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Thread: Iberian Neolithic M269?

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    Iberian Neolithic M269?

    It just has been published the R1b-M343 (xP312xU106) Y-DNA tree by Sergey Malyshev.
    (https://kumbarov.com/ht35/R1b_xP312xU106_V.38.1.pdf)

    I don’t really know them, don’t know how credible this things are. However two things are remarkable.
    a. They, like Genetiker, put ATP3 as M269 and,
    b. most amazingly, add MC337A, Monte Canelas (Portugal), Late Neolithic/Chalcolithic also as R1b-M269.
    c. Atp3 in north Spain 3400-3100 bc and MC337 is 3200-2900bc in the most remote southwestern point of Europe.


    Remember that Martiniano et al published several Portugal Late Neolithic/Chalcolithic individuals as I2a1b giving the impression they dominate this Period in Portugal and MC337A as nothing reported for him. Then, the following period, middle bronze age, as full of R1b1a2a1a2 (so, P312). Hence the arrival of Steppe (or Balkan east bell beakers) R1b timeline mantra. Though, these 3 bronze age P312 actually had no Steppe component to them. But it did not deter the narrative.

    If, I repeat If, this turns out to be correct then we have In Portugal, further way as one gets from steppe. 3200BC (M269) ------- son 1800BC (P312) ----- grandson R1b-DF27 (without Z195, so no East to west cline). In the same 100 miles area.

    Not really the story we are been told, is it?
    Last edited by Olympus Mons; 18-01-18 at 22:37.

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    it is early Iberian chalcolithic
    these people came clearly from elsewhere
    but where?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    it is early Iberian chalcolithic
    these people came clearly from elsewhere
    but where?
    What would be your bet? :)

    I personally think that is not serious to see a vast amount (as Katie Manning as shown) of people disappear from the Green Sahara turning into Sahara desert due to the 5.9 Kiloyear event .... at the same time an almost wasteland such as iberia sees its population spike to a point where a city such as porto torrao a few hundreds later has as much people as cities like the Mesopotamian UR-- And not connect the dots!

    Or maybe people came from several parts... maybe the arrival of such amount from N. Africa also attracted others from other parts (southern france?) ... we will see.

    For katie Manning Mp4, see at the end of her paper....http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...77379114002728

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    What would be your bet? :)

    I personally think that is not serious to see a vast amount (as Katie Manning as shown) of people disappear from the Green Sahara turning into Sahara desert due to the 5.9 Kiloyear event .... at the same time an almost wasteland such as iberia sees its population spike to a point where a city such as porto torrao a few hundreds later has as much people as cities like the Mesopotamian UR-- And not connect the dots!

    Or maybe people came from several parts... maybe the arrival of such amount from N. Africa also attracted others from other parts (southern france?) ... we will see.

    For katie Manning Mp4, see at the end of her paper....http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...77379114002728
    I don't have a clue, but I wouldn't think people introducing copper melting into Iberia came from the Green Sahara.
    It could be the Balkans, but there no such early R1b-M269 has been sampled.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I don't have a clue, but I wouldn't think people introducing copper melting into Iberia came from the Green Sahara.
    It could be the Balkans, but there no such early R1b-M269 has been sampled.
    Yes, dificult to grasp.
    *However Egypt Badarians (4400bc 4000bc) already were melting copper... Do you think it was people from the Balkans?
    *and would not be surprise if also find copper with merimde, because they brought all other traits to the region....
    Up until not that long ago, Because ivory in chalc portugal was from there, portuguese archeology papers connected chalc with Badarian ...
    Things might be more complicated...
    ..

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    They are late Neolithic though , basically Calcholithic. By that time branches of M269 reached Central Europe , and already about to diversify into subclades.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    I missed that MC337A was male back when I analyzed the Portuguese samples. It isn’t R1b-M269. It’s H2a1~FGC3846. I’ve added a link to its calls on my post on the Portuguese samples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Yes, dificult to grasp.
    *However Egypt Badarians (4400bc 4000bc) already were melting copper... Do you think it was people from the Balkans?
    *and would not be surprise if also find copper with merimde, because they brought all other traits to the region....
    Up until not that long ago, Because ivory in chalc portugal was from there, portuguese archeology papers connected chalc with Badarian ...
    Things might be more complicated...
    ..
    I have no clue.
    If they came from the Balkan, I guess we should have found the R1b-M269 there too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Genetiker View Post
    I missed that MC337A was male back when I analyzed the Portuguese samples. It isn’t R1b-M269. It’s H2a1~FGC3846. I’ve added a link to its calls on my post on the Portuguese samples.
    But on the calls you have for him it shows positive for M269...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Yes, dificult to grasp.
    *However Egypt Badarians (4400bc 4000bc) already were melting copper... Do you think it was people from the Balkans?
    *and would not be surprise if also find copper with merimde, because they brought all other traits to the region....
    Up until not that long ago, Because ivory in chalc portugal was from there, portuguese archeology papers connected chalc with Badarian ...
    Things might be more complicated...
    ..
    So there was Chalcolithic in Africa ? I fought they jumped directly from Late Neolithic to Iron Age.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    So there was Chalcolithic in Africa ? I fought they jumped directly from Late Neolithic to Iron Age.
    Yes. Badarian had copper awls, beads, etc.
    However, I think the story is different. All other “Caucasian” traits (types of grains, pastoral, dogs, etc.) were brought by Merimde beni salama people (4700BC-4000BC), so I think they brought copper melting with them to the region. If & when they are sampled there will be a surprise.
    Badarian were more south and not the same phenotype as Merimde which were taller and with a bigger cranial vault.
    The resulting people (Badarian/Merimde) might have been Maadi culture (4000-3500BC). Cranial(ly) they were a mix. And had lots of copper. Even copper adzes. And domesticated donkeys.

    ….and then… why do we have a 2300BC African donkey in Portugal, when everybody assumed they had been introduced much later? Weirdly on a bell beaker site.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Yes. Badarian had copper awls, beads, etc.
    However, I think the story is different. All other “Caucasian” traits (types of grains, pastoral, dogs, etc.) were brought by Merimde beni salama people (4700BC-4000BC), so I think they brought copper melting with them to the region. If & when they are sampled there will be a surprise.
    Badarian were more south and not the same phenotype as Merimde which were taller and with a bigger cranial vault.
    The resulting people (Badarian/Merimde) might have been Maadi culture (4000-3500BC). Cranial(ly) they were a mix. And had lots of copper. Even copper adzes. And domesticated donkeys.

    ….and then… why do we have a 2300BC African donkey in Portugal, when everybody assumed they had been introduced much later? Weirdly on a bell beaker site.
    I know that western egypt had native copper and meteoric iron that could have been a proto-metallurgy but looking at Badarian, it looks way more eastern egypt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    I know that western egypt had native copper and meteoric iron that could have been a proto-metallurgy but looking at Badarian, it looks way more eastern egypt.
    Yes, that is why, to me at least, badarian is a puzzling. I think badarian overrun Merimbiens. But the Merimdian/El-omari were the ones that brought/have it and not the Badarian that just stole and kick them out. Maadi is a mix.
    Just because it has not yet been found at their sites, merimde, does not mean it wasn't them. The German team found this year that Merimde was actually much bigger. so they have authorization to excavate further.... lets see what comes out.

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    I'm not trying to push any narrative, but I had thought that the first P312 in Iberia did have a small measure of "steppe".

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    Until they found 1 or 2 outliers with 75% Steppe, archeogenetic is a non-static science that can change by perspective to a study through another.

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    So the R1b was M269 or not? Genetiker himself states that one of the supposed samples was actually a H2. Before speculating about the best hypotheses, shouldn't we be totally sure that we do have several R1b-M269 there in the first place?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    So the R1b was M269 or not? Genetiker himself states that one of the supposed samples was actually a H2. Before speculating about the best hypotheses, shouldn't we be totally sure that we do have several R1b-M269 there in the first place?
    Replace MC337 by ATP3 (3400bc) that both genetiker and Malyshev say is M269 and you can postulate the same.
    I was using MC because than all samples are from a 100 miles region....

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    I'm not trying to push any narrative, but I had thought that the first P312 in Iberia did have a small measure of "steppe".
    Interesting. So a steppe R1b can get to Portugal with minuscule Steppe and its game on, but an Iberian getting to germany with minimal Iberian neolithic invalidates 50 years of archaeology stating the origins of Bell beakers in Portugal, therefore as the source of their patrilineage?

    Have you notive now that is given in "certain circles" that bellbeakers r1b is from... balkans?

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    I think as usual the spread of R1b is confusing and probably came in many waves with possible multiple sources. Putting it into one source would be hard unless we can pinpoint exactly where M269 originated, which is extremely difficult using ancient samples.
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Interesting. So a steppe R1b can get to Portugal with minuscule Steppe and its game on, but an Iberian getting to germany with minimal Iberian neolithic invalidates 50 years of archaeology stating the origins of Bell beakers in Portugal, therefore as the source of their patrilineage?

    Have you notive now that is given in "certain circles" that bellbeakers r1b is from... balkans?
    The only problem with this very possible narrative is that the Y-DNA and the autosomal DNA of Portuguese Bell Beakers (those few that were analyzed, of course) were clearly very different from Central European Bell Beakers. I could understand very few autosomal DNA from them surviving after generations of mixing in Central Europe, but also none of the typical Portuguese Bell Beaker Y-DNA that were found? Could we really presume from 1 Neolithic (not even Bronze Age, much less in a clearly Bell Beaker context) R1b that Bell Beakers from Portugal spread all the R1b-M269 that we know?

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    None of the portuguese samples were bell beakers. They were in the region but bell beakers people were not thrown into caves like the samples they used....

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    So R1b M269 was already in Iberia in Neolithic?
    Also i am confused that in "Yamnaya" until now is only found the eastern branch of R1b-Z103.

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    @Olympus Mons

    That is to say that all the tests collected to verify this phenomenon of massive invasion of the steppe, are non-objective tests and chosen on purpose to accommodate them to a previously conceived theory?

    I do not think it was like that


    If it is true that apart from these comments that in iberia were only tested neolithic and not true campaniformes, also in France it is observed that the few tests they perform are very close to Germany.

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    @Olympus Mons
    None of the portuguese samples were bell beakers. They were in the region but bell beakers people were not thrown into caves like the samples they used.... "
    :
    Possible indeed but are you so sure?To try to reconciliate all these contradictions, we can imagine a first borderline pop initiating the BB cultural phenomenon in CSW Portugal SW Spain, and becoming accepted by a certain Chalco elite, creating kind of a (religious) mode accaparated later by this Chalco elite and spred around by it in other places (BTW let's keep in mind the BB phenomenon, even in it strongest phase, did not cover all the territories where it dived its places) - an elite with power and controle of commercial "highways" could have boosted the circulation of this new (religious) mode ? Hypothesis...
    THat said, an eastern origin (East carpathians) cannot be excluded, and first Y-R1b not more - but I regret we have not more serious samples for supposed Iberian BB's, as you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    @Olympus Mons
    None of the portuguese samples were bell beakers. They were in the region but bell beakers people were not thrown into caves like the samples they used.... "
    :
    Possible indeed but are you so sure?To try to reconciliate all these contradictions, we can imagine a first borderline pop initiating the BB cultural phenomenon in CSW Portugal SW Spain, and becoming accepted by a certain Chalco elite, creating kind of a (religious) mode accaparated later by this Chalco elite and spred around by it in other places (BTW let's keep in mind the BB phenomenon, even in it strongest phase, did not cover all the territories where it dived its places) - an elite with power and controle of commercial "highways" could have boosted the circulation of this new (religious) mode ? Hypothesis...
    THat said, an eastern origin (East carpathians) cannot be excluded, and first Y-R1b not more - but I regret we have not more serious samples for supposed Iberian BB's, as you.
    This conundrum does not have a solution anymore.
    Once Martiniano and Olalde published what they did, even though they make some warnings about samples, but after what they published…. Its over at least for a while. No point in arguing against.
    See, its not easy to fix the Portuguese bell beakers problem now. Remember.
    a. Oldest BB ever, ever, was the one in Hut FM (or Hut3) at the doorsteps of the leceia fortress. We have stratigraphy that show that for hundreds of years, generation after generation, the Hut FM were bell beakers and the hut 300 meters away never went to bell beaker. Different pottery. And they lived in the same 500 meters for centuries. So, different people that did not mix! .
    b. To figure who bell beakers were, one would need to sample either Zambujal or VNSP. Who were the people that made fine “copos” (beakers), that were just one steppe away from bell shape…
    c. Martiniano and olalde are comparing proper bell beakers, buried in individual graves with all the traits of a proper bell beaker, with Portuguese late neolithic people thrown at caves? Does it strike you as serious?
    d. Perdigoes in the south Portugal is treasure trove. So, some proper Bell beakers there…. But, but, are late 3rd milenia. Those samples are being collected for adna …. But see, whatever comes out will be read as, oh, the eastern bell beakers arrived…. And if they do not exhibit large amounts of steppe, is just generation admix with locals that diluted it.

    So, unless its tested proper Bell beakers in Portugal and later proper burial in Galicia, and so forth we will never know. Because even the Spanish meseta central bell beakers are later, and later who knows, van already be admix with central euope people coming back, something we know they did at some point.
    And unless the 1300 years of Perdigoes burials brings a surprise (like pure 3000bc as r1b) we will never get to the bottom of it.

    Note: seems VNSP land owner (the daughter) has came to an agreement with authorities (150 euros a month…..WTF!!) so, archeologists are going to be back to dig some more after 40 years. Lets see what they get. First survey showed it was much bigger.

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