Mesolithic Greece: Face of 9,000-Year-Old Teenager Reconstructed

It would be nice to know how big she was, especially compared to the average modern European teenage female
 
Hum ! i know thats kind of hard to believe, but i always wonder if local physical traits were in fact very persistent in population at least until the Neolithic. I mean by that whatever the change of autosomal DNA or mtdna and y-chromosome haplogroups over the years, maybe Mesolithic Ukraine for exemple looks physically like Sunghir or Kostenki saying the Vestonice cluster but with addition of new traits. I remember to have see a skull from Schela Cladovei mesolithic looking really similiar to the Oase 1 or for some extend the Skhul and Qafzeh one and another from Eastern European HG looking 80% neanderthal like... I wonder how much is really the change in physical characteristics between a deep population and a newcomer population in paleolithic and mesolithic wich had very low demographics.

But why and how would that happen? Certainly environmental adaptation is a thing, but it'd took at least a few milennia to reproduce the exact or at least similar phenotype of a previous different population in the same territory. Apart from that, we're all shaped by our DNA, so I find it very unlikely that people who underwent an intense change in their autosomal DNA would still look the same.
 
But why and how would that happen? Certainly environmental adaptation is a thing, but it'd took at least a few milennia to reproduce the exact or at least similar phenotype of a previous different population in the same territory. Apart from that, we're all shaped by our DNA, so I find it very unlikely that people who underwent an intense change in their autosomal DNA would still look the same.

What i mean its we do have in Ukraine a gap from 33'000 BC to 9000 BC between two samples, when I2a2 or R1b went to actual Ukraine certainly it was inhabited by successors of Kostenki people, thats where I2a2 and R1b take their U2 mtdna lineage. When they coming in Ukraine, it was not abandonned, because we dont found even in mesolithic ukraine some Kostenki or Vestonice genetic link, doesn't mean that they have not contribute to the Epipaleolithic and Mesolithic newcomers. Actually there is a so huge gap in actual datas that we cant even say that haplogroup I is really an european Paleolithic lineage in all the sample before Magdalenian we only have one I* haplogroup apart of that the majority is roughly of C1a2 and CT. So we can only think with mtdna lineage like U2, U5 and maybe U8. If we assume for exemple that haplogroup U2e might be a direct maternal descendent from the Vestonice cluster, even if we dont found in Mesolithic population admixture of the Vestonice Cluster, we still know that every people with that maternal lineage have something of the Vestonice Cluster and so some physical traits. The latter is also more explainable by the fact that autochtones might be more populous than newcomers, so even if newcomers gave their autosomal dna and their lineage, they physical traits might be more oriented with the autochtones.
 
I find this intriguing because the reconstruction, if accurate, shows a phenotype different from the two we've already seen.

Ignore the pigmentation, because these were done before we had ancient dna results.

Mesolithic European woman from the Netherlands:
f936e292c846ea711154c3a5b9055f63.jpg


2334d8c5a0f081505ce8892d640c37f1965fa43c


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"Neolithic European"...

This one is 4000 BC from Wales:
Stone_Age_Man.jpg


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Either these Mesolithic Greek people were a mix, or they were just a different local type.

I do agree that certain facial traits may persist even if the autosomal make up undergoes some changes.

This is the reconstruction of a woman at the English colony of Jamestown.

5bdac05ad6d3616cab45f445b24010f9--historic-jamestowne-jamestown-colony.jpg
 
I never fully understand the paleolithic and mesolithic dark skin of european, i remember have seen an article who pretends that it was the african dark skin, but whatsoever i saw some time ago this virtual reconstruction of the two young people from Sunghir and i kind of like the rendering. 37301583890_9658d2131b_b.jpg
 
I never fully understand the paleolithic and mesolithic dark gskin of european, i remember have seen an article who pretends that it was the african dark skin, but whatsoever i saw some time ago this virtual reconstruction of the two young people from Sunghir and i kind of like the rendering. View attachment 9695

i think it's due to the hunter gatherers not getting vitamin d from food (dairy products) so they needed darker skin to absorb sun rays, though I could be wrong. The Stuttgart lady was pale as a cloud.
 
i think it's due to the hunter gatherers not getting vitamin d from food (dairy products) so they needed darker skin to absorb sun rays, though I could be wrong. The Stuttgart lady was pale as a cloud.

Yes maybe, but Bushmen live in one of the most arid place in the world the Kahalari and they are pretty decomplexed.
 
i think it's due to the hunter gatherers not getting vitamin d from food (dairy products) so they needed darker skin to absorb sun rays, though I could be wrong.
Dark-skinned people produce vitamin D more slowly than light-skinned people, because melanin aborbs UV radiation that could have been absorbed by protovitamin D.

Natural dairy products contain little vitamin D, in North America vitamins are added to milk for public health reasons. The greatest amount of natural vitamin D is in fish, especially salmon; for land animals organ meat and fat has the most, dairy and muscle meat have little. Egg yolk is also pretty good. Actual vitamin D content varies a lot depending on what the animal ate and so forth. http://advances.nutrition.org/content/4/4/453.full
 
I never fully understand the paleolithic and mesolithic dark skin of european, i remember have seen an article who pretends that it was the african dark skin, but whatsoever i saw some time ago this virtual reconstruction of the two young people from Sunghir and i kind of like the rendering. View attachment 9695

No one is pretending anything: alleles for paler skin are either present or they're not present. Also, I'm not aware of any scientific paper or article stating that Mesolithic West Europeans had "African" dark skin as in, i.e. Nigerian skin color.

What the scientists are saying, roughly, is that it is highly likely that a person with derived snps in SLC24A5 and SLC 45A2 would be "fairer" than people with ancestral values. If and until we learn otherwise it is what it is.

slc24a5-rs2433354-frequencess.jpg


slc45a2.jpg




Nor is it material what reconstructions, made by people before we had that knowledge, we prefer.

As for southern African populations with slightly lighter pigmentation, of course, they're at a different latitude, not equatorial. Also, there has been a genetic inflow of derived snps into these populations.

See: Brenna Henn et al, "Rapid Evolution of Lighter Skin Pigmentation in Southern Africa"

http://meeting.physanth.org/program...ter-skin-pigmentation-in-southern-africa.html

"Skin pigmentation is under strong directional selection for reduced melanin density in northern European and Asian populations. Conversely, dark pigmentation is thought to be under stabilizing selection in equatorial populations exposed to intense ultraviolet radiation. We high-throughput sequenced pigmentation genes in over 400 individuals from South Africa and demonstrate that a canonical skin pigmentation gene, SLC24A5, experienced recent adaptive evolution in the KhoeSan populations of far southern Africa. The functionally caustive allele lightens basal skin pigmentation by 4 melanin units, explaining 11.9% variance in pigmentation in these populations. Haplotype analysis and demographic models indicate that the allele was introduced into the KhoeSan only within the past 3,000 years likely by eastern African pastoralists. The most common haplotype is shared among the KhoeSan, eastern Africans and Europeans but has risen to a frequency of 25%, far greater than expected given initial gene flow. The SLC24A5 locus is a rare example of strong, ongoing adaptation in very recent human history."
 
No one is pretending anything: alleles for paler skin are either present or they're not present. Also, I'm not aware of any scientific paper or article stating that Mesolithic West Europeans had "African" dark skin as in, i.e. Nigerian skin color.

What the scientists are saying, roughly, is that it is highly likely that a person with derived snps in SLC24A5 and SLC 45A2 would be "fairer" than people with ancestral values. If and until we learn otherwise it is what it is.

slc24a5-rs2433354-frequencess.jpg


slc45a2.jpg




Nor is it material what reconstructions, made by people before we had that knowledge, we prefer.

As for southern African populations with slightly lighter pigmentation, of course, they're at a different latitude, not equatorial. Also, there has been a genetic inflow of derived snps into these populations.

See: Brenna Henn et al, "Rapid Evolution of Lighter Skin Pigmentation in Southern Africa"

http://meeting.physanth.org/program...ter-skin-pigmentation-in-southern-africa.html

"Skin pigmentation is under strong directional selection for reduced melanin density in northern European and Asian populations. Conversely, dark pigmentation is thought to be under stabilizing selection in equatorial populations exposed to intense ultraviolet radiation. We high-throughput sequenced pigmentation genes in over 400 individuals from South Africa and demonstrate that a canonical skin pigmentation gene, SLC24A5, experienced recent adaptive evolution in the KhoeSan populations of far southern Africa. The functionally caustive allele lightens basal skin pigmentation by 4 melanin units, explaining 11.9% variance in pigmentation in these populations. Haplotype analysis and demographic models indicate that the allele was introduced into the KhoeSan only within the past 3,000 years likely by eastern African pastoralists. The most common haplotype is shared among the KhoeSan, eastern Africans and Europeans but has risen to a frequency of 25%, far greater than expected given initial gene flow. The SLC24A5 locus is a rare example of strong, ongoing adaptation in very recent human history."

Yes when i say pretend it's juste like that. But the article i'm refering to was this one https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulro...blue-eyes-and-dark-african-skin/#4468c709791d. At the time, in 2014 it was the top article when i wright dark skin, blue eyed in google.
 
Yes when i say pretend it's juste like that. But the article i'm refering to was this one https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulro...blue-eyes-and-dark-african-skin/#4468c709791d. At the time, in 2014 it was the top article when i wright dark skin, blue eyed in google.

Sorry that reality upsets your prejudices. Deal with it.

If all you read is "news" articles and not scientific papers, that explains your lack of knowledge about the topic.

"Angela: Also, I'm not aware of any scientific paper or article stating that Mesolithic West Europeans had "African" dark skin as in, i.e. Nigerian skin color. "
 
Sorry that reality upsets your prejudices. Deal with it.

If all you read is "news" articles and not scientific papers, that explains your lack of knowledge about the topic.

It was in 2014, i was not even on Eupedia at the time. Jeez ! Still happy it's just internet, irl i have the impression that you would kick my ass for such a bloomer.
 
It was in 2014, i was not even on Eupedia at the time. Jeez ! Still happy it's just internet, irl i have the impression that you would kick my ass for such a bloomer.

I abjure and abhore violence, halfalp, so you would be safe from me. :)

However, I'm certainly not one of those people who can only be direct and even confrontational behind a keyboard. One of your Balkan compatriots sent me a scurrilous, disgusting pm this morning, out of nowhere I might add. I don't know whether I was supposed to be hurt, scared, or angry. I was amused. As I told him, in one of my prior professions I destroyed three "tough" guys like him before lunch. He got banned for his little attempt at projecting machismo.

This post of yours actually shows a good sense of humor. Maybe I came down on you too hard. I'm just tired of perpetually having to deal with t-rolls from Neo-racist sites who spout the same a-scientific stuff over and over again. If you're not one of them, I apologize.
 
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I abjure and abhore violence, halfalp, so you would be safe from me. :)

However, I'm certainly not one of those people who can only be direct and even confrontational behind a keyboard. One of your Balkan compatriots sent me a scurrilous, disgusting pm this morning, out of nowhere I might add. I don't know whether I was supposed to be hurt, scared, or angry. I was amused. As I told him, in one of my prior professions I destroyed three "tough" guys like him before breakfast. He got banned for his little attempt at projecting machismo.

This post of yours actually shows a good sense of humor. Maybe I came down on you too hard. I'm just tired of perpetually having to deal with t-rolls from Neo-racist sites who spout the same a-scientific stuff over and over again. If you're not one of them, I apologize.

Ok first, i'm Swiss not Balkanic, even if physically one could say i look Balkanic or from the Caucasus and i don't know who you make reference to, i dont have any relation with anybody here. Secondly i'm not neo-nazi, neither racialist or racist, i might be xenophobic in certain situations. Thanks for the apologize and i apologize too for " all the times ". For the dark skin thing or even that Yamnaya guys were black haired, i dont have problems with that, i'm myself dark haired and dark eyed. But, im too curious for " dark skined, blue eyed " i want to know exactly how ancient people looked like, what kind of skin color or what kind of blue eyes were everything originate and how it propagate, not for ideologic reasons but only for representations of ancient humans. I'm sorry for the message that this guy send you, even though i think you can be extreme sometimes in the way you deal for exemple with amateurs like me, i would note send you some kind of ridiculous hateful messages. Sorry.
 
Ok first, i'm Swiss not Balkanic, even if physically one could say i look Balkanic or from the Caucasus and i don't know who you make reference to, i dont have any relation with anybody here. Secondly i'm not neo-nazi, neither racialist or racist, i might be xenophobic in certain situations. Thanks for the apologize and i apologize too for " all the times ". For the dark skin thing or even that Yamnaya guys were black haired, i dont have problems with that, i'm myself dark haired and dark eyed. But, im too curious for " dark skined, blue eyed " i want to know exactly how ancient people looked like, what kind of skin color or what kind of blue eyes were everything originate and how it propagate, not for ideologic reasons but only for representations of ancient humans. I'm sorry for the message that this guy send you, even though i think you can be extreme sometimes in the way you deal for exemple with amateurs like me, i would note send you some kind of ridiculous hateful messages. Sorry.

Great. I'm glad to hear all of this. I just wanted you to understand what we deal with here on a daily basis. Again, I apologize for misjudging you.

I think it's natural as human beings to want to know what other human beings look like, especially those who were our ancestors. Unfortunately, all we can do is go on the few snps we have confidence had a certain impact, and reconstructions from bones. I don't think any of them are exact, but having worked with forensic specialists who do these kinds of reconstructions, they're often at least generally correct, so I think perhaps we can say that our Mesolithic European ancestors seemed to have very robust bones, wide strong jaws, wide, sharp cheekbones etc. The European Neolithic farmers, although mixed with WHG, seemed to have relatively longer, slightly softer faces, with cheekbones that are usually "flatter". However, that's not always true. Look at Otzi. The admixture changed his head shape and cheekbones as well.

095557704-4245d38e-86c8-497d-a595-3c2c9e64f07e.jpg


And you're right: the phenotypes persist.Tyrolean rifleman who looks like Otzi.jpg
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The best invention scientists could come up with, imo, after curing terrible diseases, is a time machine. I'd take substantial risks to try it. :) I would so like to know what all of these people were like.
 
I abjure and abhore violence, halfalp, so you would be safe from me. :)
However, I'm certainly not one of those people who can only be direct and even confrontational behind a keyboard. One of your Balkan compatriots sent me a scurrilous, disgusting pm this morning, out of nowhere I might add. I don't know whether I was supposed to be hurt, scared, or angry. I was amused. As I told him, in one of my prior professions I destroyed three "tough" guys like him before breakfast. He got banned for his little attempt at projecting machismo.
This post of yours actually shows a good sense of humor. Maybe I came down on you too hard. I'm just tired of perpetually having to deal with t-rolls from Neo-racist sites who spout the same a-scientific stuff over and over again. If you're not one of them, I apologize.
I picked up on your use of the word "amused" and so I guess even you yourself find some of these t-rolls entertaining as I often do. I'm not referring to the real wild junk dogs like seanp or others who posted here with their blatant hatred, I'm referring to the real clowns with their laughable theories such as Egyptians having connections with ruff rydaz from the Steppe or the ones who claim to be of a certain ethnicity yet they act so overly stereotypical that it comes into question (like someone posting as username "Emilio", location is "Uzbekistan" and he "sounds" like super Mário when he posts lol-he makes it blatantly obvious he's not Italian). I also enjoy the ones who don't seem smart enough to fool a child, I laughed really hard after some guy copy pasted descriptions of other components from living DNA and claimed that that's how it described the north Italian component! That was classic.
It's cool that you worked with forensic scientists btw
 
And you're right: the phenotypes persist.View attachment 9696
That guy just look like a hell of a lot of Swiss men, especially in German Switzerland, but also in the French part ( where i come from ) he must be Tyrolian from Austria or North Italy, Bavarian or from Appenzell in Switzerland.
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And you're right: the phenotypes persist.View attachment 9696 That guy just look like a hell of a lot of Swiss men, especially in German Switzerland, but also in the French part ( where i come from ) he must be Tyrolian from Austria or North Italy, Bavarian or from Appenzell in Swiss.
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He's from the Austrian Tyrol, I believe, not that it matters. It's a pretty common phenotype, and I don't know how anyone could miss the resemblance to Otzi. The only big difference is the red hair.

It's a bit related to Tyrolean "Dinaric", I think, which is also pretty common down into northern Italy.

8441840851236373123


15gcac8.png
 

@ 35 seconds, they explain her mouth looked different at birth. But her jaw was moved forward, as they speculate she utilized it as a sort of tool.

1 and a half meters tall, so she was about 4 foot 9 inches I believe.

Here diet was transitional between that of a hunter-gatherer, and an agricultural diet according to the video.
 

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