovanni Boccaccio who survived in the city was inspired to pen his experience into a ficticious novel, The Decameron."

Military conflict was a constant:
"Constant conflict was the fate of these vigorous urban societies. In addition to the internal struggle, and the struggles for independence from emperor and pope, there was the constant fighting of the cities against one another. They fought for commercial supremacy, control of trade routes, access to seaports, territorial expansion, and possession of natural resources; like their internal conflicts, these intercity wars and rivalries were likely to be prolonged, bitter, and ruthless. Reference has been made to the commercial rivalry of Genoa, Pisa, and Venice. Florence fought for centuries for control of Pisa and was frequently engaged in war with other Tuscan neighbors and rivals, such as Lucca and Siena."

The Angevins:

"The alliance of the papacy with the French crown had repercussions that were felt beyond southern Italy and Sicily. The Angevins saw themselves as champions of the Church and the popes became more and more dependent on the French monarchy for support. Increasingly, Italians felt distanced from a Church so heavily controlled by French interests and took exception to foreign influence. The situation worsened during the residence of the papal court in Avignon during the Avignonese Captivity (1308-1378) and the attitude of resentment was especially evident in the Papal States of central Italy.The Papal States stretched across the middle of the Italian peninsula and provided agricultural and taxation support for the papacy. The region was exceptionally diverse culturally and a belligerent nobility made the area difficult to control even with a strong administrative presence at Rome. The absence of the papacy during the Avignonese Captivity combined with the decimation of the Plague, leaving the capital ravaged. Lawless brigands terrorized citizens and travellers alike throughout the area and wolves even roamed the streets of the city. Without a strong unifed government in Rome, central Italy was left to the mercy of princelings who used swords to carve out their own territories.


The continuous political strife and warfare drained the economy and exhausted the population of Italy. Civil unrest frequently burst into open violence and rioting as cities rebelled against feudal landholders over rights of self-government and taxation. The conflict between the papal Guelphs and the imperial Ghibellines was to the benefit of many cities and by playing these two factions against one another, civic governments were able to organize and squirm out from under the direct control of either. The ideologies of the parties were often retained but tailored to suit the ideals of the new communes and, although regularly labelled as either Guelph or Ghibelline, many towns shifted their allegiances with the political winds."
http://www.faculty.umb.edu/gary_zab...e. etc/Philosophers/End/FRAMES/cityframe.html

Italy in the cuatro cento:

The Wars in Lombardy-1423-1454
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wars_in_Lombardy

Peace of Lodi-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lodi

the rest, fits with the op;

 

[Angela]

the rest, fits with the op and post pavia 1525 milan/naples; your post is a bit cryptic too, but the plague for one is the reason for introducing the mercenary system in the italian states, initially foreign (hawkwood) than and throughout the 15th local (barbiano); with the anjou i meant the problems that began with JoannaII(naples) death and CharlesVII(france) ambitions/revenge and than LouisXII/FrancisI(france) efforts in lombardy based on their legitimacy claims as spawns of valentina visconti, but lombardy from charlemagne>napoloen was an imperial fief belonging at that time to emperor CharlesV; and the point is as others pointed out before, nothing fruitful came from these wars, other than the revolutionary tactic 'pike and shot' of gonzalo de cordoba cerignola1503, and centric/church rule is not the most dynamic;

Great, although I don't see how this minutia changes anything or invalidates my assertion. It's just more detail.

This is a simple exercise in rhetoric. Proposition: Wars, natural disasters, disease, don't necessarily stop cultural achievements and innovations.

Next paragraphs: examples of the aforementioned in a precisely dated "Renaissance" framework whose achievements don't need to be enumerated.

Like I said: simple. No need to clutter it up.

 

[alexfritz]

Great, and how is this relevant to my assertion and your disagreement?

what assertion? if you were asserting that post-wars italy was the center of innovation than yes i disagree, that was mostly pre-wars italy; as for this in specifics #35 "France and Spain did conquer and occupy large parts of Italy, although Spanish rule was more successful and lasted longer" that from a-z its just beside the point and not accurate;

 

[Sile]

the renaissance was pre italian-wars, after the italian-wars (pavia1525) which was hereditary at root (anjou claims / valois(visconti) claims) the large parts of italy(milan/naples) under PhilipII were than mostly/solely the supply of armory(milan) and soldiers/mercenaries(milan/naples) as the 'Army of Flanders' relied heavily on the so called foreign contingents from 1565-97 the 'Army of Flanders' J.Glete2002p.85 consisted of 40 tercios 22Spanish/18Italian and 47 regiments 28German/19Walloon in 1621 of the 47 tercios I.Lopez2012p.7 seven were Spanish the rest (40) being Walloon and Italian with regiments being German, Burgundian and Irish; other example Nördlingen 1634 the 12-13000 infantry in the army of Leganes 7-8000 infantry was naples/lombardy, after nördlingen that army marched into flanders;

Pre Fornovo.....Milan was still independent from france or Spain

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fornovo

after the italians wars .....spain controlled Genoa and Milan and had the spanish road ( 1567-1601) basically until the Grison conflict of 1601....where France , savoy and Venice in alliance stopped Spain and Austria uniting their empires ......the Spanish road was closed then and with this the bulk of italian troops under spain to the netherlands

 

[Angela]

what assertion? if you were asserting that post-wars italy was the center of innovation than yes i disagree, that was mostly pre-wars italy; as for this in specifics #35 "France and Spain did conquer and occupy large parts of Italy, although Spanish rule was more successful and lasted longer" that from a-z its just beside the point and not accurate;

What don't you get? The Renaissance, in the opinion of most historians, is dated from 1330-1550. Some hold it went on a little longer until the end of that century. The fact that you weren't aware of that or were speaking sloppily doesn't change that fact. I clearly outlined how in the 1300s, 1400s and 1500s Italy was the scene of political turmoil, war, both internal and from invasions, and how pestilence added to the disruption socially and economically.

I am not just talking about the Italian Wars, but even if I were, they span the period from 1494 to 1559, so, within the Renaissance period. There's just no question or ambiguity about it. Is there some problem with English of which I'm not aware?

The rest is just superfluous detail and written, if I may say so in an extremely confusing style.

As for the following, it's absurd:

Angela: France and Spain did conquer and occupy large parts of Italy, although Spanish rule was more successful and lasted longer

Alex Fritz: that from a-z its just beside the point and not accurate

How is that beside the point when part of the discussion, which I was exploring with Bicicleur, is that foreign occupation can inhibit creativity and destroy economic prosperity, especially if it goes on for a long time? How on earth could you say that Spanish rule of parts of Italy didn't last a long time? By successful, I didn't mean successful for Italy, of course, but successful from the Spanish point of view in that they were able to maintain it.

You know what, don't bother answering. It isn't worth it.

 

[davef]

I think you'd be a bit easier to understand if you punctuate your sentences Alex, just my 2 pennies.

 

[alexfritz]

What don't you get? The Renaissance, in the opinion of most historians, is dated from 1330-1550. Some hold it went on a little longer until the end of that century. The fact that you weren't aware of that or were speaking sloppily doesn't change that fact. I clearly outlined how in the 1300s, 1400s and 1500s Italy was the scene of political turmoil, war, both internal and from invasions, and how pestilence added to the disruption socially and economically.

I am not just talking about the Italian Wars, but even if I were, they span the period from 1494 to 1559, so, within the Renaissance period. There's just no question or ambiguity about it. Is there some problem with English of which I'm not aware

The rest is just superfluous detail and written, if I may say so in an extremely confusing style.

i understood that part and keep the answering short, its apples and oranges;

As for the following, it's absurd:

How is that beside the point when part of the discussion, which I was exploring with Bicicleur, is that foreign occupation can inhibit creativity and destroy economic prosperity, especially if it goes on for a long time? How on earth could you say that Spanish rule of parts of Italy didn't last a long time? By successful, I didn't mean successful for Italy, of course, but successful from the Spanish point of view in that they were able to maintain it.

You know what, don't bother answering. It isn't worth it.

i never doubted the length of spanish rule what is not accurate is your presentation/context of the wars, and why would it be hard to maintain? if there were no revolts and milan/naples marched right along with it #39 and as philipII went sate-bankrupt no less than three times it had little to do with financial superiority either;

I think you'd be a bit easier to understand if you punctuate your sentences Alex, just my 2 pennies

that is a project for the future, because english is not my first language;

 

[bicicleur 2]

I'm sorry. I don't understand. France and Spain did conquer and occupy large parts of Italy, although Spanish rule was more successful and lasted longer, thanks to all that New World gold and the mercenaries it could buy.

It went from this:

To this:

As time went by, through intermarriages over and over again with the Hapbsburgs Toscana lost much of its autonomy as well.

If you mean that as the turmoil lessened but the foreign control became more complete there was less and less prosperity and creativity, I would agree with that.

republics in Italy created the renaissance and not the areas ruled by monarchist goverments be they foreign or not

thank you Angela, but Italian history is to complicated for me to grasp in 1 thread, just like I can't explain you the situation in the Low Countries in just a few posts

but I'm interested now
maybe I'll learn more when I have time

 

[davef]

i understood that part and keep the answering short, its apples and oranges;



i never doubted the length of spanish rule what is not accurate is your presentation/context of the wars, and why would it be hard to maintain? if there were no revolts and milan/naples marched right along with it #39 and as philipII went sate-bankrupt no less than three times it had little to do with financial superiority either;



that is a project for the future, because english is not my first language;

No problem! You seem to be doing well so far!

 

[davef]

No problem! You seem to be doing well so far!

OK person who downvoted me, stop being a wuss and let me know everything that's wrong with my post because I'll just assume you're a nasty rotten person until you do

 

[IronSide]

OK person who downvoted me, stop being a wuss and let me know everything that's wrong with my post because I'll just assume you're a nasty rotten person until you do

davef, its ok to be downvoted, I know you can handle it, the world wont end, the sun will rise tomorrow just as usual ... I downvoted your post, you can downvote mine, lets exchange fists no one will die

 

[davef]

davef, its ok to be downvoted, I know you can handle it, the world wont end, the sun will rise tomorrow just as usual ... I downvoted your post, you can downvote mine, lets exchange fists no one will die

Nah, I gave you an upvote instead. I don't give downvotes, if I have a problem with a post I'd either speak out against it or not do anything.

I don't let them ruin my day, believe me there's worse things out there like a cancer diagnosis. I was ticked that an inoffensive and supportive comment got a downvote but my anger blew over quickly.

the end

 

[Pax Augusta]

The Spaniards destroyed the elite and the economy and the commerce. They were very repressive.
If it were not for them, maybe the center of the renaissance would have been in Belgium and not in northern Italy.

It was central Italy (Tuscany) the center of the Renaissance, only subsequently northern Italy. And Spaniards were repressive and destroyed the economy and the commerce also in Italy. In Italy there is not a good memory of Spanish dominations. But Renaissance is earlier and has its roots in the Humanism.

 

[Carlos]

You could have put a bit of your part, it is very hard to maintain an Empire with territory in different continents which could not be controlled all by land, it was the first time something like this happened. A little will in a united or homogeneous Europe, by that time it was already a very advanced idea, probably without this Spanish domination in Europe things would have been otherwise, and I think that many countries in Europe can not complain about everything that he came later.

 

[Carlos]

El Gran Capitán, mmm hay una marca de quesos española que se llama así: El Gran Capitán, ideal para aperitivos, bocadillos e.t.c. Cheese with intense flavor, firm texture, and a sheep aroma that brings you the air of the past.

The cheese with which one day the battles won were celebrated, the same that you now serve at your table to share with your comrades.


The CNI deciphers the secret letters between Fernando the Catholic and the Great Captain of the Naples campaign

https://elpais.com/cultura/2018/02/02/actualidad/1517583621_006550.html

The deciphered letters deal with issues as diverse as the sending of troops, the administration of justice, the collection and management of taxes. Also how to win the affection of the new subjects, so that there would be more integration after the campaigns, by promoting marriages between local widows and Spanish soldiers, as explained by Fernando el Católico himself in one of the correspondences.

That hieroglyphic and mysterious language was made up of 88 different symbols and 237 combined letter codes. For each letter there were two to six figurative characters, such as triangles, stripes or numbers, so it could not even be deciphered by a simple repetition of symbols. In addition, to further complicate matters, the signs were written without separating the words or phrases.

 

[Sile]

Nah, I gave you an upvote instead. I don't give downvotes, if I have a problem with a post I'd either speak out against it or not do anything.

I don't let them ruin my day, believe me there's worse things out there like a cancer diagnosis. I was ticked that an inoffensive and supportive comment got a downvote but my anger blew over quickly.

the end

good idea...get administrators to remove the negative option and leave the positive only ...........stops all this 'hate" between members

 

[alexfritz]

good idea...get administrators to remove the negative option and leave the positive only ...........stops all this 'hate" between members

fun fact is that you are not even entitled to use the negative button, if you do, for posts that you seriously think are nonsense, you get banned for whatever twisted reasons; a childish game, specially by those who react;

anyways spanish rule in italy (milan/naples) was first and foremost fostered by the catholic church/papacy and the minor nobility or as h.kamen(2014) puts it 'Spain moreover had enjoyed the advantage of being able to rely on the resources of its partners in the monarchy – the naval expertise and military manpower of the Genoese and Neapolitans, the weaponry of Milan and of Flanders, the finances of Antwerp and Italy'
https://books.google.de/books?id=cS...3YAhWNGuwKHUK4Be0Q6AEIVDAF#v=onepage&q&f=true

the entire lepanto expedition on part of spain for example was financed ~36%(430000escudos) by the italian domains incl sicily, apart from contributing to the spanish contingent (along with the two elite spanish tercios depadilla/enriquez) one lombard regiment(gonzaga) one neapolitan regiment(sarno) and five unattached sicilian companies; in total spanish rule in italy (charlesV>philipII investiture) was a period of great interaction and stability, greatly instigated however by the catholic church;

 

[Angela]

It's amazing how many people in this hobby are obsessives or have serious emotional problems when you scratch the surface: maybe a high degree of Asperger's Syndrome because they're attracted to data mining? Anyway, a serious lack of social skills seems to be endemic, particularly on certain threads. They can't stop insulting other people, even moderators, and even when they know provoking or insulting moderators results in a 4 point infraction. It happens in the workplace too, particularly with men being supervised or monitored by women, and I don't mean just me. It's like what they would accept from a man they just won't accept from a woman. Well, guys, get used to it. It's a new world out there. Take your lumps and get on with it. I don't get it, myself, but I'm not one of those people who keeps doing the same thing over and over again even when I know I'm not going to enjoy the consequences.

For the record for others, your infraction points don't go away. If you come back after a ban and get another infraction it's added to the total. 10 points is a ban for x amount of time, fifteen is for longer. Eventually it's permanent.

NO ONE here gets an infraction for down voting people, even when some childish posters decide to vent their spleen by down voting someone's posts about puppies, let's say, just because they're pissed they lost a debate on another thread. You get infractions for provocation, insults, etc. Look up the rules.

Is it so hard to just follow those rules? There are people who have been here for years and manage to conduct civil debates. Just do it, for God's sake.

 

[Northener]

The whole thing is stupid anyway. The soldiers employed by the Spanish crown were often German and Swiss mercenaries, so if anything they should be looking for that kind of yDna. It was the same way in the Italian Wars. The majority of the troops of Charles V who pillaged Rome and used St. Peter's as a stable for their horses and defecated on the altar were German Lutheran mercenaries.

Amazing the nonsense people will believe because it suits their prejudices, and indeed amazing how they will tailor the legends to attribute evil only to groups against whom they are prejudiced either for religious or ethnic reasons. Sometimes I honestly despair of people.

See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Rome_(1527)

On the whole this article of Maarten Larmuseau was aimed to debunk the impact of Spanish fury on the population of the low lands. This 'legend' must be seen in the context of the Dutch liberation war (1568-1648) and the anti-spanish propaganda of the Dutch calvinist. I think he successfully debunked this frame.

BUT! there are examples that rape by the Spanish army produced indeed some children.....I sincerely guess that my Y-DNA is an example of that.....

My Y-DNA is E-V22. It's proven that at least from the 18th century E-V22 is in my family (some distant cousins are tested too). My E-V22 (full gnome tested) is unique in NW Europe on the Yfull tree I share my branch with people from the middle east (Emirates and such like), no single trace to Friesland/Netherlands! The autosomal DNA of my father is outmost NNW European (even more West Norway like than North Dutch).

I know that in my village of my earliest ancestor the Spanish raided, to demoralize the Frisians, in 1586. This was the so called battle of Boksum. Reports stated that many pater familias had to see their woman "were raped in front of their eyes". Here an old picture:

(This can have some frame aspects too....but still the so called Spanish fury did indeed occurre).

E-V22 is absolutely rare above the Alps. It's also seldom in Southern Europe. But I discovered that in certain area's like Asturias and Andalucia in Spain, the area around Napoli (and southwards) and on Sicily E-V22 is about 5% of the men.

And in Parker, Geoffrey (2004). The Army of Flanders and the Spanish Road 1567-1659: The Logistics of Spanish Victory and Defeat in the Low Countries' Wars (Second ed.). Cambridge: Cambridge University Press is shown that the recruitment area's of the Spanish Army at that time were indeed Asturias, Andalucia, Napoli/ Luciana, Palermo/ Sicily.

E-V22 heatmap by Passa (2015)

So the best educated guess is that my Y-DNA is "implanted" by a 'Spanish' soldier.....