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Thread: I'm Palestinian my haplogroup r-L23 (Z2109?),What's next?

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    Country: Jordan



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    I'm Palestinian my haplogroup r-L23 (Z2109?),What's next?

    Hello my fellow R1b tribe I did a 23andme test recently and I was assigned R-L23 I then downloaded the raw data and converted it using Morely (2017) tool to Y-Snps I found out that that I am Z-2109+

    Could you please tell me more about my haplogroup ?where it came from? there is little information on Z-2109 available on the internet .








    here is the my Y-snps:


    50f2(P)-,50f2(P)-,A100-,A1075-,A1333-,A14-,A150-,A151-,A153-,A154-,A155-,A157-,A159-,A16-,A196-,A210-,A212-,A218-,A224-,A2288-,A2465-,A259-,A260-,A286-,A288-,A294-,A3-,A356-,A366-,A368-,A417-,A421-,A427-,A432-,A459-,A494-,A5312-,A5313-,A533-,A5331+,A542-,A561-,A661-,A662-,A663-,A664-,A67-,A7-,A715-,A726-,A8-,A824-,A88-,A89-,A9-,A90-,AF13-,AF4-,AF6-,AF7-,AF8-,AF9-,Apt-,Apt-,BY1-,BY11-,BY114-,BY126-,BY138-,BY14-,BY140-,BY141-,BY142-,BY147-,BY149-,BY151-,BY158-,BY159-,BY166-,BY17-,BY182-,BY184-,BY23-,BY266-,BY2760-,BY2776-,BY2790-,BY332-,BY352+,BY354-,BY451-,BY526-,BY60-,CLFY10329-,CLFY10401-,CLFY1042-,CLFY10864-,CLFY11015-,CLFY11038-,CLFY1110-,CLFY1119-,CLFY1146-,CLFY11612-,CLFY11614-,CLFY11755-,CLFY11890-,CLFY11891-,CLFY12108-,CLFY12212-,CLFY1235-,CLFY1247-,CLFY12861-,CLFY13147-,CLFY13553-,CLFY13668-,CLFY14002-,CLFY14185-,CLFY14298-,CLFY14337-,CLFY14337-,CLFY14376-,CLFY1447-,CLFY15399+,CLFY15490-,CLFY1564-,CLFY16314-,CLFY1651-,CLFY1666-,CLFY1707-,CLFY18222-,CLFY186-,CLFY1869-,CLFY18824-,CLFY1884-,CLFY18883+,CLFY1893-,CLFY1918-,CLFY19480-,CLFY20+,CLFY214-,CLFY2174+,CLFY2402-,CLFY242-,CLFY2486-,CLFY2526+,CLFY2706-,CLFY2971-,CLFY3119-,CLFY3203-,CLFY3271-,CLFY3449-,CLFY3545-,CLFY3721-,CLFY39-,CLFY3908-,CLFY3961-,CLFY4778-,CLFY630-,CLFY6535-,CLFY6581-,CLFY6628+,CLFY6639-,CLFY6816-,CLFY6841-,CLFY7028-,CLFY7065+,CLFY7074-,CLFY7251-,CLFY7259-,CLFY7476-,CLFY7674-,CLFY7938-,CLFY7991-,CLFY8043-,CLFY810-,CLFY8209-,CLFY8303-,CLFY8307-,CLFY8652-,CLFY908-,CLFY9131-,CLFY9258-,CLFY9490-,CTS10035-,CTS10057-,CTS10082-,CTS10100-,CTS10113-,CTS10148-,CTS10149+,CTS1019-,CTS10282-,CTS10349+,CTS10349-,CTS10391-,CTS10495-,CTS10613-,CTS10638-,CTS10659-,CTS10682-,CTS10685-,CTS107-,CTS10713-,CTS10729-,CTS10736-,CTS10753-,CTS10761-,CTS10806-,CTS10890-,CTS10893-,CTS10935-,CTS10936-,CTS10937-,CTS1096-,CTS10965-,CTS10976+,CTS10983+,CTS11042-,CTS11043-,CTS11150+,CTS11150-,CTS11150-,CTS11232-,CTS11285-,CTS11304-,CTS11330-,CTS11338-,CTS11342-,CTS11357-,CTS11461-,CTS11468+,CTS11468-,CTS11499-,CTS11562-,CTS11577-,CTS11722-,CTS11729-,CTS11741-,CTS1177-,CTS11796-,CTS11824-,CTS11831-,CTS11871-,CTS119-,CTS11916-,CTS11962-,CTS11969-,CTS11970-,CTS11984-,CTS11990-,CTS12-,CTS12004-,CTS12006-,CTS1210-,CTS1211-,CTS1215-,CTS1230-,CTS124-,CTS1243-,CTS125+,CTS1257-,CTS12632+,CTS1264-,CTS1285-,CTS1300-,CTS1304-,CTS1307-,CTS131-,CTS1313-,CTS1382-,CTS1434-,CTS1434-,CTS1445-,CTS1451-,CTS1456-,CTS15-,CTS16-,CTS1737-,CTS1738+,CTS1738-,CTS1753-,CTS1773-,CTS1780-,CTS1792-,CTS1843+,CTS1847-,CTS1858-,CTS1872-,CTS1875-,CTS1899-,CTS1933-,CTS1934-,CTS196+,CTS196-,CTS1964-,CTS1966-,CTS1977-,CTS1978-,CTS20-,CTS201-,CTS2022-,CTS203-,CTS2157-,CTS2187-,CTS220-,CTS2214-,CTS2243-,CTS2253-,CTS2254+,CTS2335-,CTS2340-,CTS241-,CTS2457-,CTS2457.1-,CTS2457.2-,CTS2496-,CTS2498-,CTS250-,CTS2509-,CTS2514-,CTS2549-,CTS2643-,CTS2646-,CTS2657-,CTS2731-,CTS2734-,CTS278-,CTS2809-,CTS2873-,CTS2906-,CTS2910-,CTS2929-,CTS300-,CTS3057-,CTS308-,CTS3085-,CTS3087-,CTS3105-,CTS3106-,CTS3135+,CTS3226-,CTS3229+,CTS3231+,CTS3231+,CTS3231-,CTS3262-,CTS331-,CTS3316+,CTS3334-,CTS3362-,CTS3380-,CTS3385-,CTS3393-,CTS3397-,CTS3402-,CTS3457-,CTS35-,CTS350-,CTS3505-,CTS3529+,CTS3573-,CTS3576-,CTS358-,CTS3607-,CTS3609-,CTS3648-,CTS3654+,CTS3654-,CTS3654-,CTS3655-,CTS3663-,CTS3729-,CTS3745-,CTS3758-,CTS3767-,CTS3802-,CTS3818+,CTS3848+,CTS3936-,CTS3974-,CTS3989-,CTS4027-,CTS4039-,CTS4065-,CTS4071-,CTS4075+,CTS4075+,CTS4075-,CTS4092-,CTS4115-,CTS417-,CTS4179-,CTS4188-,CTS4235-,CTS424-,CTS4245-,CTS4279-,CTS4296-,CTS4367-,CTS4415-,CTS4437-,CTS445-,CTS4466-,CTS4475-,CTS4521-,CTS4528-,CTS4585-,CTS4588-,CTS4617-,CTS4723-,CTS4803-,CTS482-,CTS4931-,CTS4944+,CTS4944-,CTS4944-,CTS4960-,CTS4994-,CTS5150-,CTS52-,CTS5332-,CTS5368-,CTS5373-,CTS5396-,CTS5406-,CTS5409-,CTS5418+,CTS544-,CTS5488-,CTS5539-,CTS5551-,CTS5601-,CTS562-,CTS5628-,CTS5726-,CTS579-,CTS583-,CTS5847-,CTS5854-,CTS5880-,CTS5884+,CTS5914-,CTS5933-,CTS5948+,CTS595-,CTS5964-,CTS5966-,CTS5981-,CTS5990-,CTS6-,CTS6046-,CTS6048-,CTS616-,CTS623+,CTS623-,CTS6236-,CTS6280-,CTS6319-,CTS6333-,CTS6343-,CTS6364-,CTS6376+,CTS6397-,CTS6433-,CTS6471-,CTS6474-,CTS6489-,CTS6507-,CTS651-,CTS6554-,CTS6581-,CTS6609-,CTS661-,CTS6621-,CTS6657-,CTS6678-,CTS674-,CTS6755-,CTS6796-,CTS6802-,CTS6803-,CTS6808-,CTS6864-,CTS6889-,CTS689-,CTS6892-,CTS6909-,CTS6933-,CTS6967-,CTS701-,CTS7083-,CTS7128-,CTS713-,CTS7197-,CTS72-,CTS723-,CTS730-,CTS7301+,CTS7301-,CTS7301-,CTS736-,CTS7399-,CTS7400+,CTS7400-,CTS748-,CTS750-,CTS753-,CTS7593-,CTS7604+,CTS7604-,CTS7604-,CTS7620-,CTS7641-,CTS7642-,CTS7655-,CTS7659+,CTS7659-,CTS7660-,CTS7667-,CTS7683-,CTS77-,CTS7734-,CTS7767-,CTS7776-,CTS7789-,CTS7799-,CTS7904+,CTS7904-,CTS7970-,CTS7976-,CTS8068-,CTS8093-,CTS8123-,CTS8125-,CTS8181-,CTS8221-,CTS8236-,CTS8277-,CTS8283-,CTS8350+,CTS8350+,CTS8350-,CTS8369-,CTS8401-,CTS8443-,CTS8512-,CTS8579-,CTS8584-,CTS8627+,CTS8665+,CTS8665-,CTS8728+,CTS8862-,CTS8876-,CTS8896-,CTS892-,CTS8959-,CTS8985-,CTS899-,CTS9018+,CTS9018-,CTS9083-,CTS91-,CTS9106-,CTS9162+,CTS9183-,CTS9188-,CTS9219-,CTS9333-,CTS9338-,CTS94-,CTS9547-,CTS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  2. #2
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Hi Kmismar, this is your haplogroup R1b L23 --> Z2103 --> Z2016 --> Z2019. you can see it here https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2108/

    Being Palestinian there are multiple ways your ancestors could have reached the Levant, but the main historical event that truly changed the demographics of the Levant was the migration of the Aryan-Hurrians from the Caucasus in the Middle/Late Bronze Age. around 1600 BC.

    This book is really helpful, Canaan in the second millennium B.C.E read the first chapter, discussion of the presence of these northern groups in Palestine.

    I believe that's how most of the R1b and J2 got to the region, I also think that's how I have I2c2, which is Caucasus based, so maybe our ancestors arrived together

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    Oh Ironside that was fast ,thanks for the information I will definitely be reading this book :).
    We both belong to basal haplogroups I dont think we arrived to the region recently (crusaders)

    Do you recommend doing this test would it be helpful "Yseq z2103 panel "?

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    Hi Kmismar, this is your haplogroup R1b L23 --> Z2103 --> Z2016 --> Z2019. you can see it here https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2108/

    Being Palestinian there are multiple ways your ancestors could have reached the Levant, but the main historical event that truly changed the demographics of the Levant was the migration of the Aryan-Hurrians from the Caucasus in the Middle/Late Bronze Age. around 1600 BC.

    This book is really helpful, Canaan in the second millennium B.C.E read the first chapter, discussion of the presence of these northern groups in Palestine.

    I believe that's how most of the R1b and J2 got to the region, I also think that's how I have I2c2, which is Caucasus based, so maybe our ancestors arrived together
    Interesting, I hadn't heard about this Aryan-Hurrian migration, though I'm aware that Hurrian kingdoms existed for a long time in the late Bronze Age in present-day Syria/Lebanon. But what exactly do you mean by Aryan-Hurrian? Certainly not a common group or tribal confederation, but rather different peoples from a broad geographic region, isn't it? Hurro-Urartians were culturally, linguistically very distinctive in comparison with Indo-Europeans like the Mitanni, Early Armenians and Anatolian IE peoples. Or do you mean that the Indo-Iranians of the Caucasus/Eastern Anatolia were genetically just assimilated Hurro-Urartians?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Interesting, I hadn't heard about this Aryan-Hurrian migration, though I'm aware that Hurrian kingdoms existed for a long time in the late Bronze Age in present-day Syria/Lebanon. But what exactly do you mean by Aryan-Hurrian? Certainly not a common group or tribal confederation, but rather different peoples from a broad geographic region, isn't it? Hurro-Urartians were culturally, linguistically very distinctive in comparison with Indo-Europeans like the Mitanni, Early Armenians and Anatolian IE peoples. Or do you mean that the Indo-Iranians of the Caucasus/Eastern Anatolia were genetically just assimilated Hurro-Urartians?
    Ah yes I just invented that term, sorry.

    Because I think Hurrians existed in the Near East longer than the Indo-European speaking Indo-Aryans, the Hurrians that moved to Syria/Palestine clearly had cultural influences from some Indo-Aryan speaking group as evidenced from some theonyms, proper names and other terminology.

    So they weren't entirely Hurrian, and they weren't entirely Aryan, but Aryan-Hurrians I think the relationship between these two groups is older and more complicated than the usual narrative that you would find in that link :) I believe their interaction began from when they were still in the Caucasus region, when migrants from the Steppe mingled with a population descended from the Kura-Araxes culture, the two cultures combined linguistically and religiously to form what I would call the Neo-Hurrians(Aryan-Hurrian ), who then migrated to the Levant.

    I subscribe to this theory, I find it very convincing:

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/12...ndo-aryan.html

    the word Aryan does sound like the word Hurrian doesn't it ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    Hi Kmismar, this is your haplogroup R1b L23 --> Z2103 --> Z2016 --> Z2019. you can see it here https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2108/

    Being Palestinian there are multiple ways your ancestors could have reached the Levant, but the main historical event that truly changed the demographics of the Levant was the migration of the Aryan-Hurrians from the Caucasus in the Middle/Late Bronze Age. around 1600 BC.

    This book is really helpful, Canaan in the second millennium B.C.E read the first chapter, discussion of the presence of these northern groups in Palestine.

    I believe that's how most of the R1b and J2 got to the region, I also think that's how I have I2c2, which is Caucasus based, so maybe our ancestors arrived together
    R1b is not from the Caucasus, rather, R1b has an extremely low diversity amongst all Caucasus groups and does not correlate with any tribe or any highland/lowland region of the Caucasus, or consistently with any linguistic isolates. It is only present in any quantity amongst Armenians, Azerbaijan (which is connected to the steppes), as well as SW Georgia which was the area settled by IE Speakers. Looking at the Pontic-Caspian Greeks, it is also at an elevated level (no surprise as it was likely a marker of IE Greek speaking males).

    R1b(Z2103) doesn't correlate with J2, G2, or any other middle eastern Y marker. It is all alone. Don't listen to the above 2 posters as they don't know what they are talking about and obviously haven't read several thorough studies on YDNA from the Caucasus of the last 2 or 3 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    R1b is not from the Caucasus, rather, R1b has an extremely low diversity amongst all Caucasus groups and does not correlate with any tribe or any highland/lowland region of the Caucasus, or consistently with any linguistic isolates. It is only present in any quantity amongst Armenians, Azerbaijan (which is connected to the steppes), as well as SW Georgia which was the area settled by IE Speakers. Looking at the Pontic-Caspian Greeks, it is also at an elevated level (no surprise as it was likely a marker of IE Greek speaking males).

    R1b(Z2103) doesn't correlate with J2, G2, or any other middle eastern Y marker. It is all alone. Don't listen to the above 2 posters as they don't know what they are talking about and obviously haven't read several thorough studies on YDNA from the Caucasus of the last 2 or 3 years.
    Are you implying that by the time of Hurrians and Indo-Aryans migrating into the Middle East, which was basically the late Bronze Age, R1b, either local, from the steppes or from Balkans, wasn't already present there? Even if the expansion of R1b wasn't from the Caucasus (and I personally think it was quite near to it, probably in the Black Sea coast or in other part of or near Anatolia), I'd bet that by the 1,500-1,200 BC it would already have migrated into the Anatolian and Caucasian plateaus. Probably Armenians even lived somewhere in the region already, even putting Anatolian IEs for a moment since we have no idea how and whence they went to Anatolia.

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    Not every R1b clade is straight out of the steppes. V88 for example is everything but not from the steppes. Same for R1b-V1636 (formed ~15600 ybp) to which I belong. And why should most of J2 have came with the Hurians? That is made out of thin air.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    R1b is not from the Caucasus, rather, R1b has an extremely low diversity amongst all Caucasus groups and does not correlate with any tribe or any highland/lowland region of the Caucasus, or consistently with any linguistic isolates. It is only present in any quantity amongst Armenians, Azerbaijan (which is connected to the steppes), as well as SW Georgia which was the area settled by IE Speakers. Looking at the Pontic-Caspian Greeks, it is also at an elevated level (no surprise as it was likely a marker of IE Greek speaking males).

    R1b(Z2103) doesn't correlate with J2, G2, or any other middle eastern Y marker. It is all alone. Don't listen to the above 2 posters as they don't know what they are talking about and obviously haven't read several thorough studies on YDNA from the Caucasus of the last 2 or 3 years.
    Actually , the highest variance of haplotypes on R1b is in eastern Anatolia (Actually in the Ararat plains). And, AFAIK, the only living person found thus far that is L23 without any known subclade is in Erzurum, in Anatolia.

    This image is always very telling (too much effort finding original).

    http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.pt...araratean.html
    Last edited by Olympus Mons; 17-01-18 at 16:29.

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    Is there a chance that r1b-z2013 is orginally from the levant and then spread to europe and the steppes ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Actually , the highest variance of haplotypes on R1b is in eastern Anatolia (Actually in the Ararat plains). And, AFAIK, the only living person found thus far that is L23 without any known subclade is in Erzurum, in Anatolia.

    This image is always very telling (too much effort finding original).
    Interesting. I wonder whether there was any connection between R1b peoples and Göbekli Tepe.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kmismar View Post
    Is there a chance that r1b-z2013 is orginally from the levant and then spread to europe and the steppes ?
    No that's not likely, based on the samples collected from ancient individuals from the Levant, Europe, and the Steppes.

    R1b in theory should be derived from groups descended from "Ancient North Eurasians", an ancestral component that represents descent from the people similar to the Mal'ta–Buret' culture or a population closely related to them.

    In West Eurasia, two important ancestral groups harbored ancestry from ANE:

    1-EHG (Eastern European Hunter-Gtherers) 3/4 of their ancestry was ANE, were found to mostly belong to R1b and R1a.

    2-Iran-Neolithic and CHG (Caucasus Hunter-Ghatherers), who might have from 30-40% ANE, some samples from Iran were found to be R, and from early Bronze Age Caucasus R1b, it is almost certain that R2 in south Asian populations spread with Iranian farmers. Haplogroups G, J, and L were also found in these two groups.

    Massive migrations from the Steppe contributed ANE ancestry to Europeans, the R male lineage, and the Indo-European languages, the most likely group to be the Proto-Indo Europeans were the population of the Yamnaya culture who were found to be descended from the previous EHG as well as a Near Eastern population from either Iran or the Caucasus.

    See this thread Important papers for newbies to Population Genetics

    (Haak et al 2015) and (Lazaridis et al 2016) should be useful to your question.

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    I've found this, maybe it can help a bit.
    https://kumbarov.com/ht35/KMS67_02.pdf

    Just go Living DNA results, I'm R1b, Z2109 too.
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