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Thread: The Genetic Prehistory of the Baltic Sea Region

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.

    The Genetic Prehistory of the Baltic Sea Region

    While the series of events that shaped the transition between foraging societies and food producers are well described for Central and Southern Europe, genetic evidence from Northern Europe surrounding the Baltic Sea is still sparse. Here, we report genome-wide DNA data from 38 ancient North Europeans ranging from ~9500 to 2200 years before present. Our analysis provides genetic evidence that hunter-gatherers settled Scandinavia via two routes. We reveal that the first Scandinavian farmers derive their ancestry from Anatolia 1000 years earlier than previously demonstrated. The range of Mesolithic Western hunter-gatherers extended to the east of the Baltic Sea, where these populations persisted without gene-flow from Central European farmers during the Early and Middle Neolithic. The arrival of steppe pastoralists in the Late Neolithic introduced a major shift in economy and mediated the spread of a new ancestry associated with the Corded Ware Complex in Northern Europe.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-02825-9

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    But we steel dont know haplogroup I1 ethnogenesis, so looking at auDNA of Scandinavian farmers can we hypothetized if I1 came with some HG or with some Farmers ? Are the Scandinavians Farmers in ancient admixture a mix between SHG and EEF with little EHG or is their a change in the HG admixture between Mesolithic and Neolithic times ? ( Like for exemple SHG decrease and WHG-EHG increase ? ).

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    Incredible. It took a year and a half for the full paper to be published. Anyway, we discussed the abstract here. I'm interested to see the full paper and see how it compares to our musings.

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...hlight=Mittnik


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    Modern Eastern Baltic populations cluster with Baltic BA on the PCA plot and exhibit among all modern populations the highest shared genetic drift with ancient Baltic populations (Supplementary Fig. 2), but show substantial differences to samples from the Bronze Age. The statistic D(Lithuanian, Baltic BA; X, Mbuti) reveals significantly positive results for many modern Near Eastern and Southern European populations (Supplementary Fig. 6a). Limited gene-flow from more south-western neighbouring regions after the Bronze Age is sufficient to explain this pattern, as nearly all modern populations besides Estonians, especially for Central and Western Europe, have a higher amount of farmer ancestry than Lithuanians.
    I thought this part from the results section was particularly interesting. Goes to show that the PCA as a tool alone, does not tell the whole story.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The problem is as always they compare ancient dna with modern, so we dont know if this is the result of farmers linking middle-east and baltic, or prehistoric links with baltic like scythians or iranians that give genetic input to middle-east. I know why they doing that, but i dont understand why they try to interprete the results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I thought this part from the results section was particularly interesting. Goes to show that the PCA as a tool alone, does not tell the whole story.
    there is something else
    haplogroup N
    they arrrived after Baltic BA
    the authors don't say how this affected the autosomal of the Baltic people
    I guess they (N) didn't come from the neighbouring southwest

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    In autosomals Baltic_MN CCC display a EHG-like colours and it was truly a hunther-gatherer culture; thereafter Baltic_LN displays a segmentation similar to other CWC regions (European hunther, EEF, Caucasus), but the supposed source of Yamnaya displays half European hunther, half Caucasian, so where it's supposed that Baltic CWC got such EEF? from Yamnaya no, so the steppe source is not the (unique) source of genes, and so maybe IE languages. Steppe LMBA also displays the EEF component, but coming from...? and such culture was by sure IE. Armenia ChL + Yamnaya could fit quite well as source, but we lack Russian samples yet.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    In autosomals Baltic_MN CCC display a EHG-like colours and it was truly a hunther-gatherer culture; thereafter Baltic_LN displays a segmentation similar to other CWC regions (European hunther, EEF, Caucasus), but the supposed source of Yamnaya displays half European hunther, half Caucasian, so where it's supposed that Baltic CWC got such EEF? from Yamnaya no, so the steppe source is not the (unique) source of genes, and so maybe IE languages. Steppe LMBA also displays the EEF component, but coming from...? and such culture was by sure IE. Armenia ChL + Yamnaya could fit quite well as source, but we lack Russian samples yet.
    the oldest CWC saples had Yamna but no EEF, the later samples have EEF besides Yamna
    CWC is not PIE any more, it is probably proto Iranic-Indic, Celtic probably has nothing to do with CWC

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    CWC develops German and Balto-Slav, Sintashta Greek and Indo-Iranian... but the source of all it (proto-IE) might have EFF which lacks Yamnaya. Two migrations (with and without EEF are not the best explanation)

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    CWC develops German and Balto-Slav, Sintashta Greek and Indo-Iranian... but the source of all it (proto-IE) might have EFF which lacks Yamnaya. Two migrations (with and without EEF are not the best explanation)
    it says could
    The presence of direct contacts to the steppe could lend support to a linguistic model that sees an early branching of Balto-Slavic from a Proto-Indo-European language
    there is no evidence of slav at that time in CWC........it could also be just germanic and baltic
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    CWC develops German and Balto-Slav, Sintashta Greek and Indo-Iranian... but the source of all it (proto-IE) might have EFF which lacks Yamnaya. Two migrations (with and without EEF are not the best explanation)
    Do you assume German origin in CWC because of the geographic expansion of CWC ? It's pretty sur that the R1b from Scandinavia that develop the centum part of german languages is coming from a central european, unetice related people, i'm thinking more about the Battle of Tollense kind of people coming from Bohemia.

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    there should be more subclades in the Y-DNA
    we know from Mathieson that CCC were a specific subclade, R1a1-YP1272
    this paper learns nothing about Y-DNA
    I hope Genetiker will come in

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    CWC develops German and Balto-Slav, Sintashta Greek and Indo-Iranian... but the source of all it (proto-IE) might have EFF which lacks Yamnaya. Two migrations (with and without EEF are not the best explanation)
    EEF is a very long shot and to old
    the same way you could almost argue for WHG

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    I'm posting Y-SNP calls here:

    Y-SNP calls from ancient Northern Europe

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    @halfalp, I simply follow certain IE branching, with my limited knowledge of Englush, German and Russian is which makes more sense to me, adding to it the archaeological and R1a combo.

    @bicicleur, the EEF share is there and clear, some explanation must have.

    finding "Caucasian" J1 in mesolithic Russia it's possible that there were migrations from the Caucasian refugium, so that the EHG + CHG combo requested for IE could have popped up in Russia also...

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    Baltic Bronze Age genomes are out

    Still not on GEDmatch, but are already available to download, it seems:

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-02825-9

    Davidski's comments:

    http://polishgenes.blogspot.co.uk/20...e-peoples.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Still not on GEDmatch, but are already available to download, it seems:

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-02825-9

    Davidski's comments:

    http://polishgenes.blogspot.co.uk/20...e-peoples.html
    the big elephant in the room is haplgroup N

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    None of our male Bronze Age individuals carry Y-haplogroup N, which is found in modern Europeans in highest frequencies in Finland and the Baltic states34. Instead, we observe a high frequency of R1a Y-haplogroups.

    We suggest that the Siberian and East Asian related ancestry in Estonia, and Y-haplogroup N in north-eastern Europe, where it is widespread today, arrived there after the Bronze Age, ca. 500 calBCE, as we detect neither in our Bronze Age samples from Lithuania and Latvia. As Uralic speaking populations of the Volga-Ural region34 show high frequencies of haplogroup N34, a connection was proposed with the spread of Uralic language speakers from the east that contributed to the male gene pool of Eastern Baltic populations and left linguistic descendants in the Finno-Ugric languages Finnish and Estonian44, 45. A potential future direction of research is the identification of the proximate population that contributed to the arrival of this eastern ancestry into Northern Europe.
    None of male Bronze Age individuals from this study carry haplogroup N and the authors concluded that haplogroup N in north-eastern Europe arrived there after 500 calBCE. It's interesting to observe that Uralic-speaking populations with haplogroup N arrived from Siberia later than the hunter-gatherer population with R1a and they were non-existent during the Bronze Age in Northern Europe.
    Давайте вместе снова сделаем мир великий!

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    It seems so, it could be that Uralic N were reindeer herders which occupied areas unsuitable for agriculture and other herding animals in a more cold period? the native population in such areas would be reduced and language replacement would be more easy.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    I've always taught haplo N arrived in Finland around 600 BC.
    It was a climate shift which marks the end of the Nordic BA abd the end of agriculture that far north.
    The Nordic BA people left their farms and moved south, eventualy becoming the Germanic tribes.
    Haplo N HG and reindeer herders filled the void.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Bronze_Age#Climate


    The Nordic Bronze Age was initially characterized by a warm climate that began with a climate change around 2700 BC. The climate was comparable to that of present-day central Germany and northern France and permitted a relatively dense population and good opportunities for farming; for example, grapes were grown in Scandinavia at this time. A minor change in climate occurred between 850 BC and 760 BC, introducing a wetter, colder climate and a more radical climate change began around 650 BC.[3]

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    Another point of view, from Razib Khan:
    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2018/...medium=twitter

    Of course, sampling is imperfect, and perhaps they’ve missed pockets of ancient Finnic peoples. But the most thorough analysis of Mesolithic hunter-gatherers in Scandinavian does not pick them up either, Population genomics of Mesolithic Scandinavia: Investigating early postglacial migration routes and high-latitude adaptation. Populations, such as the Comb Ceramic Culture, which have been identified as possible ancestors of the modern Finnic culture and ethnicity, lack the distinctive Siberian-like component.

    At the SMBE 2017, I saw a poster which had results that were sampled from Finland proper, and distinctive ancestry of Siberian-like peoples was present in an individual who lived after 500 AD. This means that in all likelihood the circumpolar Siberian population which introduced this new element into the East Baltic arrived in the period between 500 BC and 500 AD."

    "I will add when I run Treemix Finns get the Siberian gene flow you’d expect. But the Lithuanians get something from the Finns. Since the Lithuanians have appreciable levels of N1c, that is not entirely surprising to me (the basal flow from the Yakut/European region to Belorussians may be more CHG/ANE).

    Additionally, I will note that on a f-3 test Lithuanians have nearly as high a z-score (absolute) as Swedes (i.e., Finn; Swede/Lithuanian, Yakut), indicating that the predominant Northern European ancestry isn’t necessarily Scandinavian, as much as something between Lithuanian-like and Swedish-like (on Admixture tests the Finns do seem to have less EEF than Swedes, and Lithuanians probably the least of all among non-Finn peoples)."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Another point of view, from Razib Khan:
    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2018/...medium=twitter

    Of course, sampling is imperfect, and perhaps they’ve missed pockets of ancient Finnic peoples. But the most thorough analysis of Mesolithic hunter-gatherers in Scandinavian does not pick them up either, Population genomics of Mesolithic Scandinavia: Investigating early postglacial migration routes and high-latitude adaptation. Populations, such as the Comb Ceramic Culture, which have been identified as possible ancestors of the modern Finnic culture and ethnicity, lack the distinctive Siberian-like component.

    At the SMBE 2017, I saw a poster which had results that were sampled from Finland proper, and distinctive ancestry of Siberian-like peoples was present in an individual who lived after 500 AD. This means that in all likelihood the circumpolar Siberian population which introduced this new element into the East Baltic arrived in the period between 500 BC and 500 AD."

    "I will add when I run Treemix Finns get the Siberian gene flow you’d expect. But the Lithuanians get something from the Finns. Since the Lithuanians have appreciable levels of N1c, that is not entirely surprising to me (the basal flow from the Yakut/European region to Belorussians may be more CHG/ANE).

    Additionally, I will note that on a f-3 test Lithuanians have nearly as high a z-score (absolute) as Swedes (i.e., Finn; Swede/Lithuanian, Yakut), indicating that the predominant Northern European ancestry isn’t necessarily Scandinavian, as much as something between Lithuanian-like and Swedish-like (on Admixture tests the Finns do seem to have less EEF than Swedes, and Lithuanians probably the least of all among non-Finn peoples)."
    If I recall well, Roman writers reported about Finnic HG, who didn't practice farming and had no cattle.
    They must have been the Uralic N1c.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThirdTerm View Post
    None of male Bronze Age individuals from this study carry haplogroup N and the authors concluded that haplogroup N in north-eastern Europe arrived there after 500 calBCE. It's interesting to observe that Uralic-speaking populations with haplogroup N arrived from Siberia later than the hunter-gatherer population with R1a and they were non-existent during the Bronze Age in Northern Europe.
    What's the prove that populations with haplogroup N were Uralic-speaking?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    If I recall well, Roman writers reported about Finnic HG, who didn't practice farming and had no cattle.
    They must have been the Uralic N1c.
    "Perhaps the Siberian-like people did not introduce Finnic languages into the Baltic."
    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2018/...medium=twitter

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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    "Perhaps the Siberian-like people did not introduce Finnic languages into the Baltic."
    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2018/...medium=twitter

    I think you missed the following sentence:

    "Addendum: I should note here that the genetics is getting clearer, but I have no great insight into the ethno-linguistic aspect. Perhaps the Siberian-like people did not introduce Finnic languages into the Baltic. Perhaps that was someone else. But I doubt it."

    I don't mean to imply that he's an expert in that particular aspect of the question, of course.

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