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Thread: More Y Dna results from Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    Because of small number of samples. In Heraklides et al. there were 765 samples from Sicily and E-M81 was only 1.6%.

    Interesting.
    Do you have a link to the Heraklides study?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Interesting.
    Do you have a link to the Heraklides study?
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0179474
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    All you have to do is google Heraklides et al:
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0179474

    All of the tables are in the Supplement. That particular one is Table 7. All of them are pretty interesting.
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...0179474#sec018


    It really should be more well known. They've collected a lot of data in one place. Should I add it to the list of papers for newbies? I think I thought it was too specific.

    Anyway, I think what perhaps isn't sufficiently appreciated is that in a country like Italy, which is so mountainous, and where so many communities were isolated and were endogamous for so many years, certain y lines can drift to prominence in a small community. If that community happens to be one that is sampled for yDna, there's the danger that the results can be extrapolated to apply to a wider region than is justified.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Interesting.
    Do you have a link to the Heraklides study?
    thanks for this table that 13% e-m123 in greek cypriotes
    more common than in the levnat 5% in modern times ... :)
    i think maybe e-m123 was more common in ancient time :)
    i still would like to know from where in sicily the samples were taken in this study .....
    maybe from place there was more carthegenian influence in sicly ?
    or more moors print ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    thanks for this table that 13% e-m123 in greek cypriotes
    more common than in the levnat 5% in modern times ... :)
    i think maybe e-m123 was more common in ancient time :)
    i still would like to know from where in sicily the samples were taken in this study .....
    maybe from place there was more carthegenian influence in sicly ?
    or more moors print ?
    I believe this is from Ahmed Reguig et al 2014



    However, some of the data comes from DiGaetano et al
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/

    It would seem to be Caccamo and Piazza Amerina, but you're talking about sample sizes of 16 and 28. This is actually a perfect example of what I was pointing out above.

    Caccamo is now part of the metropolitan area of Palermo. So far as I know Caccamo's recorded history starts with the Normans. However, this was the area of the Carthaginian settlement.

    On the other hand, other areas in the northwest have almost none of it. It looks to me as if somebody in Caccamo carrying E-M81 got lucky in terms of sons.

    You can see what I mean in this chart from DiGaetano:
    [IMG][/IMG]




    Piazza Armerina is actually one of the Lombard communes of Sicily, so called because northern Italians were brought in to colonize the area. Of course, there were probably people in the vicinity before that time, but I'm not aware of any particular tie to Carthaginians or the Moors.

    I think I vaguely remember it has a lot of "I" or U-152 as well. Does anyone have a better recall of that?

    Maciamo's map, because he uses so many sources, also shows very low levels of E-M81 in Sicily.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    i still would like to know from where in sicily the samples were taken in this study .....
    maybe from place there was more carthegenian influence in sicly ?
    or more moors print ?
    Not clear the exact location of the Sicilian sample from this study. Of course the results from Heraclides et al. 2017 are closer to a more accurate Sicilian average.



    From Grugni et al 2017




    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Piazza Armerina is actually one of the Lombard communes of Sicily, so called because northern Italians were brought in to colonize the area. Of course, there were probably people in the vicinity before that time, but I'm not aware of any particular tie to Carthaginians or the Moors.
    Yes, but I don't think that all the people from Piazza Armerina descend from these northern Italian settlers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    agree
    on Volterra it says
    VOLTERRA
    Geography
    Volterra is a town of Tuscany - Central Italy - in the province of Pisa. It is located on a rocky hill, between the Bra and Cecina rivers. Along with the districts of Castelnuovo Val di Cecina, Montecatini Val di Cecina and Pomarance, it is part of the Upper Cecina Valley. This region is surrounded by other neighbouring valleys: on the West there are the Lower Cecina and the Cornia Valleys; on the North the Era Valley, and on the East the Upper Elsa Valley. On the South it confines with the Colline Metallifere, a mountain-hill group in the Tuscan Anti-Apennine.
    In the surroundings of Volterra, the forests of Berignone-Tatti and Monterufoli are some of the wooded areas that form the landscape, often characterized by the Mediterranean shrub land, the dramatic landslides of the Balze area and rolling hills.
    Historical background
    The hill on which Volterra is located was already settled from the Iron Age onwards, as the Villanovan necropolis shows. During the Neolithic, Volterra was an important settlement of the Etruscans; part of the principal twelve cities of the Etruscans confederation. Volterra was more isolated than the other Etruscan cities, due to its geographical position, and it was one of the last cities to join the Roman Republic, in the III century B.C..
    The origin of Etruscans is still controversial and different hypotheses have been made: one sustains they came from Anatolia, another claims an autochthonous process of formation from the preceding Villanovan society. Lastly, influence from Northern Europe has also been hypothesized.

    I was interested in Vicenza with its 5% of T .............only because of a paternal line of mine, Matteo married Teresa Greslin in Schio ~1670 ..............Vicenza had a mix of trevisani and trentini merging there

    Only the T-M70 from this paper
    Picene , if ancient are Histri/Liburnian Illyrians
    L`Aquila with its 20% ( some found to be haplogroup LT ) would mostly likey be Samnites , speaking Sabellic , if so, can be also some South-Picene language which is also Sabellic
    .
    La Spezia to Massa in just north of ancient Volterra
    l`Aquila
    This was the land of Samnium inhabited by the Caraceni
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caraceni_(tribe)
    .
    Their northern neighbours
    The Frentani[1] were an Italic tribe occupying the tract on the east coast of the peninsula from the Apennines to the Adriatic, and from the frontiers of Apulia to those of the Marrucini. They were bounded on the west by the Samnites, with whom they were closely connected, and from whom they were originally descended. Hence Scylax assigns the whole of this line of coast, from the frontiers of Apulia to those of Picenum, to the Samnites.[2] Their exact limits are less clearly defined, and there is considerable discrepancy in the statements of ancient geographers: Larinum, with its territory (extending from the Tifernus (modern Biferno) to the Frento), being by some writers termed a city of the Frentani,[3] while the more general opinion included it in Apulia, and thus made the river Tifernus (Biferno) the limit of the two countries.[4] The northern boundary of the Frentani is equally uncertain; both Strabo[5] and Ptolemy[6] concur in fixing it at the river Sagrus (modern Sangro), while Pliny extends their limits as far as the Aternus,
    .
    both spoke a Sabellic language
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Not clear the exact location of the Sicilian sample from this study. Of course the results from Heraclides et al. 2017 are closer to a more accurate Sicilian average.



    From Grugni et al 2017






    Yes, but I don't think that all the people from Piazza Armerina descend from these northern Italian settlers.
    Clearly not. They didn't settle in empty territory.

    In table S3 in the Supplement to this Grugni et al 2018 paper, it says their Sicily samples come from Boattini et al, 2013, which were taken from Agrigento, Catania, and Ragusa/Siracusa.

    See: Boattini et al 2013
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0065441

    I think that was wise sampling: they hit the major areas of Sicily, and particularly the areas in the south where the Berbers mostly settled, and the total for E-M81 was 2.8%.



    The more samples the better, so the best estimate is probably the one from Heraklides et al, because they compiled lots of studies. Maciamo, who does the same thing also came up with something similar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    That's what I was wondering too about all of those haplogroups up in the area of the Piemonte, Liguria, Lombardia, Emilia border, the "Quattro Province" area.

    The authors of the paper mention the Langobards up there in the Val Borbera, but their castles are in the whole area, and also all over the Lunigiana and down into Toscana too. Some of the old calculators consistently give Tuscans about a third "Germanic" type ancestry. These "Germanic" y lines, which would have been minority lines, just might not have totally drifted out of the pool of y haplogroups in these more remote areas.

    Did you see where the area of greatest variation is for G2a-L497? It's not in the Alps, it's just below Denmark. Although originally a Neolithic line, it might have gotten picked up by Indo-European groups and then spread into both Celtic speaking and Germanic speaking peoples.
    You're right, I also didn't notice that the G2a in Volterra was mostly L497. Also Grugni in her paper concludes that G2a-L497 is a Central European lineage.

    A couple of PCAs based on Y-DNA frequencies. The first scatterplot includes, beyond the samples from this study, also the ones from Capelli 2007, Ferri 2008, Di Gaetano 2009, Boattini 2013...




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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Clearly not. They didn't settle in empty territory.

    In table S3 in the Supplement to this Grugni et al 2018 paper, it says their Sicily samples come from Boattini et al, 2013, which were taken from Agrigento, Catania, and Ragusa/Siracusa.

    See: Boattini et al 2013
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0065441

    I think that was wise sampling: they hit the major areas of Sicily, and particularly the areas in the south where the Berbers mostly settled, and the total for E-M81 was 2.8%.



    The more samples the better, so the best estimate is probably the one from Heraklides et al, because they compiled lots of studies. Maciamo, who does the same thing also came up with something similar.
    Sorry, I need to correct that. The Sicilian samples used by this Grugni et al 2018 paper come not only from Boattini et al 2013, but also from Di Gaetano et al 2009. Grugni says they also used Capelli et al 2007, but I don't see any Sicilian samples listed there. The DiGaetano et al numbers are upthread.

    The two outliers are Caccamo and Piazza Armerina, which bring up the average. Caccamo was the site of a Carthaginian emporia, but as I said upthread, other similar areas near by have zero or very low levels, so it may be a bit of an anomaly, founder effect of some sort. Piazza Armerina may have been a refuge area for the Saracens, which may explain the numbers there. Lombards were deliberately settled in areas which had had a Saracen presence.

    You can see what Boattini et al 2013 showed for Sicily: Roman Numeral 7 is Sicily.




    It didn't make sense to me that using only Boattini and DiGaetano data the number in Grugni was 6.3, while Boattini was 2.8, so I re-ran the numbers myself for Boattini. I think there's a typo in Boattini. I think the average for Sicily in Boattini is 3.8%, not 2.8%. That comes from Ragusa/Siracusa, which had 3 E-M81 compared to 1 each for Catania and Agrigento. Still a stretch to get to 6.3% using just DiGaetano numbers in addition to Boattini. Does anyone know if maybe there is another paper they might have used in place of Capelli et al or if they added samples of their own, perhaps from central Sicily?

    This is Capelli et al 2007: I don't see Sicily in the chart.
    https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.ed..._in_the_It.pdf


    Feel free to check all of the above. It was a quick and dirty overview, and I want it to be correct.

    Now, as to Heraklides et al, they used Brisighelli, but also studies I've never looked at, and some medical papers. I didn't check the number of samples for each paper or where they came from, but 767 samples seems like a really big number. Maybe someone who has the time can see if they're all brand new samples or some are duplicates or what.

    Tofanelli S, Brisighelli F, Anagnostou P, Busby GB, Ferri G, Thomas MG, et al. (2016) The Greeks in the West: genetic signatures of the Hellenic colonisation in southern Italy and Sicily. Eur J Hm Genet 24: 429–436. pmid:26173964

    Herrera KJ, Lowery RK, Hadden L, Calderon S, Chiou C, Yepiskoposyan L, et al. (2012) Neolithic patrilineal signals indicate that the Armenian plateau was repopulated by agriculturalists. Eur J Hum Genet 20: 313–320. pmid:2208590

    Bekada A, Fregel R, Cabrera VM, Larruga JM, Pestano J, Benhamamouch S, et al. (2013) Introducing the Algerian mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosome profiles into the North African landscape. PLoS One 8: e56775. pmid:23431392

    Brisighelli F, Alvarez-Iglesias V, Fondevila M, Blanco-Verea A, Carracedo A, Pascali VL, et al. (2012) Uniparental markers of contemporary Italian population reveals details on its pre-Roman heritage. PLoS One 7: e50794. pmid:23251386

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    honestly i think the e-m81 in sicily here
    are new samples it is written inthe right this study
    if it was based on older refernces it would have been written on the right the name of the refernces
    you can see in sile post above of the table S.4 what i mean ..... :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    honestly i think the e-m81 in sicily here
    are new samples it is written inthe right this study
    if it was based on older refernces it would have been written on the right the name of the refernces
    you can see in sile post above of the table S.4 what i mean ..... :)
    Yes, you're right, King John, that's the 64 on the map which Pax provided. From the placement, which looks accurate for the others, it looks like it's perhaps Caltanissetta. Given its history it makes sense there would be higher levels there, as there are in Piazza Armerina.

    That's in addition to the ones from Boattini, which were from Agrigento, Catania, and Ragusa/Siracusa, and the ones from Di Gaetano listed above. As I said, I couldn't find any Sicilian samples in Capelli et al, so maybe it's another paper.

    So, we're looking at over 400 samples, compared to the 767 from Heraklides. Perhaps Heraklides used all of these plus others in the additional papers I saw?

    Grugni may have deliberately picked the refuge area in Central Italy (Caltanissetta) to see if there are remaining traces, as Boattini deliberately picked areas in the south where there is more evidence of Berber settlement. DiGaetano just did broad sampling across Sicily.

    Bottom line, it seems that 6.3% figure is not for Sicily as a whole. It is for that central area which is perhaps Caltanissetta. That correlates with the figure for Piazza Armerina. Looking at all the Sicily samples from Table 4, E-M81 ranges from 1.6% in western Sicily to that high of 6.3%. It's higher in the areas that you would expect, perhaps close to 4% in some southern areas, and around 6% in that refuge area in central Sicily.
    Last edited by Angela; 05-02-18 at 17:18.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yes, you're right, King John, that's the 64 on the map which Pax provided. From the placement, which looks accurate for the others, it looks like it's perhaps Caltanissetta. Given its history it makes sense there would be higher levels there, as there are in Piazza Armerina.

    That's in addition to the ones from Boattini, which were from Agrigento, Catania, and Ragusa/Siracusa, and the ones from Di Gaetano listed above. As I said, I couldn't find any Sicilian samples in Capelli et al, so maybe it's another paper.

    So, we're looking at over 400 samples, compared to the 767 from Heraklides. Perhaps Heraklides used all of these plus others in the additional papers I saw?

    Grugni may have deliberately picked the refuge area of Central Italy (Caltanissetta) to see if there are remaining traces, as Boattini deliberately picked areas in the south where there is more evidence of Berber settlement. DiGaetano just did broad sampling across Sicily.


    if thats the case than the real picture of e-m81 in sicily is probably from
    his data :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    [/B]if thats the case than the real picture of e-m81 in sicily is probably from
    his data :)
    That's exactly what I was thinking: in fact I was going to post that. :) However, there's Heraklides to consider. With more samples from more widely diffused areas, it seems to go way down in terms of an island wide average.

    I think Italian researchers, knowing the history of their country pretty well, have a tendency to sample in areas where they know there might be traces of certain migrations. (That's with the exception of DiGaetano.) That's great for historical or pre-historical purposes, but it might give a false impression of average distributions in an area.

    It's even worse, I think, when they pick areas that are so isolated and inbred that they do disease studies there, because you have so much founder effect and drift.

    Her data, btw: Cornelia Di Gaetano. Lots of Italian pop gen researchers are women.

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    There is an interesting peak of J2b-M241 (L283) in NW Italy and Apulia. This is the second study I have seen to have J2b-L283 in Apulia at 5-6% range. I wonder if this could be tied to the ancient Illyrian migrations. It would be interesting to have these samples NGS tested, but I have a hunch (as suggested by an STR study) some might be under Z1296>Y20899, Z1296>>Y23094, etc, which are pretty commonly found on the other side of the Adriatic. E-V13 is pretty common in Apulia as well...

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    More Y Dna results from Italy

    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    There is an interesting peak of J2b-M241 (L283) in NW Italy and Apulia. This is the second study I have seen to have J2b-L283 in Apulia at 5-6% range. I wonder if this could be tied to the ancient Illyrian migrations. It would be interesting to have these samples NGS tested, but I have a hunch (as suggested by an STR study) some might be under Z1296>Y20899, Z1296>>Y23094, etc, which are pretty commonly found on the other side of the Adriatic. E-V13 is pretty common in Apulia as well...
    This might explain some hypothesis about Illyrian migrations: The Iapygians
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapygians

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    There is an interesting peak of J2b-M241 (L283) in NW Italy and Apulia. This is the second study I have seen to have J2b-L283 in Apulia at 5-6% range. I wonder if this could be tied to the ancient Illyrian migrations. It would be interesting to have these samples NGS tested, but I have a hunch (as suggested by an STR study) some might be under Z1296>Y20899, Z1296>>Y23094, etc, which are pretty commonly found on the other side of the Adriatic. E-V13 is pretty common in Apulia as well...
    maybe or only half via across the adriatic sea and the other half down from the alps ...............8.8% R1b-U152 and also otzi` G2a-L91 is found in apulia

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Excellent points from both Trojet and Salento, to add more to the Illyrian-Iapygian connection, in ftdna datbases we see results of E-V13>S2972 and R1b-PF7563 in Puglia which can be further evidence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    Excellent points from both Trojet and Salento, to add more to the Illyrian-Iapygian connection, in ftdna datbases we see results of E-V13>S2972 and R1b-PF7563 in Puglia which can be further evidence.
    confusing part is the AP and GS ( lecce ) both known as messapic and both with a high R1a-M17 ............clearly GS is greek or maybe they might mean epirote.
    and both similar in E-V13
    .
    plus I have doubts like this article that I read
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._centuries_BCE
    that messapic is Illyrian.
    .
    If it is Illyrian I think it might be to do with the
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapydes
    who either sailed from the north Adriatic sea near istria or where brought to Apulia by the seafaring Liburnians who at that stage should have still owned corfu

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    confusing part is the AP and GS ( lecce ) both known as messapic and both with a high R1a-M17 ............clearly GS is greek or maybe they might mean epirote.
    and both similar in E-V13
    .
    plus I have doubts like this article that I read
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._centuries_BCE
    that messapic is Illyrian.
    .
    If it is Illyrian I think it might be to do with the
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapydes
    who either sailed from the north Adriatic sea near istria or where brought to Apulia by the seafaring Liburnians who at that stage should have still owned corfu
    It’s probably a bit of Everything:

    Roca (also known as Rocavecchia or Roca Vecchia) is an archaeological site located on the Adriatic coast of Apulia in Southern Italy, ......
    The site, which has been explored since the end of the 1980s by a team of the University of Salento, has produced some of the best-preserved monumental architecture of the Bronze Age (2nd millennium BC) in Southern Italy, along with the largest set of Mycenaean pottery ever recovered west of mainland Greece.
    ....... writing of thousands of dedications to a local deity in three languages: Greek, Messapic and Latin.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roca...ological_site)

    Messapian language
    ..... is an extinct Indo-European language of southeastern Italy, once spoken in the region of Apulia. It was spoken by the three Iapygian tribes of the region: the Messapians, the Peucetians and the Daunians. The language has been preserved in about 300 inscriptions dating from the 6th to the 1st century BC.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapian_language

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    confusing part is the AP and GS ( lecce ) both known as messapic and both with a high R1a-M17 ............clearly GS is greek or maybe they might mean epirote.
    and both similar in E-V13
    .
    plus I have doubts like this article that I read
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._centuries_BCE
    that messapic is Illyrian.
    .
    If it is Illyrian I think it might be to do with the
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapydes
    who either sailed from the north Adriatic sea near istria or where brought to Apulia by the seafaring Liburnians who at that stage should have still owned corfu
    In that article it never says that Messapic isn’t Illyrian? R1a in Puglia could be Slavic in origin and probably has nothing to do with Illyrians and Greeks.

    This paragraph from the Molise Croats page on wikipedia talks about the history of Slavs in Italy which isn’t limited to Molise Croats.

    The Adriatic Sea since the Early Middle Agesconnected the Croatian and Italian coast.[11]The historical sources from 10-11th centuries mention Slavic incursions in Calabria, and Gargano peninsula.[11]Gerhard Rohlfs in dialects from Gargano found many old Croatian lexical remains, and two toponyms Peschici(*pěskъ-) and Lesina (*lěsь, forest), which indicate Chakavian dialect.[12] In 12th century are confirmed toponyms Castelluccio degli Schiavoni and San Vito degli Schiavoni.[11] In 13th and until 15th century toponyms Slavi cum casalibus (Otranto, 1290), Castellucium de Slavis (Capitanata, 1305), casale Sclavorum(Lavorno, 1306), clerici de Schalvis (Trivento, 1328), S. Martini in Sclavis (Marsia, 13th century), S. Nikolò degli Schiavoni (Vasto, 1362).[13] In 1487 the residents of Anconadiffered the Slavi, previously settled, and the newcomers Morlacchi.[10] In 16th century, Abraham Ortelius in his Theatrum Orbis Terrarum (1570), West of Gargano in today's province of Molise mentioned Dalmatia,[14] and on Gargano also exist cape Porto Croatico and cove Valle Croatica.[15]

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molise_Croats

    This probably explains the R1a.

    As for Iagypians and the Illyrian link, these 3 haplogroups shared between Albanians and Pugliese give a nice support, keep in mind that Puglia also has very little Arbereshe settlements (3 in total, 2 in Foggia and 1 in Taranto), so this would mean the connection is quite old.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    ^^From the Grugni et al 2018 paper which is the subject of this thread:

    T and U are Apulia, and V and W are Grecia Salentina. These necessarily look like Slavic y lines to you? Do the STRS say all that M17* is "Slavic"? If not, then they're apparently not.

    [IMG][/IMG]

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ^^From the Grugni et al 2018 paper which is the subject of this thread:

    T and U are Apulia, and V and W are Grecia Salentina. These necessarily look like Slavic y lines to you? Do the STRS say all that M17* is "Slavic"? If not, then they're apparently not.

    [IMG][/IMG]
    Plus, a lot of the attributed "Slavic" in places like Croatia and the parts of the Balkans facing Apulia and Grecia Salentina is by way of "I2" lines, yes? If you look at the chart, not much of that in Apulia and Grecia Salentina either, unless I'm missing something.

    That would seem to point rather to older migrations it seems to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    R1a in Puglia could be Slavic in origin and probably has nothing to do with Illyrians and Greeks.
    This is an unwarranted assumption considering the long ancient history of Greek and Illyrian settlement in Puglia.
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    There is an interesting peak of J2b-M241 (L283) in NW Italy and Apulia. This is the second study I have seen to have J2b-L283 in Apulia at 5-6% range. I wonder if this could be tied to the ancient Illyrian migrations. It would be interesting to have these samples NGS tested, but I have a hunch (as suggested by an STR study) some might be under Z1296>Y20899, Z1296>>Y23094, etc, which are pretty commonly found on the other side of the Adriatic. E-V13 is pretty common in Apulia as well...
    What about the 11,4% EV13 from Bergamo?
    The city was of big military importance in Roman period, destroyed by Attila,which,despite the reputation ,has become very selective ,it automatically leads us to Bird's study

    http://www.jogg.info/pages/32/bird.htm

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergamo

    EDIT
    Bergomum was connected with the Friuli region through a military road,from where you could have reached the Lower Danube,via the Sava and Drava valleys.
    EDIT
    Bergamo is also an isolated,mountainous, province,that would explain the preservation of a higher percentage of V-13,I mean,they were lucky this time.
    Same thing for the Romano-Britons ,with the Saxon invasion that spreads them into the higher locations,like Wales,Western England,thus,keeping their genes.
    Last edited by Litovoi; 07-02-18 at 22:09.

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