Tartessian Site-Ritual slaughter of 16 horses

[QUOTE = halfalp; 530440] Es bastante cierto que los hombres de Phoenicians se han casado con algunas mujeres locales, hijas de padres que tendrían algún interés en hacer negocios con los comerciantes recién llegados. Este es un patrón social y cultural que podemos ver en cada paso de la historia humana y en cada lugar del mundo. Así que nunca creo realmente en los "únicos puestos de avanzada de comerciantes" de los fenicios. [/ QUOTE]

The foundation of Cádiz (walled enclosure) by the Phoenicians would be the beginning of a new Tartessos with time, and also eventually its end.


Founding a city next to the kingdom of Tartessos must have been hard, because in the beginning I do not believe that the tartessos received the Phoenicians with open arms, the city of Cádiz was walled and the vigilance of the city was uninterrupted, it must have been a labor patient from the Phoenicians to gain the confidence of the tartessos and that they saw that the alliance with Phoenicians would be more positive than negative.

l o l

They identify Phoenician DNA in skeletal remains of two corpses found in the Comic Theater


They identify Phoenician DNA in skeletal remains of two corpses found in the Comic Theater

Thus, in the first individual several genetic lines have been detected (haplogroups HVOa1 and U1A) that are found primarily in populations of the Near East, where the Phoenician presence was more notable. That is to say, we are facing a subject of Phoenician origin of first or second generation (son of Phoenician father and mother settled in Gadir). The second subject is remarkably different from the previous one, because although genetic markers linked to geographic populations coinciding with ancient Phenicia have been detected (Syria, Lebanon and Jordan, with haplogroups K and HV1), haplogroup H, the highest presence in Western Europe.

http://www.europapress.es/andalucia...es-hallados-teatro-comico-20120214144746.html

I doubt it was hard, thousands of Phoenician pottery shards were found in Huelva, there was a lot of collaboration between the natives and the Phoenicians. Assuming the hut village of Huelva was Tartessos, as it was the biggest native site in Andalusia (20 hectares):

"Among the 8009 pottery shards studied, which just represent the
9% of the total fragments found, 4,703 are autochthonous, 3233 Phoenician, 33 Greek, 8 are Cypriot, 40 are Sardinian
and 2 are from Thyrrenian peninsular Italy
It has also been observed that in the calculation of fragments if we were limited to selecting the edges and the funds, the gap between the indigenous and the Phoenician materials would even be reversed in favor of the
second, with 3112 vessels imported against the 3000 of local production (González de Canales, Serrano and Llompart, 2006, 107)."

"Regarding the Phoenician materials- This is without a doubt the most ancient ceramic ensemble found in the Iberian Peninsula, prior to the foundation of the first colonies (Ramon Tor-
res, 2010, 218), characterized by luxury "services" from the motherland
(González de Canales, Serrano and Llompart, 2006, 108-109"
 
It's pretty certain that Phoenicians men have married some local women, daughters of fathers that would have some interests with making buisness with the newcomers traders. This is a social and cultural pattern that we can see in every step of human history and in every place around the world. So i never really believe in the " only traders outposts " of Phoenicians.

Traders often marry or mate with local women. That has never really been controversial in terms of the Phoenicians.

There is indeed a difference between establishing trading outposts, whether or not there is admixture with locals, and establishing expansive colonies fueled by large migrations of people. Even in the latter in some cases there is admixture, and in some cases there is not.

In the concession system established by European traders in China, the numbers were few and there wasn't very much admixture, perhaps partly because they brought their own women with them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concessions_in_China

In India, the Jewish traders were few, and they did admix with the natives, producing the Cochin Jews.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cochin_Jews

In South Africa, the Dutch settlers were colonizers in the true sense, and they were many, but they didn't admix except in the very beginning when it was mostly men. That's the origin of the Afrikaner community.

In "Latin America", large numbers of actual settlers arrived, but it was largely male mediated in the beginning, so there was admixture. Later, the number of women increased.

I think you're likely to get significant change in the local genetic signature only if you have large numbers of settlers, and those settlers admix with the locals. You might get some founder effects in terms of the "y" however. However, even that isn't guaranteed.

Every situation is different. What we do know is that the Phoenician settlements were quite different from the Greek ones. Now, if that's because they didn't choose to, or because they didn't have the numbers willing or forced to emigrate, I don't know.
 
Yes i know about the Lusitanii ethnolinguistic controversy, i was just saying that at this time, those local indo-europeans were more locals than newcomers.

Probably, at least in genetic terms, but apart from the previous Corded Ware or Yamnaya territory I think that's also true for any other IE-speaking region in Europe or Asia.
 
https://elpais.com/elpais/2018/02/13/eps/1518539498_460221.html?id_externo_rsoc=FB_CM

The possibility that the burning and burying of this building as of others of the same time and territory tartesso could be due to some climatological alteration or epidemic is considered. I believe that it could be due to Tartessa jurisprudence coming from the capital of Tartessos, closing places, towns or buildings where Tartessian laws had been transgressed. If certain populations some distance from the capital of Tartessos could have developed and prospered to the point of having united to conspire against the capital and the strong core of Tartessos and the punishment could have been to force these conspiratorial communities to close and settle because if If it had been a climate change, they could have moved to another part of the kingdom with animals and goods. If a pandemic were involved, human remains would have been found and with a virus that is killing you, there would be little need for feasts and celebrations.
 
And what would the capital of Tartessos be? There's no evidence that the tartessian culture was an unified state, they were rural settlements. The only urban center in the area was Huelva which by the 7th century bc was a Phoenician colony.
 
Or maybe it was what was implied: the approach of the Indo-European speaking peoples?
 
Yes, it might have been the Celts, the Tartessian speaking area comprised Southern portugal too, as proven by some Tartessian stelae found there, but later during the Roman era that area was inhabited by Celtic speaking people, correct me if I'm wrong.
 
[QUOTE = Pigmalión; 533056] ¿Y cuál sería la capital de Tartessos? No hay evidencia de que la cultura tartessian fuera un estado unificado, eran asentamientos rurales. El único centro urbano de la zona era Huelva, que en el siglo VII a. C. era una colonia fenicia. [/ QUOTE]


The economic and cultural splendor of this civilization was due to its great wealth in natural resources (agriculture, livestock, fishing and mining) and its commercial relations with the peoples of the Mediterranean (in Europe and Africa).

His wealth par excellence were metals, especially gold, silver, tin and bronze that were already extracted in the s. X a.C. In fact Tartessos became the main supplier of the Mediterranean bronze and silver.

Man, rural, rural, I think a lot more.

It is unknown where the capital of Tartessos could be, logically a kingdom with such splendor and expansion had to have an important nucleus or capital, the world is like that, I doubt it could be otherwise. It takes a lot of economic investment and it goes very slow, with the building recently found in Extremadura there are difficulties in research due to lack of investment, and specialists need it. I think it would be important a help from the U.E. or other countries because of the great importance that this culture has for the history of Europe, the West and the Mediterranean countries.
 
It wasn't the only supplier of silver in the Mediterranean, the Tell Dor hoard (http://intarch.ac.uk/journal/issue35/6/2.html) shows that silver came to the Levant from either Sardinia or Spain, and it's likely that the name Tartessos came from the term Tarshish, which might have been a name for areas rich in silver, anyway it doesn't seem to have been a city but more like a region. My point is that there's no evidence of any urban site aside from those which formed thanks to the Phoenician input in the coasts like Onoba/Huelva. When you're talking about their splendor what are you referring to? The Phoenician treasure of El Carambolo? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_of_El_Carambolo
 
It wasn't the only supplier of silver in the Mediterranean, the Tell Dor hoard (http://intarch.ac.uk/journal/issue35/6/2.html) shows that silver came to the Levant from either Sardinia or Spain, and it's likely that the name Tartessos came from the term Tarshish, which might have been a name for areas rich in silver, anyway it doesn't seem to have been a city but more like a region. My point is that there's no evidence of any urban site aside from those which formed thanks to the Phoenician input in the coasts like Onoba/Huelva. When you're talking about their splendor what are you referring to? The Phoenician treasure of El Carambolo? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_of_El_Carambolo

There was no splendor and Tartessos was a town with two houses, we were ******* shit, you win the € 1 coin. Is that what you want to hear? do not touch me the eggs.
 
There was no splendor and Tartessos was a town with two houses, we were ******* shit, you win the € 1 coin. Is that what you want to hear? do not touch me the eggs.
That's not what I was saying, I'm saying that it wasn't an urban culture, they still developed a written language which is impressive. But I doubt there was a state like entity administrating the small villages.
 
[QUOTE = Pigmalión; 533075] Eso no es lo que estaba diciendo, estoy diciendo que no era una cultura urbana, todavía desarrollaron un lenguaje escrito que es impresionante. Pero dudo que haya una entidad estatal que administre las aldeas pequeñas. [/ QUOTE]

From my point of view and in view of the magnitude that reached the kingdom of Tartessos it is unthinkable and impossible that there was not an important nucleus or capital. Was the king of Tartessos simply in one of the villages? we are talking about a State with its own legislation with a good expansion of territory, there must be a capital, which has not been found does not indicate that it did not exist, when there are mentions of the Greek classics of its existence, and even if only by logic.
 
[QUOTE = Pigmalión; 533075] Eso no es lo que estaba diciendo, estoy diciendo que no era una cultura urbana, todavía desarrollaron un lenguaje escrito que es impresionante. Pero dudo que haya una entidad estatal que administre las aldeas pequeñas. [/ QUOTE]From my point of view and in view of the magnitude that reached the kingdom of Tartessos it is unthinkable and impossible that there was not an important nucleus or capital. Was the king of Tartessos simply in one of the villages? we are talking about a State with its own legislation with a good expansion of territory, there must be a capital, which has not been found does not indicate that it did not exist, when there are mentions of the Greek classics of its existence, and even if only by logic.
If it was an urban culture we would've found cities by now, but it's mostly villages and isolated mansions. They were certainly advanced since they possessed a script, but I doubt there was a central state, Tartessos probably was the name of South West Iberia, not of a particular city.
 
In the 10th century BC the sea flowed a few kilometers south of what is now Seville, leaving behind a wide navigable estuary for the merchants of the time. The neutral space of an island was the place chosen as a base for the redistribution of goods that entered and left by river and the products of the countryside that came from the interior lands. The emporium was known by the name of Ispal and is considered the capital of the kingdom of Tartessos.Sanluqueño researcher Manuel Cuevas has communicated to the Junta de Andalucía what he considers the finding, using satellite photographs, of a large ancient city buried in the pine forest of La Algaida, in Sanlúcar de Barrameda (Cádiz), next to the mouth of the Guadalquivir. The photographs contributed by the researcher, self-taught businessman of 52 years, are taken by satellite at 700 kilometers altitude and later increased and treated, and they show structural forms buried also in the Cerro del Trigo, in the current Doñana park, where the German archaeologist Adolf Schulten located the ancient Tartessos, about six kilometers from La Algaida, but on the other bank of the Guadalquivir river.Cuevas has submitted a letter in the Registry of the Ministry of Culture of Andalusia in which provides the coordinates of what has been interpreted as four large buildings and a village, all of them at least 2,500 years old. One of these structures, building or plaza surrounded by buildings, can measure 360 ​​meters by 180, while another of the structures measures about 180 by 100 meters, constructions of unusual dimensions for that historical period.There is evidence, but there is a lack of investment.

http://www.elmundo.es/andalucia/2015/09/05/55eacfaf268e3e7a328b4573.html
 
In the 10th century BC the sea flowed a few kilometers south of what is now Seville, leaving behind a wide navigable estuary for the merchants of the time. The neutral space of an island was the place chosen as a base for the redistribution of goods that entered and left by river and the products of the countryside that came from the interior lands. The emporium was known by the name of Ispal and is considered the capital of the kingdom of Tartessos.Sanluqueño researcher Manuel Cuevas has communicated to the Junta de Andalucía what he considers the finding, using satellite photographs, of a large ancient city buried in the pine forest of La Algaida, in Sanlúcar de Barrameda (Cádiz), next to the mouth of the Guadalquivir. The photographs contributed by the researcher, self-taught businessman of 52 years, are taken by satellite at 700 kilometers altitude and later increased and treated, and they show structural forms buried also in the Cerro del Trigo, in the current Doñana park, where the German archaeologist Adolf Schulten located the ancient Tartessos, about six kilometers from La Algaida, but on the other bank of the Guadalquivir river.Cuevas has submitted a letter in the Registry of the Ministry of Culture of Andalusia in which provides the coordinates of what has been interpreted as four large buildings and a village, all of them at least 2,500 years old. One of these structures, building or plaza surrounded by buildings, can measure 360 ​​meters by 180, while another of the structures measures about 180 by 100 meters, constructions of unusual dimensions for that historical period.There is evidence, but there is a lack of investment.

http://www.elmundo.es/andalucia/2015/09/05/55eacfaf268e3e7a328b4573.html

Interesting, how have they dated these supposed structures?
 
^
It would be to prove that they belong to the hypothetical capital of Tartessos, the only thing we ask is that it can be investigated and that requires pecuniary investment, there would be no lack of passion and desire to work on the project.
 
I was going to chime in with Ithaca being cadiz and the home of odysseus. but ill only get told off.
Even though his home had trees and was the furthest west. clearly not the tiny dot of baron land that is not furthest west in greece.
Oh well i can only try :)
 
http://sevilla.abc.es/provincia/sev...s_source=fb&ns_linkname=noticia.foto&ns_fee=0

A scientific study on an "enigmatic" enclave in Carmona (Sevilla) places it in the third millennium BC

The research work of this scientific study collected by Europa Press, carried out in 2015 and 2016, made it clear that «the center of the complex (discovered) is occupied by a circular structure with an estimated diameter of 20 meters and an area of 315 square meters ».

Thus, the study prepared by the aforementioned archaeologists describes the site discovered mentioning four fences dug in a "concentric around the large central structure", although the field work also included the discovery of two more ditches more distant from those already described, with different arrangement and "much larger diameter".

Likewise, the report details that the archaeological excavations that followed the aerial photographs and the geomagnetic surveys resulted in the identification of a total of "32 structures" in the main concentration of fences, where such structures were used for pits, "conical" pits or «Cylindrical», circular or oval pools and a «macro negative structure» or large hole 2.2 meters deep and a diameter of 16.5 meters.

«Ceramic fragments»

The excavations, moreover, led to the discovery of «ceramic fragments» presumably belonging to «plates, cups or bowls», among other domestic utensils, some of them even decorated.

With such elements on the table, the archaeologists who sign this study collected by Europa Press expose that the area of the Loma del Real Tesoro is located "in a strategic position" with respect to the Guadalquivir River, its Corbones tributary and the Los Alcores escarpment, while the investigation of the ceramic fragments discovered in each of the two sectors in which the archaeological site is divided would suggest that both spaces would have been "contemporary", but perhaps they would have played "different functions".

The enigma of the Loma del Real Tesoro

In the first place, the authors of the report pay special attention to the fact that "the arrangement or plan of the five innermost ditches" discovered in sector number two of the archaeological site "seems to gravitate around a giant, deep and still enigmatic localized negative circular mark. in its center". "This huge hole seems to lie in the heart and the origin of the complete system of ditches", archaeologists explain, remembering that these "preliminary impressions" are pending "more analysis".
 
http://www.academia.edu/35423441/_C...oro_Carmona_Seville_Spain_and_its_resources._

This is some solid proof of the water level having everything to do with these ring ditch sites.
This ring ditch was half in and half out of water. and was in fact a port on the edge of the swollen river.
The massive ditches is what you would construct to keep the rising water at bay.
It follows that you can work out when they were built by the level of the surrounding water, using charts.
I would not be at all surprised if the ditches were dug before 6000 bc when the sea level was at its most
severe point. Pottery from the chalcolithic is a marker that they were there at least as early as, and not a
marker for construction date. Those dark patches of soil and sand is a dead give away to there age and its
far earlier then 2800bc.
 
Little or nothing we know of their religious or funeral customs, since not a single necropolis has been found in the lower Guadalquivir corresponding to this time, a fact that baffles researchers and that they attribute this gap in information to chance. However, and in parallel with the absence of cemeteries, there have been findings of weapons and other metallic objects within the rivers, interpretable in some cases as the remains of wrecked ships or warlike actions occurred on its banks, but the relative abundance of These findings and the fact that these occur in areas where there are no cemeteries seems to open the possibility that they were funeral offerings thrown into rivers along with the corpses of the dead.
 

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