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Thread: The Genetic Prehistory of the Baltic Sea Region

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugo-k View Post
    That was the Encyclopedia Britannica that said this. Here's the quote again,



    "Proto-Slavic began to develop as a separate linguistic entity in the 2nd millennium BCand was to remain quite unified for a long time to come. Proto-Baltic, however, besides developing into an independent linguistic unit in the 2nd millennium BC, also began gradually to split."



    The fact that the Slavic remained more unified seems to indicate that it was more conservative and resistant to change. Thus, it may have preserved the old tradition better.



    What we have c. 5th century AD, when things become more clear, is that the Slavic languages are found both in North Europe (east and west) and in South Europe (east and west) – a very large area. The Baltic languages OTOH are just in a very small northern area. These are the facts. So, superficially, it looks like the Balts split off the Slavs, and not the other way around.


    Thanks for post.
    archeolinguistic is always a tricky matter - language evolution doesn't obey to pure mathematic rules, it depends on people - but as a whole, as a pop increase in number its dialects are pushed to differentiate more and more with time - I don't know the ancient stages of baltic languages and here I only took the affirmation of an other - my today impression is that currently, spite they are spoken in a VERY smallER area, the Baltic dialects are comparatively more diverse than the Slavic ones are - and that push me to believe the Slavic ones are the result of a firstable small pop with huge baby boom short enough in time to avoid a too strong puzzling - I don't say Baltic gives Slavic, but that proto-Slavic was at first spoken by a little part of proto-Baltic speakers (it"s only a guess of mine) -
    I's true the speed of evolution of language depends also on the distance between two languages when one of them is adopted... I don't know what language spoke the pop which provided Y-N1 in Baltic regions. Uneasy to be sure of anything here.

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    Thanks for your reply, MOESAN,
    I'm more familiar with linguistics and archaeology than with genetics, but surely all these disciplines should agree sooner or later. :)

    "... the Baltic dialects are comparatively more diverse than the Slavic"

    Well, actually they are _languages_ and, true, the divergence among them is much greater than among the Slavic languages. Let's take Latvian and Lithuanian; they are far more different than the divergence of any of the Slavic languages among each other. From this it should follow that the Slavic languages are generally more conservative.

    There are lots of big debates in linguistics, and lots of unsettled matters. But I'm looking at the comparisons with Sanskrit. It's very clear that Slavic shows a lot more similarities with Sanskrit, than the Baltic. This is the primary proof that the Slavic are more conservative

    The Baltic languages are about half way between Germanic and Slavic. And the Germanic is even further removed from Sanskrit. These are purely linguistic arguments, and pretty strong ones IMHO, but they are often disregarded by mainstream linguists.

    Also, archaeology seems to show a rather late arrival of the Balts to their current home area.

    BTW, are you familiar with the linguistic evidence that the Germanic peoples were living in northern China before their arrival to Europe? I know it may sound strange, but the evidence is available.

    All the best.

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    Pontus Skoglund on the Northwest Passage to Scandinavia:
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s415...S0M2Zijg%3D%3D


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Pontus Skoglund on the Northwest Passage to Scandinavia:
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s415...S0M2Zijg%3D%3D
    these were the first people along the Norvegian coasts :
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komsa_culture
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fosna%...sbacka_culture

    12 ka, the North Sea didn't exist yet, it was Doggerland
    but the Fennoscandinavian icecap was receding and the ice on the Norvegian Trench was gone

    these fishermen and seal hunters originated from the Ahrensburg culture reindeer hunters
    the Ahrensburg reindeerhunters had bow and arrow, they were Villabrunan I2 clade
    they outcompeted the Magdalenian and Hamburg culture El Miron cluster, who were hunting reindeer with atlatl


    Recent archeological finds from Finnish Lapland were originally thought to represent an inland aspect of the Komsa culture equally old as the earliest finds from the Norwegian coast. However, this material is now considered to be affiliated with the contemporary Post-Swiderian culture of North Central Russia and the eastern Baltic and thus represents a separate early incursion into northernmost Scandinavia[3][4]

    Finnish Lapland may have been the contact zone where these WHG fishermen and seal hunters admixed with EHG from Karelia

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    these were the first people along the Norvegian coasts :
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komsa_culture
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fosna%...sbacka_culture

    12 ka, the North Sea didn't exist yet, it was Doggerland
    but the Fennoscandinavian icecap was receding and the ice on the Norvegian Trench was gone

    these fishermen and seal hunters originated from the Ahrensburg culture reindeer hunters
    the Ahrensburg reindeerhunters had bow and arrow, they were Villabrunan I2 clade
    they outcompeted the Magdalenian and Hamburg culture El Miron cluster, who were hunting reindeer with atlatl


    Recent archeological finds from Finnish Lapland were originally thought to represent an inland aspect of the Komsa culture equally old as the earliest finds from the Norwegian coast. However, this material is now considered to be affiliated with the contemporary Post-Swiderian culture of North Central Russia and the eastern Baltic and thus represents a separate early incursion into northernmost Scandinavia[3][4]

    Finnish Lapland may have been the contact zone where these WHG fishermen and seal hunters admixed with EHG from Karelia
    Yes, that all makes sense to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    I feel that those genetic datas are going too fast, than the archeological datas, between when there was a Baltic Bronze Age ? Is it culturally link with central europe Unetice, R1b people ? Or is it a local developpement from R1a corded people ? Because in my mind, bronze age is still a cultural developpement from a central european R1b tribe.
    About 1800 to 500 bc, the earliest bronze objects were imported both from Scandinavia and the Urals. Related to Nordic Bronze Age then, but also eastern influences (Seima-Turbino?)

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    depositphotos_171518570-stock-photo-old-mongolian-man-riding-a.jpg

    How about those reindeer riders and their bone arrows.

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    this is what Ted Kendall says :
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/yful...8200650209778/
    detailed SNPs show that these Tarofalt samples are not an extinct bracnh, but they are ancestral to todays subclades of E-M78
    there is this sample, probably E-L618
    Epicardial Spain Avellaner cave, Catalonia [Ave 07] M 5000 BC E1b1b1a1b1a M35.1, V13, Ei in STR table U5 Lacan 2011b
    his ancestors could have gotten from Tarofalt to Iberia and mixed with incoming Cardial Ware people
    but there are also these samples :
    Impresso pottery Croatia Zemunica Cave [I3948] M 5600-5470 BCE E1b1b1a1b1 (E-L618) N1a1 Mathieson 2017 769991
    Sopot (proto Lengyel) Hungary Bicske-Galagonyás [BICS 4] 5000-4800 BC E1b1b1a1 M78 H39 Szécsényi-Nagy 2015 thesis
    how could they have gotten there?

    sorry - wrong thread
    Last edited by bicicleur; 18-03-18 at 16:24.

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berbers#Origins
    Uniparental DNA analysis has established ties between Berbers and other Afroasiatic speakers in Africa. Most of these populations belong to the E1b1b paternal haplogroup, with Berber speakers having among the highest frequencies of this lineage.[54] Additionally, genomic analysis has found that Berber and other Maghreb communities are defined by a shared ancestral component. This Maghrebi element peaks among Tunisian Berbers.[55] It is related to the Coptic/Ethio-Somali, having diverged from these and other West Eurasian-affiliated components prior to the Holocene.[56]
    about Ethio-Somali :
    http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetic...type=printable
    Early Back-to-Africa Migration into the Horn of Africa
    Genetic studies have identified substantial non-African admixture in the Horn of Africa (HOA). In the most recent genomic
    studies, this non-African ancestry has been attributed to admixture with Middle Eastern populations during the last few
    thousand years. However, mitochondrial and Y chromosome data are suggestive of earlier episodes of admixture. To
    investigate this further, we generated new genome-wide SNP data for a Yemeni population sample and merged these new
    data with published genome-wide genetic data from the HOA and a broad selection of surrounding populations. We used
    multidimensional scaling and ADMIXTURE methods in an exploratory data analysis to develop hypotheses on admixture
    and population structure in HOA populations. These analyses suggested that there might be distinct, differentiated African
    and non-African ancestries in the HOA. After partitioning the SNP data into African and non-African origin chromosome
    segments, we found support for a distinct African (Ethiopic) ancestry and a distinct non-African (Ethio-Somali) ancestry in
    HOA populations. The African Ethiopic ancestry is tightly restricted to HOA populations and likely represents an
    autochthonous HOA population. The non-African ancestry in the HOA, which is primarily attributed to a novel Ethio-Somali
    inferred ancestry component, is significantly differentiated from all neighboring non-African ancestries in North Africa, the
    Levant, and Arabia. The Ethio-Somali ancestry is found in all admixed HOA ethnic groups, shows little inter-individual
    variance within these ethnic groups, is estimated to have diverged from all other non-African ancestries by at least 23 ka,
    and does not carry the unique Arabian lactase persistence allele that arose about 4 ka. Taking into account published
    mitochondrial, Y chromosome, paleoclimate, and archaeological data, we find that the time of the Ethio-Somali back-toAfrica
    migration is most likely pre-agricultural.
    so there would have been a large late paleolithical dispersal of Natufian-like E1b1b1 all over North Africa of which Berber is a remnant

    sorry - wrong thread
    Last edited by bicicleur; 18-03-18 at 16:25.

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