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Thread: The Genetic Prehistory of the Baltic Sea Region

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Has this article been posted yet?

    See:
    https://phys.org/news/2018-01-northe...ealed.html#jCp

    "Surprisingly, the results of the current study show that Mesolithic hunter-gatherers from Lithuania appear very similar to their Western neighbors, despite their geographic proximity to Russia. The ancestry of contemporary Scandinavian hunter-gatherers, on the other hand, was comprised from both Western and Eastern Hunter-Gatherers."

    "
    In the Eastern Baltic, the inhabitants relied solely on hunting, gathering and fishing for another 1000 years. Although some have argued that the use of the new subsistence strategy was a local development by foragers, possibly adopting the practices of their farming neighbors, the genetic evidence uncovered in the present study tells a different story.
    The earliest farmers in Sweden are not descended from Mesolithic Scandinavians, but show a genetic profile similar to that of Central European agriculturalists. Thus it appears that Central Europeans migrated to Scandinavia and brought farming technology with them."

    "Similarly, a near-total genetic turnover is seen in the Eastern Baltic with the advent of large-scale agro-pastoralism. While they did not mix genetically with Central European or Scandinavian farmers, beginning around 2,900 BCE the individuals in the Eastern Baltic derive large parts of their ancestry from nomadic pastoralists of the Pontic-Caspian steppe.

    "Interestingly, we find an increase of local Eastern Baltic hunter-gatherer ancestry in this population at the onset of the Bronze Age," states Alissa Mittnik of the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History, lead author of the study. "The local population was not completely replaced but coexisted and eventually mixed with the newcomers."
    Neat map:



    Interestingly enough, the Popovo sample is J1. That makes two, as Oleni Ostrov was also J1. Assuming that they have no CHG or Basal Eurasian, does that mean that J1 was originally part of the UHG strand in the Middle East?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    [/SIZE]Interestingly enough, the Popovo sample is J1. That makes two, as Oleni Ostrov was also J1. Assuming that they have no CHG or Basal Eurasian, does that mean that J1 was originally part of the UHG strand in the Middle East?
    The Karelia HG J1 would be J1-Y6304 which split from the Satsurblia branch 14,3 ka and with descendants in Finland and Columbia.
    Popovo 2 looks more like pré-J1 (split > 18.5 ka) - as far as the readings are accurate

    anyway, both early splits from the J1 branch

    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i0211/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J1/
    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-sn...-for-popovo-2/

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    The Karelia HG J1 would be J1-Y6304 which split from the Satsurblia branch 14,3 ka and with descendants in Finland and Columbia.
    Popovo 2 looks more like pré-J1 (split > 18.5 ka) - as far as the readings are accurate
    anyway, both early splits from the J1 branch
    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i0211/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J1/
    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-sn...-for-popovo-2/
    So this is really a new J1 not the old one with R1a ? and what do you mean by Columbia ? Now the question is are those J1 came through Caucasus or around the Caspian. Anyway intersting stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    there is no evidence of slav at that time in CWC........it could also be just germanic and baltic
    Ah yes, anything but Slavic.
    That's just a typical fantasy on your part. CWC couldn't be Germanic for a simple reason, Germanic languages belong to a Centum family. CWC were ancestors of Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian. Deal with it. Unless of course, we're still playing with Indo-Germanic fairy tales.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by twójstary View Post
    Ah yes, anything but Slavic.
    That's just a typical fantasy on your part. CWC couldn't be Germanic for a simple reason, Germanic languages belong to a Centum family. CWC were ancestors of Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian. Deal with it. Unless of course, we're still playing with Indo-Germanic fairy tales.
    To be fair CWC couldn't possibly have been Germanic, Slavic or anything. These branches are too late for that. But, yes, probaly CWC spoke the LPIE dialect from which Balto-Slavic, Indo-Iranian and perhaps even also Daco-Thracian came to be many centuries and even milennia later. In my opinion, Germanic is a much trickier thing and it looks related (in isoglosses) both to Balto-Slavic and Italo-Celtic. Considering that genetically the core area of Proto-Germanic has both R1b and R1a in significant percentages, as well as I1, and is very close to the CWC territory, my hypothesis is that Germanic arose from the imposition of a Centum Bell Beaker language onto a former CWC-derived language or maybe just a Centum Bell Beaker language under direct and long influence from neighbnoring CWC languages.

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    R1a-CTS1211 is ca. 37% to 38,5% of all Polish R1a, and R1a is ca. half of all Polish Y-DNA.

    Two ancient samples of CTS1211 have just been published, and they are from Baltic states:

    Lithuania, Spiginas 2, 2130-1750 BC, Baltic_EBA, R1a-Z280>CTS1211+

    Latvia, Kivutkalns 19, 730-400 BC, Baltic_LBA, R1a-Z280>CTS1211>YP1034>Y13467+

    Could ancestors of ca. 1/5 of Polish men originate from Bronze Age Latvia and Lithuania?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Two estimates of percentages of R1a subgroups in Poland (CTS1211 is >1/3 of Polish R1a):

    1. My estimate (I calculated it from FTDNA Projects):

    R1a-M459 - 100,00% (sample size 1208), including:

    ---- M459* - 0,17% (2)
    ---- M198 - 99,83% (1206)
    -------- M198* - 0,17% (2)
    -------- L664 - 0,33% (4)

    -------- Z645 - 99,34% (1200)
    ------------ Z93 - 2,73% (33)
    ------------ Z283 - 96,61% (1167)
    ---------------- Z283* - 0,91% (11)
    ---------------- Z284 - 0,41% (5)

    ---------------- M458 - 46,03% (556), including:
    -------------------- L260 - 24,83% (300)
    -------------------- CTS11962 - 20,45% (247)
    -------------------- other M458 - 0,75% (9)

    ---------------- Z280 - 49,25% (595), including:
    -------------------- CTS1211 - 38,49% (465)
    ------------------------ CTS3402 - 30,05% (363)
    ------------------------ other CTS1211 - 8,44% (102)
    -------------------- Z92 - 9,85% (119)
    -------------------- other Z280 - 0,91% (11)

    2. Estimates of Peter Gwozdz from his website:
    (but this includes Polish Jews with R1a-Y2619)

    http://www.gwozdz.org/Results.html

    R1a-M459 - 100,00% of Polish R1a, including:

    Z93 - 5,25%
    --- Y2619 - 3,03% - typical for Jews CTS6>Y2619 - https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-CTS6/
    --- other Z93 - 2,22%

    M458 - 46,87% of Polish R1a, including:
    ---- L260 - 29,70%
    -------- YP254 - 19,60%
    ------------ Y4135 - 3,43%
    ------------ YP414 - 8,48%
    ---------------- YP610 - 5,66%
    ---------------- YP589 - 2,83%
    ------------ Y2905 - 7,07%
    ---------------- YP1364 - 3,43%
    ---------------- other Y2905 - 3,64%
    ------------ other YP254 - 0,62%
    -------- YP654 - 4,85%
    -------- other L260 - 5,25%
    ---- CTS11962 - 16,57%
    -------- L1029 - 12,53%
    ------------ YP593 - 3,84%
    ------------ YP444 - 2,42%
    ------------ other L1029 - 6,27%
    -------- YP515 - 4,04%
    ---- other M458 - 0,60%

    Z280 - 46,87% of Polish R1a, including:
    ---- CTS1211 - 37,37%
    -------- CTS3402 - 32,12%
    ------------ Y33 - 14,34%
    ---------------- Y2902 - 6,67%
    ---------------- S18681 - 5,05%
    ---------------- L1280 - 2,22%
    ---------------- other Y33 - 0,40%
    ------------ YP237 - 13,54%
    ---------------- YP389 - 4,44%
    ---------------- YP977 - 3,84%
    ---------------- L269 - 2,02%
    ---------------- other YP237 - 3,24%
    ------------ Y2613 - 4,04%
    ---------------- Y2608 - 3,64%
    ---------------- other Y2613 - 0,40%
    ------------ other CTS3402 - 0,20%
    -------- YP343 - 4,04%
    ------------ YP371 - 2,83%
    ------------ other YP343 - 1,21%
    ---- Z92 - 8,48%
    -------- Z685 - 5,66%
    ------------ CTS4648 - 2,83%
    ------------ YP351 - 2,83%
    -------- Z92 type E - 2,42%
    -------- other Z92 - 0,40%

    All other R1a - 1,01%

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    YFull estimates the age of R1a-CTS1211 to be ~4600 years, and TMRCA ~4400 years ago:

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-CTS1211/

    If these estimates are correct, Spiginas2 is not much younger than TMRCA of this subclade.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Already 5 ancient samples of CTS1211 (M558), 2 from Lithuania and 3 from Latvia:

    Spiginas2, 2130-1750 BC, Baltic_EBA, R1a-Z280>CTS1211+
    Spiginas25, 800–545 BC, Baltic_BA, R1a-Z280>CTS1211+

    Kivutkalns222, 805–515 BC, Baltic_BA, R1a-Z280>CTS1211>YP1034>Y13467+
    Kivutkalns19, 730-400 BC, Baltic_LBA, R1a-Z280>CTS1211>YP1034>Y13467+
    Kivutkalns209, 405-230 BC, Baltic_IA, R1a-Z280>CTS1211>YP1034>Y13467+

    In discussion on Anthrogenica, Michał pointed out the frequency of CTS1211 in modern Belarusians and Russians (ca. 1/4 of entire Y-DNA in both cases), and I noticed that CTS1211 was very common among pre-war East Prussias (ca. 1/5 of the entire East Prussian sample of 84 men, so about as common as in Polish people):

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?652...ll=1#post341743

    East Prussian carriers of R1a-CTS1211 (16 people from FTDNA Projects):

    kit E10339 - surname of the oldest known ancestor not given
    kit 85285 - Friedrich Lichtenstein b. in 1870 in Königsberg
    kit 175710 - Georg Glass b. in 1810 in Babanten
    kit 200664 - Simon Netke, b. in 1686 in Königsberg
    kit 165792 - J. M. Sommerfeld, b. in 1750 in Tiegenort
    kit N7393 - Reimer b. in 1720 in Hoppenau
    kit 153224 - Leopold Lau, b. in 1867 in Kompehnen
    kit 275076 - Georg Gottlieb Gutt, b. in 1729 in Brodnica
    kit 71994 - Franz Pallaschke, b. in 1883 in Buddern
    kit 330940 - Friedrich Malesha, b. in 1800 in Soldahnen
    kit 2546 - Johann Piasetzki, b. in 1860 in Sensburg
    kit E4464 - Karl Labinsky b. in 1840 in Trempen
    kit E9666 - J. Pawellek b. in 1853 in Ortelsburg
    kit 426239 - Kalinowski b. in 1878 in Riesenwalde
    kit 131361 - J. Jablonowski, born near Soldau
    kit N18451 - Frank J. Zalewski, b. in 1858 in Gotschalki

    ^^^
    Many of these surnames are purely German rather than Masurian etc., so most likely it is from assimilated Old Prussians. Some of them carry subclades of M558 typical for present-day East Balts.

    But I pointed out the fact, that we don't know which subclades were typical for West Balts, because there is no ancient DNA from East Prussia - so maybe subclades of West Balts were more like these typical for present-day Slavs, than like these typical for present-day Lithuanians and Latvians. The map below shows the breakdown of East Prussian R1a into typically Slavic and typically East Baltic, based on modern frequencies:

    https://s31.postimg.org/mfwjkq5or/Ol...a_surnames.png


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Turlojiske3, Lithuania, Bronze Age, 1010–800 BC, R1a1a1b1a2a-YP617 (Genetiker's calls).

    This is a subclade of Z92>Y4459:

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y4459/

    Basal R-Y4459* has been found in North-Eastern Poland - id:YF10363POL [PL-Podlaskie].

    All of Z92 is about 8.5% to 10% of Polish R1a (and divide in half for % of Polish Y-DNA).

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Kivutkalns153, Latvia, Bronze Age, 800–545 BC, R1a1a1b1a3-YP1370 (a subclade of R1a-Z284).

    I guess this Z284 from Bronze Age Latvia proves that some R1a came to Scandinavia from East Baltic area.

    These are the oldest R1a samples from Scandinavia:

    Sweden RISE94, Viby, Götaland, 2621-2472 BC
    Denmark RISE61, Kyndeløse, Zealand, 2650-2300 BC
    Sweden LNBA, Ölsund, Hälsingland, 2573-2140 BC
    Denmark RISE42, Marbjerg, Zealand, 2191-1972 BC

    As you can see 3 of them are from Southern Scandinavia, but one (Olsund) is from Northern Sweden.

    Olsund individual is discussed in this paper:

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...13241.full.pdfhttps://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...1/113241-1.pdf

    About the origins of Corded Ware culture:

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/1...hungarian.html

    R1a migrated to Scandinavia either from Latvia-Lithuania-Poland by boats across the Baltic Sea, or from Germany (both routes are possible). N1c migrated to Scandinavia much later and probably from Finland-Estonia (ultimately from North-Western Russia).

    Possible routes of R1a migration to Scandinavia with Corded Ware culture (red arrows):

    https://i.imgur.com/GfE3Abm.png



    This paper claims that the Olsund sample was most autosomally most similar to Baltic Bronze Age samples:

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...13241.full.pdf

    CTRL + F type Olsund and find this info.

    Also rock art of native Scandinavians (Non-R1) depicts the arrival of some R1-men by boats.

    Native, Non-IE Scandinavians used to create rock carvings already ca. 6500 years ago.

    They were documenting scenes from everyday life, such as hunting:

    http://www.rockartscandinavia.com/frontpage.phphttp://fri.info.pl/rysunki-naskalne-alta/







    At the beginning of the Metal Ages, completely new motifs appear in Scandinavian rock art. These new carvings depict the arrival - by sea - of large fleets of immigrants, who had the knowledge of metal-working, were armed in battle axes (see: Battle Axe culture) and worshipped foreign deities:

    https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rysunki_naskalne_w_Tanum

    Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ld6Dt-Lce6MVideo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDXQCUpjAyk













    This artwork most likely depicts an Indo-European high priest, an archetype of god Thor:



    ^^^ This is consistent with Oslund R1a man being possibly descended from Baltic Bronze Age immigrants.

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    The oldest known sample of N1c from Europe is dated to ca. 2500 BC, found near Smolensk in Russia. There was no any N1c in Scandinavia at that time, but there was already some in western Russia. Apparently there was also no N1c in Bronze Age Lithuania and Latvia. But despite the lack of ancient samples, some N1c could cross the Ural and enter Europe already ca. 5500 BC (which is the estimated TMRCA for N1c-L708, the most upstream subclade of N1c which exists in Europe - subclades more upstream than L708 can be found only in Asia).

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    What is so surprising in the presence of some EEF among LN Baltic?: first CWC were poor of it, but an almost contemporaneous pop, GAC, has a great load of EEF; GAC people didn' t disappear as by a magic trick; and we have a more powerful culture rich in EEF: Tripolye; borrowing of some tehcnics + borrwing of wives?
    I agree with the people who don't see a link between Germanics and CWC; I see rather a proto-Baltic or Baltic-Slavic element in CWC. The so called 'danubian med' type common among first EEF seems the dominant element among the southern influences on modern pops of N-E Europe, even among Finns. In Steppes, the slight EEF of MBA/LBA element could have more than a region of origin, helas for us. Late exchanges N > S + S > N across Caucasus?
    Unetice was a mixed culture in itself, even if some element dominated, and had spred into local preceding surrounding cultures as well by cultural transmission as by some demic impulse. But the U106 first "babyboomers", I think, were rather in the EastGermany part of the Unetice field (descendants of the famous "Rich Tumuli culture" of the Saale/Thuringen region?

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    1 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by twójstary View Post
    Ah yes, anything but Slavic.
    That's just a typical fantasy on your part. CWC couldn't be Germanic for a simple reason, Germanic languages belong to a Centum family. CWC were ancestors of Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian. Deal with it. Unless of course, we're still playing with Indo-Germanic fairy tales.
    I think you should have said...anything except just Baltic ..............deal with the fact that baltic people where there before germanic and slavic

    Centum and Satem is irrelevant these people lived all over Europe side by side swapping vocabulary, people make too big a deal about it .....especially when they say the ethnicity of people A and ethnicity of people B are the same people and then you throw in , one spoke centum and the other satem,...........they disappear never to be heard of again
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    (...)
    The oldest known sample of R1b-U106 is actually from Corded Ware context in Sweden (or am I wrong)? But the 2nd oldest sample is from Bell Beaker context in the Netherlands:


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I still have a certain feeling that N1c in Baltics arrived just before 0AD. Perhaps related or coincided to downfall of Kivutkalns (R1a - Baltic clades) bronze working center. That is also about when iron working started, but perhaps unrelated events.. khm..

    Edit: honestly, I did not expect Kivutkalns to belong to modern Baltic clades, thought those were extinct R1a groups and Balts arrived there later. Now I am not sure, so just sitting there and observing things :)

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    Sile, you just never give up do you? I know that you're a Balto-Germanic supremacist already lol. But please keep your fantasies to yourself. Balts and Slavs are closer to each other than Balts and Germanics are. Unless of course, you're referring to such prominent figures as Balto-Germanic Alfred Rosenberg. So many years on this forum, yet you're still clueless.

    Btw. Great work as usual Tomenable.
    Last edited by twójstary; 03-02-18 at 00:42. Reason: typo

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    Quote Originally Posted by twójstary View Post
    Sile, you just never give up do you? I know that you're a Balto-Germanic supremacist already lol. But please keep your fantasies to yourself. Balts and Slavs are closer to each other than Balts and Germanics are. Unless of course, you're referring to such prominent figures as Balto-Germanic Alfred Rosenberg. So many years on this forum, yet you're still clueless.
    Btw. Great work as usual Tomenable.
    No I am not, I just detest the untruths of the germans and slavs saying that balts never existed and also trying to eliminate them wherever they are........who do you think was in the middle between the germanics moving east from north germany and denmark and the slavs of the ukraine moving west ...........do you think the area was empty of people !
    do you think the Aestii where slavs or germans? , what about the galindians ..............the old methods of slavs and germans of eliminating the balts are now proven wrong , gimbatus was the first to recognize the balts following ancient historians.
    .
    I just hope you are not one of these that think the slavs or germans have been in poland, old prussia or lithaunia since time began

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    Did I ever say that Balts never existed? Every post of mine mentions BALTO-SLAVS. Not Slavs themselves, but Balto-Slavs. Your hardon for Balto-Germanics seems very weird to me, it was mostly Germanics trying to wipe out Balts from the face of the earth, not Slavs. Balts and Slavs are a family. But let's not pollute this thread even further, great Germanic minds polluted "science" enough already. No need to dig in the past.

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    To everyone, let's keep this discussion civilized.

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    Quote Originally Posted by twójstary View Post
    Did I ever say that Balts never existed? Every post of mine mentions BALTO-SLAVS. Not Slavs themselves, but Balto-Slavs. Your hardon for Balto-Germanics seems very weird to me, it was mostly Germanics trying to wipe out Balts from the face of the earth, not Slavs. Balts and Slavs are a family. But let's not pollute this thread even further, great Germanic minds polluted "science" enough already. No need to dig in the past.
    Balto-slav is not an ethnicity is a linguistic group and we know language and ethnicity never never match

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    The oldest known sample of R1b-U106 is actually from Corded Ware context in Sweden (or am I wrong)? But the 2nd oldest sample is from Bell Beaker context in the Netherlands:

    Yes but two trees don't make a forest. We lack more U106 before to be sure. It's the good aspect of the question; we can still make bets and tries to guess! Today we have too few ancient Y-haplo's of Unetice or of other cultures; the ones we have for Unetice are rather Y-I2 of some sort (I2a2 among them). ATW I think Unetice was a bit heterogenous within it's center, and diverse from site to site (sites labelled as "Unetician").
    These "first" bearers of U106 you cited were already there before Unetice times. Were they the subclades of the core of future Germanics? I don't know; SNP's are not the property of a culture or language or ethny; U106 were found too in Liechtenstein Cave (around 1000 BC) labelled Unstrut or less precisely Urnfield. This region of Germany comprised between Low-Saxony and Thuringen, in a region of contacts (metals ores) had surely seen some overlaps between clannic Y-haplos spite it was rather seldom. I prefer to think the well formed Germanics developped a bit later around the core of the U106 subclades (maybe the same), in a region where Y-I1a and some R1a lineages were not too far and could be integrated later. But CWC as proto-Germanics, to date, I dont believe, but I can be wrong (not the first time).



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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    We lack more U106 before to be sure.
    But isn't RISE98 almost as old as the estimated TMRCA of U106 itself?

    RISE98 is 2275-2032 BC, YFull estimates TMRCA of U106 as 2700 BC:

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-U106/

    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    U106 were found too in Liechtenstein Cave (around 1000 BC)
    I have not seen any evidence that this R1b sample was U106.

    What is your source? It was some R1b, but not necessarily U106.

    ======================

    Do you happen to know what subclades of R1b did they belong to?:

    http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.co...ka-poland.html

    http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.co...g-page_25.html

    Bell Beaker Poland Samborzec [I4253 / RISE1124 / grave no. 13], M, 2571-2208 BCE 452974 SNPs, R1b1a1a2
    Bell Beaker Poland Samborzec [I4251 / RISE1122/ grave no. 7], M, 2400-2200 BCE 80714 SNPs, R1b1a1a2

    Autosomally they were 46% Steppe + 38% Neolithic + 16% HG (see Table S4. in Supplement):

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...1/135962-1.pdf

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...35962.full.pdf

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    @ Tomenable:
    you wrote:
    But isn't RISE98 almost as old as the estimated TMRCA of U106 itself?
    RISE98 is 2275-2032 BC, YFull estimates TMRCA of U106 as 2700 BC:

    I wrote "we lack more U106 before to be sure": maybe my syntax is not good: I would not say "we lack older U106" but "before we can be sure we lack more ancient U106"
    you wrote:
    I have not seen any evidence that this R1b sample was U106.
    What is your source? It was some R1b, but not necessarily U106
    .
    You 're right : it had been supposed it was U106 but it has not been confirmed, surely by lack of good DNA

    you wrote:
    Bell Beaker Poland Samborzec [I4253 / RISE1124 / grave no. 13], M, 2571-2208 BCE 452974 SNPs, R1b1a1a2
    Bell Beaker Poland Samborzec [I4251 / RISE1122/ grave no. 7], M, 2400-2200 BCE 80714 SNPs,
    R1b1a1a2
    I knew that, OK; but what relevance for what I wrote concerning U106?

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    sorry Tomenable: "before we can be sure because we lack more ancient U106"

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