More Y Dna results from Italy

[Salento]

There is one Brindisi, yes, although not the Salento?
R-Z283

Some don't have a location listed. Have they been contacted or did you check surnames? These are the ones I quickly noticed that are Southern Italian generally but might perhaps be from Puglia. Can't tell, though: nothing definite.

Raffa and Filardo-(R-YP3994, and R-M198)


Gasbarro-R-M173

So, I definitely don't see Slavic R1a here.

Actually, given the history of Puglia, with all the contacts with the Northmen, I would think Scandinavian R1a makes more sense than Slavic, but who knows?

[FONT=&quot]" Among the most remarkable of these Norman adventurers were the sons of Tancred de Hauteville, who established their rule over the southern Italian regions of Calabria and Puglia (Apulia) in the 1050s and over Sicily in the following decades. Their possessions were amalgamated by Roger II, a grandson of Tancred, in the early 12th century as the kingdom of Sicily, whose rulers retained a basically Norman character until the last decades of that century."
[/FONT]http://www.orbilat.com/Encyclopaedia/N/Normans.html

Brindisi is part of Salento:
It encompasses the entire administrative area of the province of Lecce, a large part of the province of Brindisi and part of that of Taranto.

The peninsula is also known as Terra d'Otranto, and in the past Sallentina.

Also, I’m not sure if is important, but I see the Norman been mentioned, There is town in the province of Brindisi call San Vito Dei Normanni: Norman and some Slavic connection,
The village dates back to the Middle Ages (late 10th century), presumably by a colony of Slavs (emigrated from Slavonia) escaping the persecutions of the Saracens, and decided to settle in the fertile areas of San Vito founding "Castro Sancti Viti".[citation needed]

Some scholars believe that the city was founded by the Norman Bohemond of Hauteville ( 1050 - 1111 AD), son of Robert Guiscard, who, to satisfy his love of hunting, ordered the construction of a square tower, which still exists today.[6]

The small village originally grew in the late Middle Ages when the Normans ensured security from the constant attacks of the Saracens.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Vito_dei_Normanni

 

[Angela]

Brindisi is part of Salento:
It encompasses the entire administrative area of the province of Lecce, a large part of the province of Brindisi and part of that of Taranto.

The peninsula is also known as Terra d'Otranto, and in the past Sallentina.

Great. It's not, however, the Grecia Salentina I take it, from which the samples came, because there is a list of them in the paper and Brindisi is not listed.

Even if that were not the case, just how does this one sample, one which I pointed out, btw, change the fact that we were led to believe that FTDNA would show high levels of "Slavic" R1a in Puglia, and specifically in Grecia Salentina?

I'll save you the bother of answering. It doesn't.

I specifically asked for this data, which I was accused of discounting, btw, not once but twice. It wasn't made available until the poster Falco produced it.

Once posted, from the results of Grugni proving the R1a in Grecia Salentina is Slavic, to FtDna proving it, we move on to, well, FTDNA doesn't disprove it. Is this what's called a rearguard action?

There is no proof whatsoever for the assertions which were made but the poster's desire that this be the case, for who knows what reason. It makes no sense to me.

It's immaterial to me, btw, whether it is or not. I'm content to wait for actual proof of which one of the many possibilities is the correct one.

What is upsetting is that on this Board we really shouldn't have to fact check statements made by people who claim expertise in a subject.

That's it. As far as I'm concerned far too much time has already been wasted checking data and debating what seems to be a claim for which there is no factual evidence.

 

[zanipolo]

Let's analyze this post Azzurro, tell me why it deserves a down vote. I'm curious to know.

I have never read anything that says beyond a doubt that Illyrians settled in Puglia. All I know is that Messapic system comes from an Ionion system .

 

[Salento]

Great. It's not, however, the Grecia Salentina I take it, from which the samples came, because there is a list of them in the paper and Brindisi is not listed.

Even if that were not the case, just how does this one sample, one which I pointed out, btw, change the fact that we were led to believe that FTDNA would show high levels of "Slavic" R1a in Puglia, and specifically in Grecia Salentina?

I'll save you the bother of answering. It doesn't.

I specifically asked for this data, which I was accused of discounting, btw, not once but twice. It wasn't made available until the poster Falco produced it.

Once posted, from the results of Grugni proving the R1a in Grecia Salentina is Slavic, to FtDna proving it, we move on to, well, FTDNA doesn't disprove it. Is this what's called a rearguard action?

There is no proof whatsoever for the assertions which were made but the poster's desire that this be the case, for who knows what reason. It makes no sense to me.

It's immaterial to me, btw, whether it is or not. I'm content to wait for actual proof of which one of the many possibilities is the correct one.

What is upsetting is that on this Board we really shouldn't have to fact check statements made by people who claim expertise in a subject.

That's it. As far as I'm concerned far too much time has already been wasted checking data and debating what seems to be a claim for which there is no factual evidence.

I edited the post, some Norman and Slav input.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Vito_dei_Normanni

 

[Salento]

I’m starting to realize that some people don’t know what Salento and Grecia Salentina is, or the Location, plus they mix them up, and I’m Confuse at time. [emoji52]

 

[Salento]

I have never read anything that says beyond a doubt that Illyrians settled in Puglia. All I know is that Messapic system comes from an Ionion system .

I’ve never heard that the didn’t for sure either. Hopefully one day we will find out for sure.

 

[Salento]

I’m going to tell you a Fable, just a Generational Story that some people say and is not written anywhere:
A Tribe of Ancien Illyrian split in 2, one went toward what today is Venice, and the other went to Puglia. For a while they coordinated together to Control all the Adriatic Sea From North to South. Eventually they just remained in Veneto e Puglia.
It’s just an old Legend, with NOT scientific proof, but never the less is still more believable if a compare it with some of the Theory I’ve been reading.
[emoji39][emoji2]

 

[Promenade]

I have never read anything that says beyond a doubt that Illyrians settled in Puglia. All I know is that Messapic system comes from an Ionion system .

I've read books that stated it as a fact, as for a connection of R1a in Puglia with Illyrians it's impossible to tell since we don't even know what y-dna Illyrians had. It's not hard to connect the dots and assume an ancient population from what is now Albania is responsible for elevated J2b in Puglia on the other hand though. Illyrians (Iapygians) would be a likely culprit.

 

[FIREYWOTAN]

The new version of Office seems to add a number of different apps. The hardest part seems to be figuring out how to utilize them.

 

[Litovoi]

What about the 11,4% EV13 from Bergamo?
The city was of big military importance in Roman period, destroyed by Attila,which,despite the reputation ,has become very selective ,it automatically leads us to Bird's study
http://www.jogg.info/pages/32/bird.htm
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergamo
EDIT
Bergomum was connected with the Friuli region through a military road,from where you could have reached the Lower Danube,via the Sava and Drava valleys.
EDIT

Bergamo is also an isolated,mountainous, province,that would explain the preservation of a higher percentage of V-13,I mean,they were lucky this time.
Same thing for the Romano-Britons ,with the Saxon invasion that spreads them into the higher locations,like Wales,Western England,thus,keeping their genes.

It is important not only to link these haplogroups with certain historical contexts,but,even more,to go further, by establishing real chains,because only this way you can get a clear picture of the entire preservation and dispersion processes.
Concretely,the Bergamo lowlanders(BGP) have even higher levels of Italian ancestry,given by the U152 comparison,naturally, many of their genes are inherited from the original highlanders,the ancestors of today's BGVs,with the dispersions taking place for both general and specific reasons:the plains offers more food,by practising farming,that's why the polenta has become the traditional dish in North Italy,we have to consider here both spontaneous migrations,caused by starvation, and more institutionalized ones,because the Habsburgs have encouraged lowland settlings, for economical and security reasons.


To balance things,the BGVs have acquired additional I1, U106 and R1a-M17 from the Alpine German speakers,with the help of Habsburgs or not.


https://books.google.ro/books?id=vg...egQIDRAB#v=onepage&q=habsburg polenta&f=false


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yodeling

 

[Maciamo]

This is an unwarranted assumption considering the long ancient history of Greek and Illyrian settlement in Puglia.

Most of the R1a in Puglia, and indeed across most of Italy, is CTS1211, the main Slavic, or at least East European, branch.

I have analysed the R1a-CTS1211 in Italy, southern France and Spain and most of it falls under Y2902 clade, which has a TMRCA of only 2400 years according to Yfull. Most of the Y2902 subclades found both in Eastern Europe, Italy, southern France and Spain are less than 2000 years old. So the most reasonable explanation is that it is of Gothic origin. These R1a were originally East Europeans but were assimilated by the Goths when they moved to Poland and Ukraine, and came to Italy, France and Spain with the Ostrogoths and Visigoths.

So the R1a in Pulglia is neither Greek nor directly Slavic (as in Slavic migrations), but rather Gothic.

 

[FIREYWOTAN]

Thanks for the insights. At times it all seems overwhelming but having a focus changes my dynamics.

 

[Wonomyro]

Most of the R1a in Puglia, and indeed across most of Italy, is CTS1211, the main Slavic, or at least East European, branch.

I have analysed the R1a-CTS1211 in Italy, southern France and Spain and most of it falls under Y2902 clade, which has a TMRCA of only 2400 years according to Yfull. Most of the Y2902 subclades found both in Eastern Europe, Italy, southern France and Spain are less than 2000 years old. So the most reasonable explanation is that it is of Gothic origin. These R1a were originally East Europeans but were assimilated by the Goths when they moved to Poland and Ukraine, and came to Italy, France and Spain with the Ostrogoths and Visigoths.

So the R1a in Pulglia is neither Greek nor directly Slavic (as in Slavic migrations), but rather Gothic.

It seems that the map is no longer accurate regarding Croatia. The majority of R1a of Croatians, previously believed to be R1a-458, actually belong to a subclade R1a-CTS1211 (aka R1a-558). That makes sense as the similar proportions within R1a haplogroup exist in neighbouring Slovenia and Herzegovina. The exact percentages could be be found here:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22876/abstract

Detail data from different regions is also presented. (I can help in identifying of the geographic locations).

Some Italian R1a-CTS1211 therefore could arrived with the 15th century refugees from the Croatian coast as the effect of the Ottoman invasion. It was a real exodus actually. Some of them can still be found in Molise region:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molise_Croats

However, the majority of others were assimilated.

 

[Johane Derite]

Those "diversity estimates" are based on low STR resolution, which in today's age of NGS technology should not be taken seriously, as they mutate randomly and can't take into account bottlenecks, etc. It's the same methodology used by Dienekes years ago when he claimed E-V13 in Albania is coalescent of Roman/Late Antiquity times, suggesting a "recent" entrance in the Albanian gene pool, or something like that.

As Azzurro mentioned, Next Generation Sequencing is what's needed to understand these things better, and obviously ancient DNA.[/QUOTE]

Yes, dating is always iffy, in admixture too. When we get ancient dna we'll have to look back at this and see how close they got.

As to the rest, perhaps you missed my post:

"More, and more resolved data is always better. However, the VAST majority of R1a in Apulia and even in Grecia Salentina is certainly not M-458 (only 1.2% of it TOTAL is M-458, for which they tested), and I don't see any big amounts of "Slavic I2" there either, which there would be if it came after the Slavic invasions, since that's the majority of the "Slavic" y which is in the areas from which it would have come, so I see no logical justification for speculating that most of it is from the Slavic migrations."

Of course, ancient dna is best, then high resolution modern data. Given the history of the area, the data we do have, and no sufficiently resolved randomly selected data showing "Slavic" y dna in Puglia, why would you conclude, as Azzurro did, that most of it was from migrations after the era of the Slavic input into the Balkans, particularly from contact with Croatians in the Middle Ages and probably has nothing to do with Greeks or Illyrians? Based on what?

Perhaps it was just carelessness, but there's not justification for that. Can't go confusing newbies to the topic.



It makes no sense to me. At best, say we can't yet tell.

I dont think Trojet was getting involved on the slav comment, but rather said that just in regard to the supposed diversity estimates of ev13 in turkey. My mistake if I understood him wrong.

 

[Trojet]

I dont think Trojet was getting involved on the slav comment, but rather said that just in regard to the supposed diversity estimates of ev13 in turkey. My mistake if I understood him wrong.

That's exactly right, brother

 

[Salento]

It seems that the map is no longer accurate regarding Croatia. The majority of R1a of Croatians, previously believed to be R1a-458, actually belong to a subclade R1a-CTS1211 (aka R1a-558). That makes sense as the similar proportions within R1a haplogroup exist in neighbouring Slovenia and Herzegovina. The exact percentages could be be found here:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22876/abstract

Detail data from different regions is also presented. (I can help in identifying of the geographic locations).

Some Italian R1a-CTS1211 therefore could arrived with the 15th century refugees from the Croatian coast as the effect of the Ottoman invasion. It was a real exodus actually. Some of them can still be found in Molise region:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molise_Croats

However, the majority of others were assimilated.

I’m posting this again. Croatian and Norman Connections:
- San Vito Dei Normanni -
The village dates back to the Middle Ages (late 10th century), presumably by a colony of Slavs (emigrated from Slavonia) -(Slavonia is part of Croatia) - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavonia escaping the persecutions of the Saracens, and decided to settle in the fertile areas of San Vito founding "Castro Sancti Viti".
Some scholars believe that the city was founded by the Norman Bohemond of Hauteville ( 1050 - 1111 AD), son of Robert Guiscard, who, to satisfy his love of hunting, ordered the construction of a square tower, which still exists today.

The small village originally grew in the late Middle Ages when the Normans ensured security from the constant attacks of the Saracens.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Vito_dei_Normanni

 

[Sile]

The AP and GS both fall under messapian and history states messapic settled in Italy anytime between 900-600BC. We also know by strabo and levy ( roman historians ) that the illyrians began in the east-alps and only reached dalmatia by ~600BC, clearly these messapic could only be the following people, Greek, Thracian, Epirote or proto-albanian. We also have historians establishing both Greek and Thracian in the balkans from 3200BC

 

[Angela]

Most of the R1a in Puglia, and indeed across most of Italy, is CTS1211, the main Slavic, or at least East European, branch.

I have analysed the R1a-CTS1211 in Italy, southern France and Spain and most of it falls under Y2902 clade, which has a TMRCA of only 2400 years according to Yfull. Most of the Y2902 subclades found both in Eastern Europe, Italy, southern France and Spain are less than 2000 years old. So the most reasonable explanation is that it is of Gothic origin. These R1a were originally East Europeans but were assimilated by the Goths when they moved to Poland and Ukraine, and came to Italy, France and Spain with the Ostrogoths and Visigoths.

So the R1a in Pulglia is neither Greek nor directly Slavic (as in Slavic migrations), but rather Gothic.

Maciamo, could you point me to the studies that resolve the R1a in different areas of Italy by snp? I really want to add that to my files with citations to the papers if the question arises again.

Are you instead going by str data like that present in Boattini for the three samples from Lecce, perhaps? Boattini does provide 19 (ISOGG 2009)strs for each haplogroup in their study, although they only label it M17*.

I just quickly took a look at DiGaetano et al and they don't have Puglia samples. Plus, they only have 8 or 9 strs, which I would think wouldn't be sufficient.

Brisighelli et al does have the benefit of having samples from Grecia Salentina, which is the source of virtually all the R1a in this study for Puglia. They have values for, what, 16 strs? Strange that they don't post detailed resolutions if they're available. They find R1a in other places, but not in Grecia Salentina.

Very confusing. Are there other private companies besides FTDNA which give detailed resolutions by snp or lots of strs?

 

[Sile]

apulia dna ................I think the information was gathered from ftdna ..........I will check

E: 22%
J2a: 20%
G: 15%
R1b: 13%
J1: 8%
I2: 8%
I1: 6%
T: 5%
R1a: 5%

For E: We have 6 E-V13, which breakdown into 4 E-Y3183, 1 E-L17 and 1 E-FGC11457. We have 2 E-V12 and 1 E-Y2947.

For J2a: We have 2 J-M92, 2 J-Z6048, 1 J-PH4970 (J-L1064), 1 J-CTS7683 (needs further testing), 1 J-Z482 (very likely J-Y15222) and 1 J-M319.

For G: We have 1 that could not be further predicted so G-M201, 1 G-PF3345, 1 G-L293 (G-Z6653), G-L79 (seems very close to G-M377) and 1 G-CTS5990.

For R1b: We have 2 R-PF7563, 1 R-Y28788 and 2 just at R-M269.

For J1: We have 1 J-PF4872 (J-L829), 1 J-Z2324, and 1 J-ZS2513.

For I2: All under I-P37 there is 3.

For I1: We have one just at I-M253, 1 I-BY3411, and 1 I-L38

For T: We have 1 T-CTS8862 and 1 T-L131...................both belong to T1a2 branch

For R1a: We have 1 R-M12280 and 1 R-Z283.

 

[davef]

FTDNA's Italy project:
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Italy?iframe=yresults

No R1a in Puglia/Grecia Salentina, but curiously, several samples from Calabria test positive for it (plus two from Sicily).

Thanks, I'm going to see if my surname is in this list, I know nothing beats getting tested but it'll be fun