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Thread: The Genetic Prehistory of the Baltic Sea Region

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Balto-slav is not an ethnicity is a linguistic group and we know language and ethnicity never never match
    Ethnicity and language have nothing to do one with another ?
    Ethnicity is a mix of genetic aspects and culture and SELFAPPRECIATION OF IDENTITY -
    a human group, to keep some consistance and to pass some centuries before to die, needs some stability ; from this stability and warrant of this stability is language – genetic aspect is also consequence of this stability but not an evident cause of it – genetic aspect found importance recently in a post-colonial context with phenotypes very different and a population density very bigger than in ancient times.

    languages COLLECTIVE shifts need tight contacts and exchanges OR a very strong network of administrative organisation, but this last aspect was not already the case among the most of ancient ethnic groups -
    - as a result of this (contacts and exchanges, balanced or not), members of the new mixed group with new language are pushed to feel themselves as of the same group as the ones which possessed this language before mixing or imposing this languages along with other things. They adopt the ethnicity of the dominant. Vanquished Gauls feeled themselves Romans some generations after the defeat. Some exceptions exist, like the Franks/Français question, but even here, we see a final fusion of ethnic sentiment, language and in a big part, genetics. So an « elastic » link between these notions, and not a « nothing common ».

    So, Balto-Slavic stage is surely not only a linguistic abstract reconstruction only but also an ancient stage of a pop with flesh, blood and bones. After, things evolved, of course...

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Ethnicity and language have nothing to do one with another ?
    Ethnicity is a mix of genetic aspects and culture and SELFAPPRECIATION OF IDENTITY -
    a human group, to keep some consistance and to pass some centuries before to die, needs some stability ; from this stability and warrant of this stability is language – genetic aspect is also consequence of this stability but not an evident cause of it – genetic aspect found importance recently in a post-colonial context with phenotypes very different and a population density very bigger than in ancient times.

    languages COLLECTIVE shifts need tight contacts and exchanges OR a very strong network of administrative organisation, but this last aspect was not already the case among the most of ancient ethnic groups -
    - as a result of this (contacts and exchanges, balanced or not), members of the new mixed group with new language are pushed to feel themselves as of the same group as the ones which possessed this language before mixing or imposing this languages along with other things. They adopt the ethnicity of the dominant. Vanquished Gauls feeled themselves Romans some generations after the defeat. Some exceptions exist, like the Franks/Français question, but even here, we see a final fusion of ethnic sentiment, language and in a big part, genetics. So an « elastic » link between these notions, and not a « nothing common ».

    So, Balto-Slavic stage is surely not only a linguistic abstract reconstruction only but also an ancient stage of a pop with flesh, blood and bones. After, things evolved, of course...
    Do you feel yourself as an Englishman because you speak English now..........and because you speak English has your ethnicity taken an english ethnicity !?

    How many different ethnicities spoke latin after the Romans took over their lands, how many declared themselves Roman and if so and if you accept this ethnicity then does that not make searching for Roman ethnicity impossible to find?
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Sile, i think what you meant to say was that ethnicity and language don't always match, is this what you were implying?
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    This is beginning to move off-topic. Focus on the content of the paper.

    There's already a thread dedicated to this subject, "What is ethnicity":

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...s-an-ethnicity

    @Davef, you seem to have a habit of galvanizing conflict. STOP IT

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Sile, i think what you meant to say was that ethnicity and language don't always match, is this what you were implying?
    I am saying a very high percentage do not match ...........as an example we have a recent linguistic study that states that Illyrian, Dacian and Thracian languages came from Italo-Celtic linguistic branch of central Europe .........

    And with this , does the linguistic term Italo-Celtic mean all Italian ethnicity has celtic in them!

    .
    .
    I never match any ethnicity with language before the medieval period , and with this start period , it would begin minimally

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Balto-slav is not an ethnicity is a linguistic group and we know language and ethnicity never never match
    I was asked to keep it civil, but you force my hand. How is a Balto-Germanic more of a thing than Balto-Slavic? Ffs, Slavs and Balts share paternal lines, unlike Balts and Germanics. Slavs and Balts share: genetics, language, culture, religion and rituals with each other, unlike Germanics and Balts. Like what's your problem? This seems very personal to you.

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    The next person to step out of line with a provocation will receive the appropriate infraction. This is the final warning.

    To everyone: If you're going to debate; debate the facts. Do not personalize what you're saying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by twójstary View Post
    I was asked to keep it civil, but you force my hand. How is a Balto-Germanic more of a thing than Balto-Slavic? Ffs, Slavs and Balts share paternal lines, unlike Balts and Germanics. Slavs and Balts share: genetics, language, culture, religion and rituals with each other, unlike Germanics and Balts. Like what's your problem? This seems very personal to you.
    i never heard of a balto-germanic group...........what are you fabricating ............

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I knew that, OK; but what relevance for what I wrote concerning U106?
    No relevance, I'm just curious if those Polish Bell Beakers were DF27, U152, U106, etc.

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    I feel that those genetic datas are going too fast, than the archeological datas, between when there was a Baltic Bronze Age ? Is it culturally link with central europe Unetice, R1b people ? Or is it a local developpement from R1a corded people ? Because in my mind, bronze age is still a cultural developpement from a central european R1b tribe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    To everyone: If you're going to debate; debate the facts. Do not personalize what you're saying.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    i never heard of a balto-germanic group...........what are you fabricating ............
    This has not gone unpunished.

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    Question Thinking about thinking

    My earliest path has found me reading and adding this article to Tracing Celtic Genetics: expanding towards the Baltic Seas. I recently started working with OSF as my main base of operations. thanks for your heads up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by twójstary View Post
    Did I ever say that Balts never existed? Every post of mine mentions BALTO-SLAVS. Not Slavs themselves, but Balto-Slavs. Balts and Slavs are a family.
    I am not so sure about Balto-Slavs being a family. At least from 2000BC they split. This is what Encyclopaedia Britanica says on the topic:
    "It is possible to conclude that there was close contact between the Baltic and Slavic protolanguages at the time when they began to develop as independent groups (i.e.,from about the 2nd millennium BC) and that the Proto-Slavic area might have been a part of peripheral Proto-Baltic, although a specific part. That is, Proto-Slavic at that time was in direct contact with both the corresponding dialects of the peripheral Proto-Baltic area (e.g., with Proto-Prussian) and the corresponding dialects of the central Proto-Baltic area. All this shows that the Proto-Slavic area of that time (south of the Pripyat River) was much smaller than the Proto-Baltic area. Proto-Slavic began to develop as a separate linguistic entity in the 2nd millennium BC and was to remain quite unified for a long time to come. Proto-Baltic, however, besides developing into an independent linguistic unit in the 2nd millennium BC, also began gradually to split. "

    https://www.britannica.com/topic/Baltic-languages


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    So what I wanted to point out in relation to this Study is that all the DNA of the metallurgists of the Late Bronze Age in the Eastern Baltic (approximately 1300 to 500 BCE) are rather Proto Baltic but not proto Balto-Slavic, as the languages have separated earlier and the Proto Slavic where likely somewhere else southwards and developing in their own ways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagne View Post
    I am not so sure about Balto-Slavs being a family. At least from 2000BC they split. This is what Encyclopaedia Britanica says on the topic:
    "It is possible to conclude that there was close contact between the Baltic and Slavic protolanguages at the time when they began to develop as independent groups (i.e.,from about the 2nd millennium BC) and that the Proto-Slavic area might have been a part of peripheral Proto-Baltic, although a specific part. That is, Proto-Slavic at that time was in direct contact with both the corresponding dialects of the peripheral Proto-Baltic area (e.g., with Proto-Prussian) and the corresponding dialects of the central Proto-Baltic area. All this shows that the Proto-Slavic area of that time (south of the Pripyat River) was much smaller than the Proto-Baltic area. Proto-Slavic began to develop as a separate linguistic entity in the 2nd millennium BC and was to remain quite unified for a long time to come. Proto-Baltic, however, besides developing into an independent linguistic unit in the 2nd millennium BC, also began gradually to split. "

    https://www.britannica.com/topic/Baltic-languages

    So even though they split from common Balto-Slavic source and Proto Balto-Slavic source before that, perhaps even Central European Corded Ware, Slavs and Balts aren't a family? The only reason for my anger was trying to claim that Balts and Germanics are closer to each other than Slavs and Balts, which is simply ridiculous.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    It is all three - Baltic, Slavic and Germanic developed from the same CWC, only Germanic had mixed with agriculturalists more, while Baltic mixed more with HG, when Slavic had their own way - stayed "hidden" up until 600-800 AD and expanded afterwards. Well, it would be interesting to compare all three cultures at some time in point - 0AD, for instance. But we just don't know the answers. Comparing cultures based on the language similarity or genetic autosomal similarity is not very reliable, is it? For instance, even though Lithuanians autosomally have more HG than EEF, they have still turned into farmers.

    In this respect, influence Western CWC (proto-Germanic) might be very important in turning Baltic nations into what they are now. Before CWC Baltic inhabitants were just pure Hunter Gatherers, and the formation of the Baltic ethnicity as such starts only at the time of the arrival of CWC. However, without the EEF farmer input, the Baltic people could not have turned into Baltic. In this sense, the current theory that EEF part in the Baltic people came through the contacts with the more western CWC (Bell Beaker rich CWC, most probably proto-Germanic) is very important in the formation of the Baltic ethnicity. I am not sure how the formation of the Slavic nations is explained, and where their EEF part was picked up.

    Quite funny, the word for Slavic neighbours in the Lithuanian language is denoted by the word "Gudai" originally meaning Goths, lat. Gotones and only later with the great movement of nations when the Goths were gone and the Slavic arrived in the area, the word picked up the current meaning of Slavic people (Belorussians). Polish people are called "Lenkai" after the Lech.
    Last edited by Dagne; 06-02-18 at 12:40.

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    There is still some Z284 in Lithuania today. Michał posted data from R1a project:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post144601

    Lithuania (n=65)
    Y17491 -1
    M458 - 14
    Z280>CTS1211 - 24
    Z280>Z92 -14
    Z284 - 1
    Z93 - 11

    Latvia (n=14)
    L664 - 1
    M458 - 2
    Z280>CTS1211 - 7
    Z280>Z92 - 1
    Z93 - 3

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    Germanic principally from CWC? Proof??? If I believe what I red (Dagne) proto-Salvic was separated from (Proto-)Baltic since 2000 BC, so I suppose long enough before proto-Germanics (with U106) emerged.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I am saying a very high percentage do not match ...........as an example we have a recent linguistic study that states that Illyrian, Dacian and Thracian languages came from Italo-Celtic linguistic branch of central Europe .........

    And with this , does the linguistic term Italo-Celtic mean all Italian ethnicity has celtic in them!

    .
    .
    I never match any ethnicity with language before the medieval period , and with this start period , it would begin minimally
    sincerely, I have huge doubts about the validity of some new studies in linguistic; "scoops" promotors?
    I think Thracians and Dacians have very little in common with Italic-Celtic... and the Y lineages seems confirm the cut off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Do you feel yourself as an Englishman because you speak English now..........and because you speak English has your ethnicity taken an english ethnicity !?

    How many different ethnicities spoke latin after the Romans took over their lands, how many declared themselves Roman and if so and if you accept this ethnicity then does that not make searching for Roman ethnicity impossible to find?
    Please, let's separate the stage of fresh incorporation in a bigger structure and the bilinguism corresponding to it, or the use of a second "international" language like medieval latin or today english for either commercial or scientific or religious purposes. But at the end, when a group of ethnies finishes speaking only the dominant language, the most often it results after some generations in a common ethnic sentiment having as reference the winners original ethny.

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    Perhaps proto-Baltic was proto-Balto-Slavic at the same time, if we propose Slavic was born by bifurcation after mixings with an other element in the East-Northeast Carpathian zone; some linguists affirm Baltic is more archaic than Slavic; it could go back until their separation in these conditions. I know archaism is not a proof a language has not been learned, often, the center of propagation of a language is the more innovative. BTW, someones said ancient Baltic languages were rather more fragmented than first Slavic ones, spite their so called archaism; it seems to me it confirms Slavic, innovative or not, branched off late enough, concerning a small pop at first, before "baby boom" at a certain point of their history. the innovztions could be the result of the crossing with other pops with other languages-

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    The oldest known sample of R1b-U106 is actually from Corded Ware context in Sweden (or am I wrong)? But the 2nd oldest sample is from Bell Beaker context in the Netherlands:

    I doubt if Rise98 is "hardcore" CW.

    JM on anthrogenica:

    Lilla Bedinge in southern Scania comprises the largest known cemetery associated with the Swedish Battle Axe Culture. The site, extending over an area of about 240×30 m, is located only about 1 km from the present day coast line. The majority of the at least 14 identified and excavated flat earth inhumations graves are located on a NE–SW oriented moraine embankment, whereas four of the graves are found on the flatter grounds to the SE. The site also includes a number of Late Bronze Age cremation graves, and two other find spots for BAC inhumation graves are known in the nearby region....

    Grave 49 was excavated by Hansen 1934. It constitutes a N–S oriented subsurface oval stone construction with pointed edges, measuring about 4.5×2 m, where flat stone slabs form a roof over a chamber with an original height estimated to about 0.6–0.7 m. Fragments of wood indicate the presence of planks in the chamber. On the stone paved floor of the chamber three adult individuals had been placed in a line in sitting crouched positions facing southwest. Between the northern and middle skeleton fragmented remains of three children (initially only two were identified), representing two infants and a juvenile, were recovered. Further, some very brittle diaphyses of a fourth adult have been identified. The only recovered find is a bone needle deposited next to the northern skeleton (Hansen 1934; Malmer 1962:162p ; During unpublished notes). According to Malmer (2002:141) the grave can be dated to Period 4, and an unpublished radiocarbon date from the northern skeleton falls within the interval 2580–1980 cal. BC (2σ, 3850±105 BP, Ua-2758, During unpublished notes).


    http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get...FULLTEXT01.pdf

    When we look at the information about Rise 98 than it's southwest Sweden and it's dated 2580–1980 cal. BC. At that time the Barbed Wire Culture was dominant in Sweden. This is mostly seen at the latest phase of the Bell Beaker culture or piece de resistance. Wiki: 'In east central Sweden and western Sweden, barbed wire decoration characterised the period 2460–1990 BC, linked to another Beaker derivation of northwestern Europe.'


    When we take a look at archeological findings than this correspondences with the work of Vandkilde (2005):
    "The argument can be carried further into a discussion about the presentation of cultural and social identity through materi- al means. Firstly, the boundary between ordinary Late Neolithic Culture and Beaker-enriched Late Neolithic Culture in Jutland coincidences roughly with an older cultural boundary between Single Grave Culture and Funnel-necked Beaker Culture (Glob 1944, fig. 113) in addition to a similar boundary centuries later, c. 1600 BC, between the Valsømagle and the Sögel-Wohlde metalwork styles (Vandkilde 1996, fig. 273, B; 1999 b). All three cases relate to con- texts of general social change. Secondly, it is especially the frequent occurrence of Beaker pottery in settlements that makes the early Late Neolithic boundary distinct (see fig. 9). This tallies with an interpretation of Beaker pottery as first and foremost signalling a large-scaled form of social identity, which we may call cultural identity, or perhaps ethnic identity."
    ....

    "Late Neolithic pottery is lacking in ornamentation, variability and sophistication (e.g. Schiellerup 1991, 48 ff. with references), notabky excepting northern Jutland. The plain pottery known from burials and settlement sites does not exhibit creative efforts and must have held connotations entirely different from, for instance, flint daggers and metal objects. The ware often has a rough texture, the pot wall is often thick, pot shapes are simple, and decoration, if any, consists of incised or impressed 'barbed wire' patterns, horizontal grooves or ridges in addition to an applied thick horizon- tal band below the rim. The subject is difficult due to the fact that Late Neolithic pottery is insufficiently studied, and so far chronological groupings are not distinguishable.
    In east central Sweden and western Sweden, barbed wire decoration characterises the period 2460–1990 BC, whereas pots with a thickly applied clay band – so-called vulst in Danish – date to the period 1950–1780 BC (Holm et al. 1997, 220). Whether the ceramic sequence in central and eastern Denmark holds similar traits remains to be examined."
    That brings us too the the role of Unetice in the paper of this topic:
    Other substantial changes in the mtDNA haplogroup frequency were found in the population associated with the Unetice Culture (UC) that appeared in Central Europe during the EBA; thus, right a er the LN. e UC replaced the BBC and CWC; however, its population did not seem to be a direct genetic continuity of the population associated with the two former cultures. e analysis of mtDNA indicated closer similarity of the UC to CWC rather than to BBC
    And finally this brings us to Quiles:
    Úněticean genetic melting pot strengthens its origin as the vector of cultural diffusion of North-West Indo-European languages, essentially connecting Barbed Wire Beaker cultures from the Low Countries and the Northern Lowlands (and late Nordic Neolithic) – probably speaking languages ancestral to Germanic – with peoples of Southern German cultures, as predecessors of core regions of the Tumulus culture – possibly speaking West Indo-European, i.e. Pre-Italo-Celtic[Mallory 2013].
    This suggests that Únětice connected these with eastern cultures like south-eastern European cultures – heirs of Bell Beaker and Carpathian groups – and the eastern Mierzanowice/Nitra culture – heir of Bell Beaker and Corded Ware groups. Therefore, the language ancestral to Balto-Slavic was probably spoken either by the Únětice population, or by eastern cultures that were connected to western Indo-European languages through Únětice.
    Bell Beakers and early Únětice represented the first prospectors and metallurgists, travelling and sharing their skills, with Adlerberg and Straubing groups of the Southern German cultures being small local centres[Kristiansen 1987].
    https://indo-european.info/ie/Únětice_culture

    I'm (as more often) pretty associative, but I hope this all makes sense ;) The core thing is: R1b U106/ Rise 98 is not hardcore Corded Ware but can be seen in some (early) Unetice/ post Bell Beaker context. Shortly: LN/EBA. IMO this makes a connection between R1b U106 Lilla Beddinge (Scania) and R1b U106 Oostwoud (North Dutch) more probable/reasonable.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Kivutkalns153, Latvia, Bronze Age, 800–545 BC, R1a1a1b1a3-YP1370 (a subclade of R1a-Z284).

    I guess this Z284 from Bronze Age Latvia proves that some R1a came to Scandinavia from East Baltic area.

    These are the oldest R1a samples from Scandinavia:

    Sweden RISE94, Viby, Götaland, 2621-2472 BC
    Denmark RISE61, Kyndeløse, Zealand, 2650-2300 BC
    Sweden LNBA, Ölsund, Hälsingland, 2573-2140 BC
    Denmark RISE42, Marbjerg, Zealand, 2191-1972 BC

    As you can see 3 of them are from Southern Scandinavia, but one (Olsund) is from Northern Sweden.

    Olsund individual is discussed in this paper:

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...13241.full.pdfhttps://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...1/113241-1.pdf

    About the origins of Corded Ware culture:

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/1...hungarian.html

    R1a migrated to Scandinavia either from Latvia-Lithuania-Poland by boats across the Baltic Sea, or from Germany (both routes are possible). N1c migrated to Scandinavia much later and probably from Finland-Estonia (ultimately from North-Western Russia).

    Possible routes of R1a migration to Scandinavia with Corded Ware culture (red arrows):

    https://i.imgur.com/GfE3Abm.png



    This paper claims that the Olsund sample was most autosomally most similar to Baltic Bronze Age samples:

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...13241.full.pdf

    CTRL + F type Olsund and find this info.

    Also rock art of native Scandinavians (Non-R1) depicts the arrival of some R1-men by boats.

    Native, Non-IE Scandinavians used to create rock carvings already ca. 6500 years ago.

    They were documenting scenes from everyday life, such as hunting:

    http://www.rockartscandinavia.com/frontpage.phphttp://fri.info.pl/rysunki-naskalne-alta/







    At the beginning of the Metal Ages, completely new motifs appear in Scandinavian rock art. These new carvings depict the arrival - by sea - of large fleets of immigrants, who had the knowledge of metal-working, were armed in battle axes (see: Battle Axe culture) and worshipped foreign deities:

    https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rysunki_naskalne_w_Tanum

    Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ld6Dt-Lce6MVideo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDXQCUpjAyk













    This artwork most likely depicts an Indo-European high priest, an archetype of god Thor:



    ^^^ This is consistent with Oslund R1a man being possibly descended from Baltic Bronze Age immigrants.
    A nice exemplfication Tomenable!

    Besides my remark yesterday about R1b (U106) in combination with this info about R1a it's together a illustration of what David from Eurogenes has stated about the genetics of the Nordic Bronze age or LN/EBA:
    http://eurogenes.blogspot.nl/2015/06...mong-late.html
    Last edited by Northener; 15-02-18 at 11:05.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    BTW, someones said ancient Baltic languages were rather more fragmented than first Slavic ones, spite their so called archaism;

    That was the Encyclopedia Britannica that said this. Here's the quote again,



    "Proto-Slavic began to develop as a separate linguistic entity in the 2nd millennium BCand was to remain quite unified for a long time to come. Proto-Baltic, however, besides developing into an independent linguistic unit in the 2nd millennium BC, also began gradually to split."



    The fact that the Slavic remained more unified seems to indicate that it was more conservative and resistant to change. Thus, it may have preserved the old tradition better.



    What we have c. 5th century AD, when things become more clear, is that the Slavic languages are found both in North Europe (east and west) and in South Europe (east and west) – a very large area. The Baltic languages OTOH are just in a very small northern area. These are the facts. So, superficially, it looks like the Balts split off the Slavs, and not the other way around.

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    @Northerner

    your post #72 is interesting: it points to first principal diffusion center of Y-R1b-U106 being northern enough at those times and maybe a in a contacts zone between the ancient CWC, BB and Unetice areas, so not so far from East Germany?
    I had thought into Austria as second possible guess for U106 first core but it seems Austria was rather close to the Southern Tumuli zone than to the Northern one ("rich tumuli") rather close to Northwest Bohemia, Southern part of East-Germany; I abandon this Austrian bet to date; but it's uncertain to base our thoughts upon geography only because it seems more and more that males clans could infiltrate diverse regions even without mixing with other male clans (what doesn't dispense them to take foreign females on their way) we see that with GAC and CWC males lineages; so in absence of ancient DNA archeology helps but I'm a bit feeble on archeology.

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