Which of German death camps was Polish ???

[Tomenable]

Authun says that France also had a similar dispute with Israel over the scale of French complicity in the Holocaust. So it is nothing new. But in case of Poland, it could not take place earlier, because we were behind the Iron Curtain. So Israel and American Jews were free to bash Poles, and Poland - unlike France - could not defend itself against allegations, back then.

 

[Angela]

^^You are mis-stating the content of the law. It is not just about punishing anyone calling the extermination camps "Polish death camps".
"Just before International Holocaust Remembrance Day, the lower house of the Polish parliament voted in favor of a bill that condemns anyone who acknowledges Polish complicity in the Holocaust to up to three years in prison."

So, anyone who says that some Poles turned in Jews, or rounded them up,(things which were done in most European countries to one degree or another) or attacked Jews, or burned Jews alive in Jedwabne, or attacked and killed some Jews after their return from the camps, things which I fail to see how anyone rational could deny, could be imprisoned for three years.

How could anyone defend this?

As to the point about France, yes, there were French collaborators. It is in fact my belief that Petain's government was collaborationist. The events known as the took place, where women and children were dragged through the streets, deprived of food and water, and later turned over to the Germans to be sent to the camps. In the early years there were French people who didn't want to be reminded of any of that. I don't, however, believe that this is still the case. In fact, what I see instead is all these people claiming they were either in the resistance or helped them, when they did no such thing. The majority of the French people do not, today, deny that there were French people who collaborated in the Holocaust.

This whole situation is awful for both Israel and Poland. What Poles have to understand is that behavior like this will just tend to prove that the more extremist views coming out of Israel are justified. Such behavior damages Poland's reputation, it doesn't help it. It will shine more light on it, not less, and prompt more and more articles like the one below, and anti-Polish attitudes.

See: http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/254...deeper-than-just-its-latest-controversial-law

" also read about efforts by Polish politicians to discredit and silence those who have dared to tell the story of Jedwabne, the site of a particularly egregious pogrom perpetrated by Poles against their Jewish neighbors and culminating in the burning alive of more than 300 Jews in a barn (over 1,500 total were murdered). "

He follows that with descriptions of current Polish "folk" practices about Jews which sound like something out of the Middle Ages.

Then, the most disturbing thing:
"Strangest of all, however, was the Polish state’s approach to the concentration camps themselves. For example, visitors were banned from singing at Auschwitz, and one of our group’s rabbis was briefly detained on-site (and threatened with a letter to the embassy) by a Polish officer for chanting Am Yisrael Chai (“The People of Israel Lives”). At Majdanek, we learned from our tour guide about the gradual replacement of the Jewish survivors’ testimonies that were once displayed at the camp with non-Jewish Polish testimonies. The plaque in the biggest gas chamber, which had once described its use in the mass murder of innocent Jews, had also been replaced with a new sign claiming that the lethal Zyklon B poison was dropped into the Auschwitz-style chamber merely to disinfect clothing. Meanwhile, the Majdanek site administration had dramatically reduced its estimates of how many Jews were murdered in that camp. Thus the administration of the Majdanek site, over time, seems to have moved toward the erasure of Jewish experiences and the distinctly Jewish history of the Holocaust."

This is outright Holocaust denial, which is punishable in Germany, but government policy in Poland, apparently.

I hope responsible Poles will try to change direction, or this will not rebound to Poland's benefit.

 

[matbir]

First of all, you said: "I think he meant that all of the extermination camps were set up in Poland, and often guarded or manned by Poles"
So I asked you to prove it, and you failed. Just admit that you made it up or repeated by someone who did this.
This is made up argument, because contrary to the rest of Europe there was no one Polish who voluntarily joined Wafen-SS.The only people who served there ware Polish from western Poland that was incorporated to Germany and these people were classified as "worth to be Germanized" and forced to join. BTW they were not recognized as Polish by Nazi government.

For the record, I am totally unconvinced by the nonsense in the Wiki articles on the subject. It's clear that Polish nationals completely reworked the material. This is one glaring example of the kind of sophistry on display.

" Belief in the Żydokomuna stereotype, combined with the German Nazi encouragement for expression of anti-Semitic attitudes, was a principal cause of massacres of Jews by gentile Poles in Poland's northeastern Łomża province in the summer of 1941, including the massacre at Jedwabne.^[87][88]"

So, in the instances where the facts are so glaringly obvious that no denial is possible it's some gobbledigook about the "Zydojomuna" stereotype and the Nazi "encouragement" that was to blame for the atrocities, not the Polish citizens who committed the acts. Is anyone with a brain in his head supposed to take that seriously? It's a joke. Who was to blame for the atrocities against Jews after the poor survivors returned from the camps? Come on, there must be someone who can be blamed besides Poles.

Please give me the link where does this fragment come from.
Actually this quote is truth, and it is not joke. For the beginning I recommend to try to understand what is written. Pogrom in Jedwabne took place just before Germans decided to close Jews in ghettos (1941). So these Jews ware not holocaust survivors. Second thing is that all incidents where Jews ware victims in 1941 happened in eastern Masovia/Podlachia. Exactly in the area which was occupied by USSR from October 1939. Jews were accused for collaboration with communists by Polish civilians and German authorities witch announced information about Soviet crimes, especially by accusing Jews of murders of detained o despaired Polish during soviet occupation.

Here is quote (I translated it from Polish to English using Google translator):
Historian M.J. Chodakiewicz in the book published by the Institute of National Remembrance in 2008 notes: "There are currently three main approaches to the Jedwabne case. The first recognizes that the crime was carried out by a large German unit with a small participation of Poles. According to the second, the Polish part of the town's inhabitants spontaneously murdered Jewish neighbors, burning them in the barn without the slightest participation of the Germans. The third maintains that although some Poles actually participated in spending Jews on the market, their role in setting the barn on fire was unclear. According to the last scenario, the direct participation of Germans played an important, if not the first-rate role in the development of events. Recent studies allow to reject the first approach and doubt the validity of the second approach, but need more evidence to determine the participation of Poles and Germans ", MJ Chodakiewicz, After the Holocaust. Polish-Jewish relations 1944-1947

There ware at list 340 victims.

Or, let's take the statistics that supposedly show lack of collaboration with the Germans. It was collected by Polish Courts after the war, with no other input. Clearly, in their minds, Jews weren't Poles. Informing on them to the Germans, handing them in for a few potatoes, rushing into their homes to steal their goods, stealing their businesses, taking gold and jewels to hide them and then turning them in anyways, attacking them physically even as they were being marched away, wouldn't have been seen as collaboration with the Germans, so, of course it wasn't counted.

There is nothing to count, always there are some criminals in society, but under German occupation they ware unpunished, so they did their work. But as I mentioned before Polish Underground State organized punishments for them. Until spring 1943 the punishment for szmalcownik (person who took payment form Jews for not turning them to Germans) was shaving ones head, in spring 1943 punishment was changed to death penalty.

And this is announcement of Polish underground:
"Every Pole who interacts with their [Germans] murderous action whether by blackmailing or denouncing Jews, whether exploiting their cruel position or participating in looting, commits a grave crime against the rights of the Republic of Poland and will be punished immediately" 18.03.1943 Source: Polish Jews, notebook 24, "Righteous Among the Nations", page 11, article "Death for szmalcowniki" addition to Rzeczpospolita of 23 September 2008.

If you want statistics reed book MJ Chodakiewicz, After the Holocaust. Polish-Jewish relations 1944-1947
According to Chodakiewicz in 1944-1947 between 253 and 615 Jews ware murdered in Poland. He informed that it is just first research in that topic and list is opened. He also commented that the area of research is totally new and undiscovered in 2008. By the time I didn’t see any more research.

So this 200 000 is just bullshit, because it is some kind of unreasonable estimation.

 

[Angela]

Were you there? No. I wasn't either. I didn't, however, pull that statement out of my hat.

See:
http://www.aish.com/ho/i/Polands-Extermination-Camps.html

"Operation Reinhard was the code name given to three extermination camps – Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka – established for the sole purpose of exterminating the approximately two million Jews then living in the General Government district (the unannexed part of Poland taken over by the Germans during World War II.) The guards in all three camps were Soviet prisoners of war or Polish civilians. The SS trained these guards to be ruthless killers."

If you have data which contradicts that, perhaps you should contact them.

There are also numerous testimonies available from people who were in those camps and who maintain that there were Polish guards. I have both read dozens and dozens of them, and met quite a few survivors, and questioned them myself. Remarkably, many of these people are not full of bitterness. Sadness yes, great sadness.

Every other European government had collaborators who aided the Nazis. Only Poland was exempt?

Matbir: contrary to the rest of Europe there was no one Polish who voluntarily joined Wafen-SS.The only people who served there ware Polish from western Poland that was incorporated to Germany and these people were never classified as "worth to be Germanized" and forced to join.

So, there were no Poles who joined the Waffen SS except the Poles who lived in western Poland. OK, that's convincing.

The "fragment", was from a wiki article obviously totally reworked by Polish nationalists. It was completely unbalanced. Since you agree with it, I don't see why I should bother hunting for the citation.

Matbir:Second thing is that all incidents where Jews ware victims in 1941 happened in eastern Masovia/Podlachia. Exactly in the area which was occupied by USSR from October 1939. Jews were accused for collaboration with communists by Polish civilians and German authorities witch announced information about Soviet crimes, especially by accusing Jews of murders of detained o despaired Polish during soviet occupation."

So, let's see if I get this right: they hated these Jews, killed 1500 of them, including 300 whom they burned alive, not because of "racial" issues, or because they were Christ killers, or used the blood of Christian children to make matzoh, or were too rich and successful, but because Jews were traitors for welcoming Russians. OK, well then, that makes it perfectly fine.

Actually, given that it is still common practice in certain segments of Polish society to do the following, I wouldn't be at all surprised if those Poles in 1941 believed all of the above.

"

"[FONT=&quot]Many superstitious Poles, for example, furnished their households with representations of “lucky Jews,” who, by virtue of their shrewdness with money, were expected to bring fortune to the homeowners. For that reason, street vendors sold cooking utensils featuring Jews with payot, prominent noses, and coins. The walls of a pub/home that my tour group visited were decorated with a portrait of a money-counting Jew among myriad mounted crosses." [/FONT]

In addition, given the horrible laws passed against the Jews by the Polish government, including proposals to ship them all off to Madagascar, I think it would be understandable if some of them welcomed the arrival of the Russian communists, who either didn't or said they didn't treat the Jews in that way. You kick and beat a dog and then you expect loyalty? I don't think so.

BTW, I never said that incident took place after the war. Those were separate instances.

I notice that you don't respond to the rules put into place at the death camps.

You also don't mention that there are actually Poles in responsible positions who are equating the behavior of the poor Jews forced to work in the crematoria to the brutality of guards who volunteered for their positions. For shame, sir.

"Execution was postponed for a few of the strongest and healthiest who were first exploited as slaves. These so-called Sonderkommando– literally, “special unit”, a term consistent with the Nazi practice of euphemism and deception – were forced to assist in the most dreadful of tasks such as removing their lifeless brethren from the gas chambers, and burning their bodies. The clothing, hair, and personal effects of the victims were collected and sorted by Sonderkommando, and then sent to Germany. "

I have no desire to continue this conversation. I was giving the Polish government the benefit of the doubt, but you have convinced me that the Israelis are absolutely correct about the situation in Poland.

 

[matbir]

As I see, and I know there is big campaign of disinformation led by Jewish elite. I have spoken my mind, why they operate that way - just look at act 447 US senate.
Yair Lapid prominent Israeli politician lied to make worldwide scandal and after him there was lots of provocations did by prominent Jews.

Lahav Harkov Jerusalem Post journalist:


They did not apologise.

Here is Polish act of IPN that is penalizing defamation: read it and say what do you think, and do not repeat lies other says

"Art. 55a. 1. Who, in public and against facts, ascribes to the Polish Nation or Polish State liability or responsibility for the Nazi crimes committed by the Third Reich under Article 6Cards of the International Military Tribunal attached to the international Agreement on the prosecution and punishment of major offenders of the European Axis, signed in London on August 8, 1945 (Dz.U. of 1947 item 367), or for other offenses constituting crimes against peace, humanity or war crimes or otherwise grossly reduce the responsibility of the actual perpetrators of these crimes, is subject to a fine or punishment of imprisonment up to the age of 3. The sentence is given to the public messages.
2. If the perpetrator of the act referred to in paragraph 1 acts unintentionally, is subject to
a fine or imprisonment restriction.
3. Do not commit a crime perpetrator of an offense specified in paragraph 1 and 2, if he has committed this act as part of his artistic or scientific activity."

 

[Litovoi]

The Israeli was probably ironical, using the word Polish in a very broad sense,to designate a Catholic, more precisely, a Catholic from the Holy Roman and Habsburg Empires.
EDIT
It seems that persecuted Jews from the Catholic regions have fled to the Protestant ones (parts of Germany,The Netherlands and England),they were more than welcomed in such an extreme conditions, like The Thirty Years' War.
https://books.google.ro/books?id=ry...ge&q=thirty years war jews protestant&f=false
If the early far-right policies of the 19th were generally Catholic,not the same thing we can say about the Southern German-Austrian-North Italian Fascism-Nazism,where the ideology was way more concentrated,but the proposes even more diverse,for instance,the continuation of destabilizing Southern Italy,a process that starts with the so-called Unification.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulturkampf


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Italy

These unfortunate situations continue even today,with the Italian police harassing people from the above-mentioned areas under the pretext of anti-Mafia movement, not to mention the rejection from the Sanremo festival of a song played in Napoletano by Nino D'Angelo,he reacted promptly, "In Romania people understand my songs without subtitles, the real foreign language for me is Italian."
Speaking of the blond Protestants,they weren't luckier, just that things became reversed:they were setup to kill each other,Prussians and Dutchmen, against the Americans or Britons.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Workers'_Party


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_in_World_War_II

 

[matbir]

Not at all it was action to promote the phrase. about 25 milion peple saw this tweet. I think Lahav Harkov should bepersona non grata in Poland. Here is Beata Biel respons:
"My great grandad died in Auschwitz. He was Polish and murdered by the German Nazis. You are now offending me personally. And the memory of him."
Lahav Harkov:"Germans were killed by Nazis too. Does that mean that I can't say Germans perpetrated the Holocaust? My grandfather's entire family was wiped out. Offended or not, that's not an argument. There was widespread complicity in Poland."
Beata Biel: "name one Polish death camp, just one... And what’s the data for the „widespread complicity”? It’s not just about my personal feeling of being offended. It’s also the thing of historical truth."
https://twitter.com/beatabiel/statu...lskie-oboze-w-sieci-teraz-sie-dziwi-oburzeniu

 

[Angela]

Racism in other parts of the world is not at issue. The thread started by Tomenable refers to accusations of anti-semitism and Holocaust denial in POLAND.

Imo, the posts in this thread prove the opposite of what he intended.

It should be an object lesson. If you can't stand the heat, you shouldn't start a fire.

 

[Tomenable]

Twitter discussion is getting heated and someone mentioned Jewish Nazi collaborators:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stella_Kübler

I wonder if someone estimated how many Jews were denounced by other Jews like her.

Stella Goldschlag alone (one person!) is responsible for ca. 600 - 3,000 Jewish deaths.

 

[Zaste]

It is very stupid to blaime the polish because of a few cases. There is no holocaust denial, they are not responsible for the death camps. He should apologize for lying.

 

[matbir]

I just don't get it. Other countries have admitted their culpability, only Eastern Europeans don't.

I do not know what Eastern Europeans did in that manner, because even Polish researchers have hard time to work with them. Poland did its work and Polish president Alesander Kwaśniewski apologized for what happened in Jedwabne. Even though we do not know exactly what happened there, we have only hypothesis.

See:

http://www.aish.com/ho/i/Polands-Ext...ion-Camps.html

"Operation Reinhard was the code name given to three extermination camps – Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka – established for the sole purpose of exterminating the approximately two million Jews then living in the General Government district (the unannexed part of Poland taken over by the Germans during World War II.) The guards in all three camps were Soviet prisoners of war or Polish civilians. The SS trained these guards to be ruthless killers."

If you have data which contradicts that, perhaps you should contact them.

First comment under article published 6.04.2013 is from 10.11.2013:

"(4) Erick, November 10, 2013 11:02 PM
nationality of the Guards
great article, but it consists of some misleading informations. It says, guards were Soviets POW and Polish civilians. If there were any Soviet POW, they were part of Waffen SS units consisting of Ukrainians or other auxiliary military units volenteering to fight on German side. Polish civilian guards is a more problematic issue. They were citizens of Poland before the German occupation, just like many Arabs are the citizens of Israel today. Those civilian guards were Polish Germans who signed the Volkslist, thus renouncing their allegation to Polish nation. It is like calling Arab terrorists Isrealis, just because they are citizens of Israel. If the article means the infamous Kapos of the camps, they were the prisoners cooperating with nasiz and they could be of any nationality including Jewish. "

Personnel of operation Reinhardt:
https://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/belzec1/bel903.html
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/ar/Trawniki/TRAWNIKI STAFF.html

Certainly there was Ukrainian SS,
Local Polish civilians took part in building barks, after work they ware dismissed. The work was finished by Jews who ware the first gassed there. Sad story.
It is possible that German minority of Poland is responsible for Polish speaking guard.
Actually there was around 700 000 Germans in II Polish Republic.

BTW, I never said that incident took place after the war. Those were separate instances.

Ok, but still there ware not much documented victims of after war violence. I have read article in Gazeta Wyborcza – created by Jew - about situation in Szczecin after 8.05.1945. And if you thing that only Jews ware accused and killed you are wrong! I've read about multiple crimes committed by Russian soldiers, Polish robbers, German Werwolf. Death was very easy that time. One example what stayed in my mind is Polish teenager walked along the street of Szczecin when he was spotted by Russian soldier in the tank. The soldier drove the tank in direction of boy, which tried to run but didn't make it. Soldiers ware never prosecuted because of "diplomacy".
Be careful before you throw accusation, of course there ware incidents like in Kielce but there ware 37 Jewish (including 11 shot to death by Communist militia) and 3 Polish deaths and 35 injured. But tell me where are these 200 000 which Ministry of Education of Israel counted?

I notice that you don't respond to the rules put into place at the death camps.

I remember what I have read in high school - "Zdążyć Przed Panem Bogiem" by Hanna Krall on the basis of interview with Marek Edelman. Two of them Polish Jews and holocaust survivors. Marek Edelman was fighting in uprising in Warsaw Ghetto, he managed to escape form Ghetto and in 1944 he took part along with Poles in Warsaw Uprising, he and his fife friends (Jews) ware provided by Poles with false documents, so that they survived war.
In death camps relations were different, people ware provided with 300 kcal per day. Germans mastered their way to make human behave like animals. Hungry person is going to do lots of things to get extra piece of bread. Death camp was meant to kill people, so if someone had enough strength to oppose he was killed like a rat. So the only people who survived worked - taking luggage, cloths from transported Jews and throwing their corpses to crematory.
Please be consequent, ale you able to condemn person who did something bad in that conditions?
Just look what you written below.

You also don't mention that there are actually Poles in responsible positions who are equating the behavior of the poor Jews forced to work in the crematoria to the brutality of guards who volunteered for their positions. For shame, sir.

I don't because such thing never happened. This is third lie you say or repeat after someone.
But I know what this lie is referring to. Adrian Klarenbach journalist of TVPinfo asked Rabin Szalom Ber Stambler if there ware szmalcowniki during war?

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1824888637535825

A. Klarenbach: Ware there any Jews who sold other Jews?
Rabin: I do not know. It doesn’t' account to any category (Literally: to nie przechodzi do żadna rubryka). It is wiser not to mention it, because it is not comparable.

The thing is that there ware infamous people among Jews who turned their brothers to hands of Germans in order achieve protection, these happened in the civil area (not in camps). Examples Chaim Rumkowski head of council of Elders in the Łódź ghetto, Stella Kubner-Issacksohn - collaborated witch Germans, she informed German authorities about nearly 3000 Jews, Josef Lowenherz chairman of Israelite community in Vienna. Do you know their history?

I have no desire to continue this conversation. I was giving the Polish government the benefit of the doubt, but you have convinced me that the Israelis are absolutely correct about the situation in Poland.

Yes, especially member of Knesset Yair Lapid is correct. Triumph of propaganda!
The problem is that we know two different histories about Europe.


Żegota was the only one in Europe organization that helped Jews in organized manner with cooperation together with Polish Underground State.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Żegota

Poland has also the highest number of Righteous Among the Nations 6706 and this number is rising. Lots of Poles ware killed, because they helped Jews.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Righteous_Among_the_Nations

 

[Angela]

This thread is now closed.