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Thread: Mesolithic Greece: Face of 9,000-Year-Old Teenager Reconstructed

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    I never fully understand the paleolithic and mesolithic dark skin of european, i remember have seen an article who pretends that it was the african dark skin, but whatsoever i saw some time ago this virtual reconstruction of the two young people from Sunghir and i kind of like the rendering. 37301583890_9658d2131b_b.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    I never fully understand the paleolithic and mesolithic dark gskin of european, i remember have seen an article who pretends that it was the african dark skin, but whatsoever i saw some time ago this virtual reconstruction of the two young people from Sunghir and i kind of like the rendering. 37301583890_9658d2131b_b.jpg
    i think it's due to the hunter gatherers not getting vitamin d from food (dairy products) so they needed darker skin to absorb sun rays, though I could be wrong. The Stuttgart lady was pale as a cloud.
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    i think it's due to the hunter gatherers not getting vitamin d from food (dairy products) so they needed darker skin to absorb sun rays, though I could be wrong. The Stuttgart lady was pale as a cloud.
    Yes maybe, but Bushmen live in one of the most arid place in the world the Kahalari and they are pretty decomplexed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    i think it's due to the hunter gatherers not getting vitamin d from food (dairy products) so they needed darker skin to absorb sun rays, though I could be wrong.
    Dark-skinned people produce vitamin D more slowly than light-skinned people, because melanin aborbs UV radiation that could have been absorbed by protovitamin D.

    Natural dairy products contain little vitamin D, in North America vitamins are added to milk for public health reasons. The greatest amount of natural vitamin D is in fish, especially salmon; for land animals organ meat and fat has the most, dairy and muscle meat have little. Egg yolk is also pretty good. Actual vitamin D content varies a lot depending on what the animal ate and so forth. http://advances.nutrition.org/content/4/4/453.full

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    I never fully understand the paleolithic and mesolithic dark skin of european, i remember have seen an article who pretends that it was the african dark skin, but whatsoever i saw some time ago this virtual reconstruction of the two young people from Sunghir and i kind of like the rendering. 37301583890_9658d2131b_b.jpg
    No one is pretending anything: alleles for paler skin are either present or they're not present. Also, I'm not aware of any scientific paper or article stating that Mesolithic West Europeans had "African" dark skin as in, i.e. Nigerian skin color.

    What the scientists are saying, roughly, is that it is highly likely that a person with derived snps in SLC24A5 and SLC 45A2 would be "fairer" than people with ancestral values. If and until we learn otherwise it is what it is.







    Nor is it material what reconstructions, made by people before we had that knowledge, we prefer.

    As for southern African populations with slightly lighter pigmentation, of course, they're at a different latitude, not equatorial. Also, there has been a genetic inflow of derived snps into these populations.

    See: Brenna Henn et al, "Rapid Evolution of Lighter Skin Pigmentation in Southern Africa"

    http://meeting.physanth.org/program/...rn-africa.html

    "Skin pigmentation is under strong directional selection for reduced melanin density in northern European and Asian populations. Conversely, dark pigmentation is thought to be under stabilizing selection in equatorial populations exposed to intense ultraviolet radiation. We high-throughput sequenced pigmentation genes in over 400 individuals from South Africa and demonstrate that a canonical skin pigmentation gene, SLC24A5, experienced recent adaptive evolution in the KhoeSan populations of far southern Africa. The functionally caustive allele lightens basal skin pigmentation by 4 melanin units, explaining 11.9% variance in pigmentation in these populations. Haplotype analysis and demographic models indicate that the allele was introduced into the KhoeSan only within the past 3,000 years likely by eastern African pastoralists. The most common haplotype is shared among the KhoeSan, eastern Africans and Europeans but has risen to a frequency of 25%, far greater than expected given initial gene flow. The SLC24A5 locus is a rare example of strong, ongoing adaptation in very recent human history."


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    No one is pretending anything: alleles for paler skin are either present or they're not present. Also, I'm not aware of any scientific paper or article stating that Mesolithic West Europeans had "African" dark skin as in, i.e. Nigerian skin color.

    What the scientists are saying, roughly, is that it is highly likely that a person with derived snps in SLC24A5 and SLC 45A2 would be "fairer" than people with ancestral values. If and until we learn otherwise it is what it is.







    Nor is it material what reconstructions, made by people before we had that knowledge, we prefer.

    As for southern African populations with slightly lighter pigmentation, of course, they're at a different latitude, not equatorial. Also, there has been a genetic inflow of derived snps into these populations.

    See: Brenna Henn et al, "Rapid Evolution of Lighter Skin Pigmentation in Southern Africa"

    http://meeting.physanth.org/program/...rn-africa.html

    "Skin pigmentation is under strong directional selection for reduced melanin density in northern European and Asian populations. Conversely, dark pigmentation is thought to be under stabilizing selection in equatorial populations exposed to intense ultraviolet radiation. We high-throughput sequenced pigmentation genes in over 400 individuals from South Africa and demonstrate that a canonical skin pigmentation gene, SLC24A5, experienced recent adaptive evolution in the KhoeSan populations of far southern Africa. The functionally caustive allele lightens basal skin pigmentation by 4 melanin units, explaining 11.9% variance in pigmentation in these populations. Haplotype analysis and demographic models indicate that the allele was introduced into the KhoeSan only within the past 3,000 years likely by eastern African pastoralists. The most common haplotype is shared among the KhoeSan, eastern Africans and Europeans but has risen to a frequency of 25%, far greater than expected given initial gene flow. The SLC24A5 locus is a rare example of strong, ongoing adaptation in very recent human history."
    Yes when i say pretend it's juste like that. But the article i'm refering to was this one https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulrod.../#4468c709791d. At the time, in 2014 it was the top article when i wright dark skin, blue eyed in google.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Yes when i say pretend it's juste like that. But the article i'm refering to was this one https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulrod.../#4468c709791d. At the time, in 2014 it was the top article when i wright dark skin, blue eyed in google.
    Sorry that reality upsets your prejudices. Deal with it.

    If all you read is "news" articles and not scientific papers, that explains your lack of knowledge about the topic.

    "Angela: Also, I'm not aware of any scientific paper or article stating that Mesolithic West Europeans had "African" dark skin as in, i.e. Nigerian skin color. "

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Sorry that reality upsets your prejudices. Deal with it.

    If all you read is "news" articles and not scientific papers, that explains your lack of knowledge about the topic.
    It was in 2014, i was not even on Eupedia at the time. Jeez ! Still happy it's just internet, irl i have the impression that you would kick my ass for such a bloomer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    It was in 2014, i was not even on Eupedia at the time. Jeez ! Still happy it's just internet, irl i have the impression that you would kick my ass for such a bloomer.
    I abjure and abhore violence, halfalp, so you would be safe from me.

    However, I'm certainly not one of those people who can only be direct and even confrontational behind a keyboard. One of your Balkan compatriots sent me a scurrilous, disgusting pm this morning, out of nowhere I might add. I don't know whether I was supposed to be hurt, scared, or angry. I was amused. As I told him, in one of my prior professions I destroyed three "tough" guys like him before lunch. He got banned for his little attempt at projecting machismo.

    This post of yours actually shows a good sense of humor. Maybe I came down on you too hard. I'm just tired of perpetually having to deal with t-rolls from Neo-racist sites who spout the same a-scientific stuff over and over again. If you're not one of them, I apologize.
    Last edited by Angela; 23-01-18 at 19:48.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I abjure and abhore violence, halfalp, so you would be safe from me.

    However, I'm certainly not one of those people who can only be direct and even confrontational behind a keyboard. One of your Balkan compatriots sent me a scurrilous, disgusting pm this morning, out of nowhere I might add. I don't know whether I was supposed to be hurt, scared, or angry. I was amused. As I told him, in one of my prior professions I destroyed three "tough" guys like him before breakfast. He got banned for his little attempt at projecting machismo.

    This post of yours actually shows a good sense of humor. Maybe I came down on you too hard. I'm just tired of perpetually having to deal with t-rolls from Neo-racist sites who spout the same a-scientific stuff over and over again. If you're not one of them, I apologize.
    Ok first, i'm Swiss not Balkanic, even if physically one could say i look Balkanic or from the Caucasus and i don't know who you make reference to, i dont have any relation with anybody here. Secondly i'm not neo-nazi, neither racialist or racist, i might be xenophobic in certain situations. Thanks for the apologize and i apologize too for " all the times ". For the dark skin thing or even that Yamnaya guys were black haired, i dont have problems with that, i'm myself dark haired and dark eyed. But, im too curious for " dark skined, blue eyed " i want to know exactly how ancient people looked like, what kind of skin color or what kind of blue eyes were everything originate and how it propagate, not for ideologic reasons but only for representations of ancient humans. I'm sorry for the message that this guy send you, even though i think you can be extreme sometimes in the way you deal for exemple with amateurs like me, i would note send you some kind of ridiculous hateful messages. Sorry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Ok first, i'm Swiss not Balkanic, even if physically one could say i look Balkanic or from the Caucasus and i don't know who you make reference to, i dont have any relation with anybody here. Secondly i'm not neo-nazi, neither racialist or racist, i might be xenophobic in certain situations. Thanks for the apologize and i apologize too for " all the times ". For the dark skin thing or even that Yamnaya guys were black haired, i dont have problems with that, i'm myself dark haired and dark eyed. But, im too curious for " dark skined, blue eyed " i want to know exactly how ancient people looked like, what kind of skin color or what kind of blue eyes were everything originate and how it propagate, not for ideologic reasons but only for representations of ancient humans. I'm sorry for the message that this guy send you, even though i think you can be extreme sometimes in the way you deal for exemple with amateurs like me, i would note send you some kind of ridiculous hateful messages. Sorry.
    Great. I'm glad to hear all of this. I just wanted you to understand what we deal with here on a daily basis. Again, I apologize for misjudging you.

    I think it's natural as human beings to want to know what other human beings look like, especially those who were our ancestors. Unfortunately, all we can do is go on the few snps we have confidence had a certain impact, and reconstructions from bones. I don't think any of them are exact, but having worked with forensic specialists who do these kinds of reconstructions, they're often at least generally correct, so I think perhaps we can say that our Mesolithic European ancestors seemed to have very robust bones, wide strong jaws, wide, sharp cheekbones etc. The European Neolithic farmers, although mixed with WHG, seemed to have relatively longer, slightly softer faces, with cheekbones that are usually "flatter". However, that's not always true. Look at Otzi. The admixture changed his head shape and cheekbones as well.



    And you're right: the phenotypes persist.Tyrolean rifleman who looks like Otzi.jpg




    The best invention scientists could come up with, imo, after curing terrible diseases, is a time machine. I'd take substantial risks to try it. :) I would so like to know what all of these people were like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I abjure and abhore violence, halfalp, so you would be safe from me.
    However, I'm certainly not one of those people who can only be direct and even confrontational behind a keyboard. One of your Balkan compatriots sent me a scurrilous, disgusting pm this morning, out of nowhere I might add. I don't know whether I was supposed to be hurt, scared, or angry. I was amused. As I told him, in one of my prior professions I destroyed three "tough" guys like him before breakfast. He got banned for his little attempt at projecting machismo.
    This post of yours actually shows a good sense of humor. Maybe I came down on you too hard. I'm just tired of perpetually having to deal with t-rolls from Neo-racist sites who spout the same a-scientific stuff over and over again. If you're not one of them, I apologize.
    I picked up on your use of the word "amused" and so I guess even you yourself find some of these t-rolls entertaining as I often do. I'm not referring to the real wild junk dogs like seanp or others who posted here with their blatant hatred, I'm referring to the real clowns with their laughable theories such as Egyptians having connections with ruff rydaz from the Steppe or the ones who claim to be of a certain ethnicity yet they act so overly stereotypical that it comes into question (like someone posting as username "Emilio", location is "Uzbekistan" and he "sounds" like super Mário when he posts lol-he makes it blatantly obvious he's not Italian). I also enjoy the ones who don't seem smart enough to fool a child, I laughed really hard after some guy copy pasted descriptions of other components from living DNA and claimed that that's how it described the north Italian component! That was classic.
    It's cool that you worked with forensic scientists btw

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    And you're right: the phenotypes persist.Tyrolean rifleman who looks like Otzi.jpg
    That guy just look like a hell of a lot of Swiss men, especially in German Switzerland, but also in the French part ( where i come from ) he must be Tyrolian from Austria or North Italy, Bavarian or from Appenzell in Switzerland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    And you're right: the phenotypes persist.Tyrolean rifleman who looks like Otzi.jpg That guy just look like a hell of a lot of Swiss men, especially in German Switzerland, but also in the French part ( where i come from ) he must be Tyrolian from Austria or North Italy, Bavarian or from Appenzell in Swiss.
    He's from the Austrian Tyrol, I believe, not that it matters. It's a pretty common phenotype, and I don't know how anyone could miss the resemblance to Otzi. The only big difference is the red hair.

    It's a bit related to Tyrolean "Dinaric", I think, which is also pretty common down into northern Italy.




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    @ 35 seconds, they explain her mouth looked different at birth. But her jaw was moved forward, as they speculate she utilized it as a sort of tool.

    1 and a half meters tall, so she was about 4 foot 9 inches I believe.

    Here diet was transitional between that of a hunter-gatherer, and an agricultural diet according to the video.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Great. I'm glad to hear all of this. I just wanted you to understand what we deal with here on a daily basis. Again, I apologize for misjudging you.

    I think it's natural as human beings to want to know what other human beings look like, especially those who were our ancestors. Unfortunately, all we can do is go on the few snps we have confidence had a certain impact, and reconstructions from bones. I don't think any of them are exact, but having worked with forensic specialists who do these kinds of reconstructions, they're often at least generally correct, so I think perhaps we can say that our Mesolithic European ancestors seemed to have very robust bones, wide strong jaws, wide, sharp cheekbones etc. The European Neolithic farmers, although mixed with WHG, seemed to have relatively longer, slightly softer faces, with cheekbones that are usually "flatter". However, that's not always true. Look at Otzi. The admixture changed his head shape and cheekbones as well.



    And you're right: the phenotypes persist.Tyrolean rifleman who looks like Otzi.jpg




    The best invention scientists could come up with, imo, after curing terrible diseases, is a time machine. I'd take substantial risks to try it. :) I would so like to know what all of these people were like.
    That guy looks like he could be Otzi's twin, with the only exception being the hair color.

    They should have gotten this guy to play him in the upcoming movie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    @ 35 seconds, they explain her mouth looked different at birth. But her jaw was moved forward, as they speculate she utilized it as a sort of tool.

    1 and a half meters tall, so she was about 4 foot 9 inches I believe.

    Here diet was transitional between that of a hunter-gatherer, and an agricultural diet according to the video.
    Thanks, Jovialis, now her looks make more sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Thanks, Jovialis, now her looks make more sense.
    I find it interesting that they had suggested the jaw was possibly used for a skill comparable to that of how the Eskimos soften seal skin. Perhaps if we find more skulls that are similar, it may suggest what the roles of individuals within some Mesolithic societies were.

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    Actually i have exactly the same sad mouth as her that give me like a " hard " face, i have a low jaw prognathisme and she seems to have it too, dont know if its related, but the tool thing seems strange, because prognathisme is a pretty common thing in ancient and modern population, that give some weird face and mouth. What !!! 4 feet 9 ? it gives 144 cm, this less than Danny DeVito that is i think medically considered as a dwarf.

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    In regards to the jaw, I also wonder if it could be a result of some kind of cultural body modification. Many tribal societies practice various forms of body and face modification still to this day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    @ 35 seconds, they explain her mouth looked different at birth. But her jaw was moved forward, as they speculate she utilized it as a sort of tool.

    1 and a half meters tall, so she was about 4 foot 9 inches I believe.

    Here diet was transitional between that of a hunter-gatherer, and an agricultural diet according to the video.
    There is one serious mistake in the video you linked here: they say that dying at 15-19 years old that girl probably lived the average lifespan of a woman at that historic period. That's of course not true, because even the average life expectancy is estimated to have been 25-30 for hunter gatherers, and if we discount the infant mortality (certainly higher than 30%), then that girl, who survived childhood, was expected to live up to 40-50 years, not 15-19. It's annoying how often relevant media outlets keep spreading this myth about the life expectancy of people in ancient times.

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    I think the extra strong jaw muscles allowed her to easily chew through tree bark as well as giving her an advantage in combat

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    There is one serious mistake in the video you linked here: they say that dying at 15-19 years old that girl probably lived the average lifespan of a woman at that historic period. That's of course not true, because even the average life expectancy is estimated to have been 25-30 for hunter gatherers, and if we discount the infant mortality (certainly higher than 30%), then that girl, who survived childhood, was expected to live up to 40-50 years, not 15-19. It's annoying how often relevant media outlets keep spreading this myth about the life expectancy of people in ancient times.
    The reports say she didn't die a violent death. So perhaps it could have been from disease? Perhaps even something like malnourishment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    I think the extra strong jaw muscles allowed her to easily chew through tree bark as well as giving her an advantage in combat
    Chew through tree bark??? How come? Why would she do that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Chew through tree bark??? How come? Why would she do that?
    I think I read that humans used to have bigger stronger jaws to bite through tree bark for consumption. I can't think of any other reason why her jaw is that way besides it being some sort of cultural tradition as jovialis pointed out.

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