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    6 members found this post helpful.

    More Y Dna results from Italy

    In this case, although the paper is behind a pay wall, the Supplementary material, which is the meat of it, is publicly available.

    See:Reconstructing the genetic history of Italians: new insights from a male (Y-chromosome) perspective

    Viola Grugni et al

    http://tandfonline.com/doi/figure/10...eedAccess=true

    "AbstractBackground: Due to its central and strategic position in Europe and in the Mediterranean Basin, the Italian Peninsula played a pivotal role in the first peopling of the European continent and has been a crossroad of peoples and cultures since then.
    Aim: This study aims to gain more information on the genetic structure of modern Italian populations and to shed light on the migration/expansion events that led to their formation.
    Subjects and methods: High resolution Y-chromosome variation analysis in 817 unrelated males from 10 informative areas of Italy was performed. Haplogroup frequencies and microsatellite haplotypes were used, together with available data from the literature, to evaluate Mediterranean and European inputs and date their arrivals.


    Results: Fifty-three distinct Y-chromosome lineages were identified. Their distribution is in general agreement with geography, southern populations being more differentiated than northern ones.

    Conclusions: A complex genetic structure reflecting the multifaceted peopling pattern of the Peninsula emerged: southern populations show high similarity with those from the Middle East and Southern Balkans, while those from Northern Italy are close to populations of North-Western Europe and the Northern Balkans. Interestingly, the population of Volterra, an ancient town of Etruscan origin in Tuscany, displays a unique Y-chromosomal genetic structure.

    This is the link to the Supplementary material, which includes a Word Document describing the areas from which the new samples were taken, and lots of tables.

    http://tandfonline.com/doi/suppl/10....801?scroll=top

    Thanks to Jovialis for help in getting it into an easier format for my computer.

    It's of particular interest to me because they include Tortona/Voghera and Val Borbera as well as both the plains and valleys of Bergamo, along with Volterra, the two sides of Calabria, northern and southern Puglia, and Sicily.


    I've been pouring over the tables for the better part of 2 hours. Table 6 is the highest resolution (although it could still be better), because it shows the newest samples. Table 7 is the dating. I'm still working on correlating the two things. The word document is important especially for those who aren't familiar with the history and pre-history of these areas.

    With regard to southern Italian and Sicilian y dna they're talking about higher levels of E and J2, although there's clearly some in the north as well.

    In terms of Volterra, without the paper I'm at a loss as to what they see as so unique in the yDna structure, other than 4% "T". If anyone can see anything else, please share.

    I'm going to organize my impressions more, and then I'll post them if they seem worthwhile.





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    1 members found this post helpful.
    agree
    on Volterra it says
    VOLTERRA
    Geography
    Volterra is a town of Tuscany - Central Italy - in the province of Pisa. It is located on a rocky hill, between the Bra and Cecina rivers. Along with the districts of Castelnuovo Val di Cecina, Montecatini Val di Cecina and Pomarance, it is part of the Upper Cecina Valley. This region is surrounded by other neighbouring valleys: on the West there are the Lower Cecina and the Cornia Valleys; on the North the Era Valley, and on the East the Upper Elsa Valley. On the South it confines with the Colline Metallifere, a mountain-hill group in the Tuscan Anti-Apennine.
    In the surroundings of Volterra, the forests of Berignone-Tatti and Monterufoli are some of the wooded areas that form the landscape, often characterized by the Mediterranean shrub land, the dramatic landslides of the Balze area and rolling hills.
    Historical background
    The hill on which Volterra is located was already settled from the Iron Age onwards, as the Villanovan necropolis shows. During the Neolithic, Volterra was an important settlement of the Etruscans; part of the principal twelve cities of the Etruscans confederation. Volterra was more isolated than the other Etruscan cities, due to its geographical position, and it was one of the last cities to join the Roman Republic, in the III century B.C..
    The origin of Etruscans is still controversial and different hypotheses have been made: one sustains they came from Anatolia, another claims an autochthonous process of formation from the preceding Villanovan society. Lastly, influence from Northern Europe has also been hypothesized.

    I was interested in Vicenza with its 5% of T .............only because of a paternal line of mine, Matteo married Teresa Greslin in Schio ~1670 ..............Vicenza had a mix of trevisani and trentini merging there

    Only the T-M70 from this paper
    Picene , if ancient are Histri/Liburnian Illyrians
    L`Aquila with its 20% ( some found to be haplogroup LT ) would mostly likey be Samnites , speaking Sabellic , if so, can be also some South-Picene language which is also Sabellic
    .
    La Spezia to Massa in just north of ancient Volterra
    Last edited by Sile; 04-02-18 at 20:16.
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    agree
    on Volterra it says
    VOLTERRA
    Geography
    Volterra is a town of Tuscany - Central Italy - in the province of Pisa. It is located on a rocky hill, between the Bra and Cecina rivers. Along with the districts of Castelnuovo Val di Cecina, Montecatini Val di Cecina and Pomarance, it is part of the Upper Cecina Valley. This region is surrounded by other neighbouring valleys: on the West there are the Lower Cecina and the Cornia Valleys; on the North the Era Valley, and on the East the Upper Elsa Valley. On the South it confines with the Colline Metallifere, a mountain-hill group in the Tuscan Anti-Apennine.
    In the surroundings of Volterra, the forests of Berignone-Tatti and Monterufoli are some of the wooded areas that form the landscape, often characterized by the Mediterranean shrub land, the dramatic landslides of the Balze area and rolling hills.
    Historical background
    The hill on which Volterra is located was already settled from the Iron Age onwards, as the Villanovan necropolis shows. During the Neolithic, Volterra was an important settlement of the Etruscans; part of the principal twelve cities of the Etruscans confederation. Volterra was more isolated than the other Etruscan cities, due to its geographical position, and it was one of the last cities to join the Roman Republic, in the III century B.C..
    The origin of Etruscans is still controversial and different hypotheses have been made: one sustains they came from Anatolia, another claims an autochthonous process of formation from the preceding Villanovan society. Lastly, influence from Northern Europe has also been hypothesized.

    I was interested in Vicenza with its 5% of T .............only because of a paternal line of mine, Matteo married Teresa Greslin in Schio ~1670 ..............Vicenza had a mix of trevisani and trentini merging there

    Only the T-M70 from this paper
    Picene , if ancient are Histri/Liburnian Illyrians
    L`Aquila with its 20% ( some found to be haplogroup LT ) would mostly likey be Samnites , speaking Sabellic , if so, can be also some South-Picene language which is also Sabellic
    .
    La Spezia to Massa in just north of ancient Volterra
    l`Aquila
    This was the land of Samnium inhabited by the Caraceni
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caraceni_(tribe)
    .
    Their northern neighbours
    The Frentani[1] were an Italic tribe occupying the tract on the east coast of the peninsula from the Apennines to the Adriatic, and from the frontiers of Apulia to those of the Marrucini. They were bounded on the west by the Samnites, with whom they were closely connected, and from whom they were originally descended. Hence Scylax assigns the whole of this line of coast, from the frontiers of Apulia to those of Picenum, to the Samnites.[2] Their exact limits are less clearly defined, and there is considerable discrepancy in the statements of ancient geographers: Larinum, with its territory (extending from the Tifernus (modern Biferno) to the Frento), being by some writers termed a city of the Frentani,[3] while the more general opinion included it in Apulia, and thus made the river Tifernus (Biferno) the limit of the two countries.[4] The northern boundary of the Frentani is equally uncertain; both Strabo[5] and Ptolemy[6] concur in fixing it at the river Sagrus (modern Sangro), while Pliny extends their limits as far as the Aternus,
    .
    both spoke a Sabellic language

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    In terms of Volterra, without the paper I'm at a loss as to what they see as so unique in the yDna structure, other than 4% "T". If anyone can see anything else, please share.
    Volterra is also special for having 1% of haplogroup F* (possibly H) and 1% of K* (possibly L), both of which are exceedingly rare. But as they sample size is only 113, these are just single individuals. They might not be representative. Volterra also has a relatively high percentage of G2a (13.3%), closer to southern Italy than to the Tuscan average.
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    thanks angela for sharing :)
    there was also m123* without the e-m34 mutation in volterra 1.8%
    up until now those rare cases where found in north portugal .....
    but to find it in volterra an etruscan area.... surprising.
    and e-m35*{m78,m81,m123} was found in 3.5% in ligurian valley
    for me personally it is nice to see e-m34 in 6% in apuglia {samples from southern area but not the grico minority}
    and e-v13 is one of common y haplogroups along with j2,g2, r1b-s116,r1b-u152
    with kind regards
    adam

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Besides T, an appreciable % of G-L497 in Volterra, perhaps comparable to the % in Trentino, Austrian Tyrol...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Besides T, an appreciable % of G-L497 in Volterra, perhaps comparable to the % in Trentino, Austrian Tyrol...
    Looks like a lot of tyrolese moved to Tuscany , Lombardy and Veneto ................the question is , were they germans at that point in time or did they flee germans or the earlier celts who entered the alps from central/south Germany

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    More Y Dna results from Italy

    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Looks like a lot of tyrolese moved to Tuscany , Lombardy and Veneto ................the question is , were they germans at that point in time or did they flee germans or the earlier celts who entered the alps from central/south Germany
    I’ve been wandering why the Y T is not as popular as others modern haplogroups.
    We are the minority everywhere, regardless of the Subclades, We are few, but widespread.
    Something Really Bad probably happened at some point to the Primary T Tribe. Unlesss our Ancestors were ugly and Women didn’t find them Attractive, lol
    But you oh Messapo, Tamer of Horses ... that no one, with neither iron nor fire can break down! “Virgil”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    I’ve been wandering why the Y T is not as popular as others modern haplogroups.
    We are the minority everywhere, regardless of the Subclades, We are few, but widespread.
    Something Really Bad probably happened at some point to the Primary T Tribe. Unlesss our Ancestors were ugly and Women didn’t find them Attractive, lol
    T is still widespread
    C1a2 and H2 became very rare

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    @Sile
    It seems the frequency of G-L497 in Austrian Tyrol is relatively high, similar to the observed in SW Germany, Swiss, Trentino and perhaps even TV province etc. (subclade G-L42 probably being more common in these areas) and parts of Central Italy (like Foligno, with abt. 16%, based on Boattini's study and DYS388=13), however, I'm not sure about its diversity. In the paper discussed here there's a map showing the highest diversity around Central Germany, and that's surprised me, since I would have guessed it was around SW Germany, Swiss... Possibly this is true just to its most common subclade Z1823 (the best G-L497 phylogenetic trees are in the related project in FTDNA), which is pretty widespread.
    Btw, the Tryppilian Outlier (in Ukraine) from a recent study was identified as G-L42, but I'm not sure it's reliable, since it's not in the latest versions of the paper.
    Anyway, G-L497 is an old Neolithic haplogroup, and its subclades must have different stories, naturally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    G-L497 definitely looks like it's coming from the north, but with whom?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Looks like a lot of tyrolese moved to Tuscany , Lombardy and Veneto ................the question is , were they germans at that point in time or did they flee germans or the earlier celts who entered the alps from central/south Germany
    I wonder too. My speculations: maybe Celts/Italics, since its distribution resembles a bit the U152's. Indeed, a skeleton from Mitterkirchen related to the Celts was identified as G-L140, and according to me the guy was probably G-L497 based on his STR markers. But Germanic tribes could have brought some lineages more recently, like, say, G-CTS4803, G-Z16775...
    Some subclades (even main - more common - subclades) could be related to the Etruscan/Rhaetians too. Who knows! Hope we figure it out. :)

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Btw, the Tryppilian Outlier (in Ukraine) from a recent study was identified as G-L42, but I'm not sure it's reliable, since it's not in the latest versions of the paper.
    Good that someone finally writte about it here. It's definitely that G-L42 from first version of that study is ''fake'', considering that is the only sample which is deleted in latest version. From the first version it was be clear that there is something strange with that sample, considering that L42 TMRCA and forming date doesn't coincides with that L42 dating.

    Anyway, G-L497 is an old Neolithic haplogroup, and its subclades must have different stories, naturally.
    Exactly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    @Sile
    It seems the frequency of G-L497 in Austrian Tyrol is relatively high, similar to the observed in SW Germany, Swiss, Trentino and perhaps even TV province etc. (subclade G-L42 probably being more common in these areas) and parts of Central Italy (like Foligno, with abt. 16%, based on Boattini's study and DYS388=13), however, I'm not sure about its diversity. In the paper discussed here there's a map showing the highest diversity around Central Germany, and that's surprised me, since I would have guessed it was around SW Germany, Swiss... Possibly this is true just to its most common subclade Z1823 (the best G-L497 phylogenetic trees are in the related project in FTDNA), which is pretty widespread.
    Btw, the Tryppilian Outlier (in Ukraine) from a recent study was identified as G-L42, but I'm not sure it's reliable, since it's not in the latest versions of the paper.
    Anyway, G-L497 is an old Neolithic haplogroup, and its subclades must have different stories, naturally.



    I wonder too. My speculations: maybe Celts/Italics, since its distribution resembles a bit the U152's. Indeed, a skeleton from Mitterkirchen related to the Celts was identified as G-L140, and according to me the guy was probably G-L497 based on his STR markers. But Germanic tribes could have brought some lineages more recently, like, say, G-CTS4803, G-Z16775...
    Some subclades (even main - more common - subclades) could be related to the Etruscan/Rhaetians too. Who knows! Hope we figure it out. :)
    I've speculated that G-P303 was the "Caucasus" minority of Maykop among the predominantly R1b IE speakers.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    ^^Yes, I was about to say that most of the G in Volterra is G-L497. The total G there is 13.3%, and G-L497 is 7.1%. Total "G" is higher in the Val Borbera where the total G is 15.3%, and G-L497 is 12.9%.

    Central Italy is pretty high, with a total of 13.3%.

    The "G" in the south is actually a bit lower, and is largely of a different type:

    Tyrhennian Calabria: 12.3%
    Apulia 11.8
    Sicily 10.9
    S.Italy 8.5
    Ionian Calabria 5.3%

    So, I think to look at total "G" numbers is a little misleading; you have to look at the sub-clades. Plus, as I said, much of southern Italy actually has lower numbers than Central Italy, probably because the G-L497 wave didn't have as much impact there. You had some coming up the peninsula, some down, and where they met in Central Italy, you have some of the highest numbers.

    Makes you wonder who brought that G-L497.

    I also think it's important not to make too much of any of the results from the Val Borbera. This area is even more remote than my father's villages in the Val Cedra. In his area the roads went in during the 1920s or so. The Val Borbera didn't have good roads until a couple of years ago. The authors make a point of emphasizing that they do genetic studies there because of the inbreeding. So, y lines are going to drift to prominence randomly.

    I think that also explains the three E-M35* samples found there. Btw, Kingjohn, there's no E-M81 there. That shows up in southern Italy. In addition to those E-M35* samples, there's 1 E-M78 and 1 E-V13. The last two would, I think, probably have drifted up from the coast, which had its own small Greek emporia, and which was also close to the Greek colony in Massalia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ^^Yes, I was about to say that most of the G in Volterra is G-L497. The total G there is 13.3%, and G-L497 is 7.1%. Total "G" is higher in the Val Borbera where the total G is 15.3%, and G-L497 is 12.9%.

    Central Italy is pretty high, with a total of 13.3%.

    The "G" in the south is actually a bit lower, and is largely of a different type:

    Tyrhennian Calabria: 12.3%
    Apulia 11.8
    Sicily 10.9
    S.Italy 8.5
    Ionian Calabria 5.3%

    So, I think to look at total "G" numbers is a little misleading; you have to look at the sub-clades. Plus, as I said, much of southern Italy actually has lower numbers than Central Italy, probably because the G-L497 wave didn't have as much impact there. You had some coming up the peninsula, some down, and where they met in Central Italy, you have some of the highest numbers.

    Makes you wonder who brought that G-L497.

    I also think it's important not to make too much of any of the results from the Val Borbera. This area is even more remote than my father's villages in the Val Cedra. In his area the roads went in during the 1920s or so. The Val Borbera didn't have good roads until a couple of years ago. The authors make a point of emphasizing that they do genetic studies there because of the inbreeding. So, y lines are going to drift to prominence randomly.

    I think that also explains the three E-M35* samples found there. Btw, Kingjohn, there's no E-M81 there. That shows up in southern Italy. In addition to those E-M35* samples, there's 1 E-M78 and 1 E-V13. The last two would, I think, probably have drifted up from the coast, which had its own small Greek emporia, and which was also close to the Greek colony in Massalia.
    yes but it was found in 6% in sicily in this study
    wish i knew from where in sicily the samples were taken :)
    kind regards
    adam

    p.s
    you have a point on the val borbera though....
    although i do believe that some e-m35* could have been present among the ligurians

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    yes but it was found in 6% in sicily in this study
    wish i knew from where in sicily the samples were taken :)
    kind regards
    adam

    p.s
    you have a point on the val borbera though....
    although i do believe that some e-m35* could have been present among the ligurians
    Because of small number of samples. In Heraklides et al. there were 765 samples from Sicily and E-M81 was only 1.6%.

    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    Because of small number of samples. In Heraklides et al. there were 765 samples from Sicily and E-M81 was only 1.6%.

    Interesting.
    Do you have a link to the Heraklides study?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Interesting.
    Do you have a link to the Heraklides study?
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0179474

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Interesting.
    Do you have a link to the Heraklides study?
    thanks for this table that 13% e-m123 in greek cypriotes
    more common than in the levnat 5% in modern times ... :)
    i think maybe e-m123 was more common in ancient time :)
    i still would like to know from where in sicily the samples were taken in this study .....
    maybe from place there was more carthegenian influence in sicly ?
    or more moors print ?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Some interesting graphics from the paper on yDna frequency and variance for some of these y clades Europe wide. The column to the left is frequency, the column to the right is variance.
    Attachment 9713

    Attachment 9714

    Attachment 9715

    I would speculate that the R1b S116 correlates with the ties between southern France and northwestern Italy, which is the only place it appears in these percentages. (You can see it in the figures for the Val Borbera especially, but also in Tortona and Bergamo.)

    Might that explain the consistent "Iberian" percentages we get in autosomal calculators?

    G-L497 definitely looks like it's coming from the north, but with whom?

    As to J2, there doesn't seem to be one particular clade that is prominent in Toscana does there according to this graphic? It looks like it has a bit of a few of them, including J2b.

    Surprised at the amount of J2a-M67* in Portugal and northwestern Spain. It looks as if it went from the southern Balkans, hit far southern Italy, and then went through the Straits of Gibralter to western Iberia.

    E-V13s highest variance is Turkey/Anatolia. Perhaps a spread from there to the Balkans, and up into Central Europe, and also on to Italy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Some interesting graphics from the paper on yDna frequency and variance for some of these y clades Europe wide. The column to the left is frequency, the column to the right is variance.
    Attachment 9713
    Attachment 9714
    Attachment 9715
    I would speculate that the R1b S116 correlates with the ties between southern France and northwestern Italy, which is the only place it appears in these percentages. (You can see it in the figures for the Val Borbera especially, but also in Tortona and Bergamo.)
    Might that explain the consistent "Iberian" percentages we get in autosomal calculators?
    G-L497 definitely looks like it's coming from the north, but with whom?
    As to J2, there doesn't seem to be one particular clade that is prominent in Toscana does there according to this graphic? It looks like it has a bit of a few of them, including J2b.
    Surprised at the amount of J2a-M67* in Portugal and northwestern Spain. It looks as if it went from the southern Balkans, hit far southern Italy, and then went through the Straits of Gibralter to western Iberia.
    E-V13s highest variance is Turkey/Anatolia. Perhaps a spread from there to the Balkans, and up into Central Europe, and also on to Italy?
    G-L497 is from Berger 2013 Austrian paper, where the austrians have about 80% of this SNP of their total G haplogroup..........it is also linked to Northern Romania. It was noted in that paper that its origins is tyrolese............

    http://www.blutspendezuerich.ch/Medi...20G%282%29.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Some interesting graphics from the paper on yDna frequency and variance for some of these y clades Europe wide. The column to the left is frequency, the column to the right is variance.
    The attachments are not opening up. If you go to https://imgur.com/ and click "new post" you can then just drag and drop all the files you wish to create
    a URL for and then attach them onto Eupedia with a url the way you usually attach photos of people from the web.
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    The attachments are not opening up. If you go to https://imgur.com/ and click "new post" you can then just drag and drop all the files you wish to create
    a URL for and then attach them onto Eupedia with a url the way you usually attach photos of people from the web.
    Thanks, Johane. I'm just going to do it here.

    Some interesting graphics from the paper on yDna frequency and variance for some of these y clades Europe wide. The column to the left is frequency, the column to the right is variance.
    [IMG][/IMG]





    I would speculate that the R1b S116 correlates with the ties between southern France and northwestern Italy, which is the only place it appears in these percentages. (You can see it in the figures for the Val Borbera especially, but also in Tortona and Bergamo.)

    Might that explain the consistent "Iberian" percentages we get in autosomal calculators?

    Interesting also that the highest variance is in southern France over toward the Spanish border, but that Spain has extremely low variance.

    G-L497 definitely looks like it's coming from the north, but with whom?

    [IMG][/IMG]

    As to J2, there doesn't seem to be one particular clade that is prominent in Toscana does there according to this graphic? It looks like it has a bit of a few of them, including J2b.

    Surprised at the amount of J2a-M67* in Portugal and northwestern Spain. It looks as if it went from the southern Balkans, hit far southern Italy, and then went through the Straits of Gibralter to western Iberia.

    E-V13s highest variance is Turkey/Anatolia. Perhaps a spread from there to the Balkans, and up into Central Europe, and also on to Italy?

    This is the network for U-152.
    [IMG][/IMG]

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Is it just my fancy imagination or is the higher concentrations in the map of variance of J2a-M67 relatively similar to the maps of Hurrian-Urartian kingdoms/dominions during ? I have myself wondered if there is any possible link between the expansion of several clades of J2 and the clear north-to-south and northeast-to-northwest expansion of Hurrian and Urartian languages/peoples in the Bronze Age (not that the J2 expansion happened only with them, but that they were maybe one of the latest stages of that expansion that we could only know about because they were already in a literate civilized age).

    In my admittedly lunatic, but funny, speculations about the main original language family of haplogroups that expanded more recently (from the Copper Age on), I tend to associate J2 with Hurrian-Urartian and Northeast Caucasian. But let's leave it at that.

    See maps of the territory of Mitanni (Indo-Aryan military/political elite, but mostly a Hurrian-speaking state and area), Urartu and other Hurrian-Urartian kingdoms:





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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela
    ^^Yes, I was about to say that most of the G in Volterra is G-L497. The total G there is 13.3%, and G-L497 is 7.1%. Total "G" is higher in the Val Borbera where the total G is 15.3%, and G-L497 is 12.9%.

    Central Italy is pretty high, with a total of 13.3%.

    The "G" in the south is actually a bit lower, and is largely of a different type:

    Tyrhennian Calabria: 12.3%
    Apulia 11.8
    Sicily 10.9
    S.Italy 8.5
    Ionian Calabria 5.3%

    So, I think to look at total "G" numbers is a little misleading; you have to look at the sub-clades. Plus, as I said, much of southern Italy actually has lower numbers than Central Italy, probably because the G-L497 wave didn't have as much impact there. You had some coming up the peninsula, some down, and where they met in Central Italy, you have some of the highest numbers.

    Makes you wonder who brought that G-L497.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    G-L497 definitely looks like it's coming from the north, but with whom?

    As to J2, there doesn't seem to be one particular clade that is prominent in Toscana does there according to this graphic? It looks like it has a bit of a few of them, including J2b.
    I didn't notice in the frequency table that the G2a in Volterra was mostly L497. That actually solves the problem. I have maintained at least since 2013 in my Genetic History of the Italians (specifically here) that G2a-L497 was the second main Hallstatt lineage after R1b-U152, and by extension also that of the Italic tribes and La Tène (Gaulish/Belgic) tribes. The correlation between G2a-L497 and R1b-U152 is very strong.






    I have explained in detail in the G2a page that it is particularly the G2a-Z1816 branch of L497 that seems to have spread with R1b from Yamna until the Alps. The oldest Z1816 was found in a Trypillian outlier just before the Yamna expansion.

    I explained in the Genetic History of the Italians that the four main haplogroups of the ancient Italic tribes, including the Romans, were R1b-U152 (esp. the Z56 and Z192 branches), G2a-L497 (Z1816, although specific deep clades remain to be identified) and J2a-L70.

    J2b is more likely of Greek or Balkanic origin. I have associated J2b2-L283 with the Illyrians and Mycenaean Greeks, while J2b1 is more widely West Asian, Greek and West Balkanic.

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    A few notes about comparing the Val Borbera and Tortona, barely fifty minutes apart by car, and which are both part of the province of Alessandria, Piemonte (although the Val Borbera was part of Liguria until very, very recently):
    [IMG][/IMG]

    I wanted to see if, in addition to the founder effects and drift in Val Borbera, some different migration patterns might be the cause of the differences in frequencies, such as they are.

    I say such as they are, because the U-152 is much the same (35 vs. 30), the total R1b is much the same (56 to 63), and many of the other clade frequencies are pretty close.

    There are a few differences. One is that Val Borbera has more S116 than Tortona, 12.8% versus 8.3%, yet it is Tortona which has the documented Celtic settlements. Val Borbera was first settled by Ligures in the Iron Age, but Tortona was first settled in the Neolithic, and there is then a record of Ligures, Iberian, Celtic, and Roman presence. ( This is the first I've heard of an "Iberian" presence. I'm going to have to investigate that.) Is that just drift in operation again?

    In terms of Tortona vs Val Borbera, one of the biggest differences, I think, is that Tortona has 20% J2 (2 clades) to only 8% for Val Borbera. Might that be because Tortona/Vorghera was the site of a very large Roman settlement, at the junction of two very important roads?

    I was also interested to see if there were traces of the Langobard presence in Val Borbera, given the plethora of Langobard castles there. Oddly, it is Tortona, not Val Borbera, which has 4% R1b U-106, and some few percent of "I" more than Val Borbera. So, I don't know what to make of that.

    Tortona also has 8% R1a M17*; there is no 458 which is the only specific clade for which they tested. I don't know what to make of that either. Could it be something carried by the Langobards, and again, it's not that this wasn't present in Val Borbera, but it drifted out?

    Here is the chart from the Supp:

    [IMG][/IMG]

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