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Thread: R1b from Italy Ethnopedia

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    R1b from Italy Ethnopedia

    The Ethnopedia page just posted this map of different clades of R1b in Italy. They said it is based on 915 samples with the undetermined "R1b" in the middle
    being from people who did a test but didn't have any deeper analysis beyond R1b.




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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    The Ethnopedia page just posted this map of different clades of R1b in Italy. They said it is based on 915 samples with the undetermined "R1b" in the middle
    being from people who did a test but didn't have any deeper analysis beyond R1b.




    Link to their page on FB: https://web.facebook.com/ethnopedia/...type=3&theater
    The DF 27 in Piemonte and Liguria would correlate with the higher "Iberian" autosomal percentages there.

    The lower U152 in certain areas in the north is, I think, because of later intrusion by lineages like U-106 and I1.



    Wouldn't it be a kick if the Etruscans carried R1b Z2103, the "Yamnaya" lineage? I've always thought that was a possibility, and that this could be the lineage which brought the Greek speaking language to Greeece, as well. I doubt it was R1a, although ancient dna has taught us that anything is possible. It would, however, explain the higher "steppe" in Toscana than in Lombardia too.

    I don't understand the R1b U106 map. The Lombards were in Toscana as well as Umbria.

    The U-152 map looks about as expected except that it doesn't show that the northwestern part of Toscana has the highest rates of U-152 in Italy, and perhaps in Europe. The Bertoncini et al paper I recently posted shows 78% U152 in some of the hinterland areas of Lucca, particularly near Sant Anna de Stazzema, site of one of the biggest World War II atrocities in Italy.

    http://www.pagepressjournals.org/ind...File/4087/3590

    They don't look any different to me from the people of surrounding areas, although as you go south in Toscana, the phenotypes do change a bit.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3KuCfASS8c


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    I AM Y R-U152 SUB R-Z43 from italy tuscany prato pistoia florence from many generations

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The DF 27 in Piemonte and Liguria would correlate with the higher "Iberian" autosomal percentages there.

    The lower U152 in certain areas in the north is, I think, because of later intrusion by lineages like U-106 and I1.

    Wouldn't it be a kick if the Etruscans carried R1b Z2103, the "Yamnaya" lineage? I've always thought that was a possibility, and that this could be the lineage which brought the Greek speaking language to Greeece, as well. I doubt it was R1a, although ancient dna has taught us that anything is possible. It would, however, explain the higher "steppe" in Toscana than in Lombardia too.

    I don't understand the R1b U106 map. The Lombards were in Toscana as well as Umbria.

    The U-152 map looks about as expected except that it doesn't show that the northwestern part of Toscana has the highest rates of U-152 in Italy, and perhaps in Europe. The Bertoncini et al paper I recently posted shows 78% U152 in some of the hinterland areas of Lucca, particularly near Sant Anna de Stazzema, site of one of the biggest World War II atrocities in Italy.

    http://www.pagepressjournals.org/ind...File/4087/3590
    Some regions are oversampled, others are undersampled.

    The latest ones.








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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Some regions are oversampled, others are undersampled.

    The latest ones.







    Pretty impressive numbers for R1b in north/central Italy: 60-70%, and also interesting that Toscana is included in that. I think it makes sense, as I had speculated, that the U-106 and I1 eat into the percentages for R1b in the far northeast and northwest.

    The G2a is of two very different kinds, of course: northern and southern, coming with very different migrations.

    R1a and I2 is pretty much a non-factor in Italy, except for recently acquired territories. What was the point of all those lives lost? No aspersions, I just always think of it when I think of those territories.

    A strange one: where's the I1 in the Veneto. The other I1 probably the Lombards in other areas, but what about Apulia? I don't believe in big changes from Viking raids. :)

    Well, as you alluded to, unrepresentative testing can skew things.

    Still interesting, though.

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    Ancient Greek colonists might be one of the reasons why R1b in much lower in Calabria. What do you think?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Ancient Greek colonists might be one of the reasons why R1b in much lower in Calabria. What do you think?
    I hesitate to make too many inferences in terms of Italian genetics given that we have such an amazing paucity of ancient dna. There are a few factors to consider, I think.

    For one thing, the R1b, at least the L11+ R1b, seems to have entered from the north, so I think it may have petered out by the time it reached the south. Then, I think while the R1b was entering from the North during the Bronze Age, more CHG/Iran Neo like ancestry was probably entering from the south. Again, it reached the north, but the biggest impact would have been in the south.

    On top of that, you have the Celtic migrations of the first millennium BC, and the Lombards of the post invasion period, both of which would have impacted the north more than the south in terms of folk migrations, if not elite movement. In the south in the same first millennium BC you have Greek migrations. I don't know to what extent some Byzantine influence might show up although I'm always leery, and I think the science has borne this out, of military groups having a big impact genome wide.

    So, I think there are a lot of possibilities, involving a lot of factors.

    It's undeniable that even today Southern Italians and Sicilians and Greeks cluster together to some degree. Some testing companies cluster them together as one component. Also undeniable from recent papers, Southern Italians and Sicilians are quite similar to Mycenaeans. Is that because of heavy migration from Greece to Italy, or because the two areas share ancestry going all the way back to the Neolithic and the Bronze Age? Or is it both, with one being stronger than the other.

    I don't think there's any way to know if and until we get ancient genomes from inhabitants of Southern Italy from the same period as the earliest Mycenaean cities, first millennium BC. Greeks from areas which sent out colonies, Southern Italians before and after their arrival, etc.

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