More Y Dna results from Italy

There is an interesting peak of J2b-M241 (L283) in NW Italy and Apulia. This is the second study I have seen to have J2b-L283 in Apulia at 5-6% range. I wonder if this could be tied to the ancient Illyrian migrations. It would be interesting to have these samples NGS tested, but I have a hunch (as suggested by an STR study) some might be under Z1296>Y20899, Z1296>>Y23094, etc, which are pretty commonly found on the other side of the Adriatic. E-V13 is pretty common in Apulia as well...
2314254.jpg

This might explain some hypothesis about Illyrian migrations: The Iapygians
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapygians

KgVtfYR_d.jpg
 
There is an interesting peak of J2b-M241 (L283) in NW Italy and Apulia. This is the second study I have seen to have J2b-L283 in Apulia at 5-6% range. I wonder if this could be tied to the ancient Illyrian migrations. It would be interesting to have these samples NGS tested, but I have a hunch (as suggested by an STR study) some might be under Z1296>Y20899, Z1296>>Y23094, etc, which are pretty commonly found on the other side of the Adriatic. E-V13 is pretty common in Apulia as well...
2314254.jpg

maybe or only half via across the adriatic sea and the other half down from the alps ...............8.8% R1b-U152 and also otzi` G2a-L91 is found in apulia
 
Excellent points from both Trojet and Salento, to add more to the Illyrian-Iapygian connection, in ftdna datbases we see results of E-V13>S2972 and R1b-PF7563 in Puglia which can be further evidence.
 
Excellent points from both Trojet and Salento, to add more to the Illyrian-Iapygian connection, in ftdna datbases we see results of E-V13>S2972 and R1b-PF7563 in Puglia which can be further evidence.
confusing part is the AP and GS ( lecce ) both known as messapic and both with a high R1a-M17 ............clearly GS is greek or maybe they might mean epirote.
and both similar in E-V13
.
plus I have doubts like this article that I read
https://www.researchgate.net/public..._Apulia_in_the_fifth_and_fourth_centuries_BCE
that messapic is Illyrian.
.
If it is Illyrian I think it might be to do with the
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapydes
who either sailed from the north Adriatic sea near istria or where brought to Apulia by the seafaring Liburnians who at that stage should have still owned corfu
 
confusing part is the AP and GS ( lecce ) both known as messapic and both with a high R1a-M17 ............clearly GS is greek or maybe they might mean epirote.
and both similar in E-V13
.
plus I have doubts like this article that I read
https://www.researchgate.net/public..._Apulia_in_the_fifth_and_fourth_centuries_BCE
that messapic is Illyrian.
.
If it is Illyrian I think it might be to do with the
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapydes
who either sailed from the north Adriatic sea near istria or where brought to Apulia by the seafaring Liburnians who at that stage should have still owned corfu
It’s probably a bit of Everything:

Roca (also known as Rocavecchia or Roca Vecchia) is an archaeological site located on the Adriatic coast of Apulia in Southern Italy, ......
The site, which has been explored since the end of the 1980s by a team of the University of Salento, has produced some of the best-preserved monumental architecture of the Bronze Age (2nd millennium BC) in Southern Italy, along with the largest set of Mycenaean pottery ever recovered west of mainland Greece.
....... writing of thousands of dedications to a local deity in three languages: Greek, Messapic and Latin.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roca_(archaeological_site)

Messapian language
..... is an extinct Indo-European language of southeastern Italy, once spoken in the region of Apulia. It was spoken by the three Iapygian tribes of the region: the Messapians, the Peucetians and the Daunians. The language has been preserved in about 300 inscriptions dating from the 6th to the 1st century BC.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapian_language
 
confusing part is the AP and GS ( lecce ) both known as messapic and both with a high R1a-M17 ............clearly GS is greek or maybe they might mean epirote.
and both similar in E-V13
.
plus I have doubts like this article that I read
https://www.researchgate.net/public..._Apulia_in_the_fifth_and_fourth_centuries_BCE
that messapic is Illyrian.
.
If it is Illyrian I think it might be to do with the
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapydes
who either sailed from the north Adriatic sea near istria or where brought to Apulia by the seafaring Liburnians who at that stage should have still owned corfu

In that article it never says that Messapic isn’t Illyrian? R1a in Puglia could be Slavic in origin and probably has nothing to do with Illyrians and Greeks.

This paragraph from the Molise Croats page on wikipedia talks about the history of Slavs in Italy which isn’t limited to Molise Croats.

”[FONT=&quot]The [/FONT]Adriatic Sea[FONT=&quot] since the [/FONT]Early Middle Ages[FONT=&quot]connected the Croatian and Italian coast.[/FONT][11][FONT=&quot]The historical sources from 10-11th centuries mention Slavic incursions in [/FONT]Calabria[FONT=&quot], and [/FONT]Gargano[FONT=&quot] peninsula.[/FONT][11][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Gerhard Rohlfs[FONT=&quot] in dialects from Gargano found many old Croatian lexical remains, and two toponyms [/FONT]Peschici[FONT=&quot]([/FONT]*pěskъ-[FONT=&quot]) and [/FONT]Lesina[FONT=&quot] ([/FONT]*lěsь[FONT=&quot], forest), which indicate [/FONT]Chakavian dialect[FONT=&quot].[/FONT][12][FONT=&quot] In 12th century are confirmed toponyms [/FONT]Castelluccio degli Schiavoni[FONT=&quot] and [/FONT]San Vito degli Schiavoni[FONT=&quot].[/FONT][11][FONT=&quot] In 13th and until 15th century toponyms [/FONT]Slavi cum casalibus[FONT=&quot] ([/FONT]Otranto[FONT=&quot], 1290), [/FONT]Castellucium de Slavis[FONT=&quot] ([/FONT]Capitanata[FONT=&quot], 1305), [/FONT]casale Sclavorum[FONT=&quot]([/FONT]Lavorno[FONT=&quot], 1306), [/FONT]clerici de Schalvis[FONT=&quot] ([/FONT]Trivento[FONT=&quot], 1328), [/FONT]S. Martini in Sclavis[FONT=&quot] (Marsia, 13th century), [/FONT]S. Nikolò degli Schiavoni[FONT=&quot] ([/FONT]Vasto[FONT=&quot], 1362).[/FONT][13][FONT=&quot] In 1487 the residents of [/FONT]Ancona[FONT=&quot]differed the [/FONT]Slavi[FONT=&quot], previously settled, and the newcomers [/FONT]Morlacchi[FONT=&quot].[/FONT][10][FONT=&quot] In 16th century, [/FONT]Abraham Ortelius[FONT=&quot] in his [/FONT]Theatrum Orbis Terrarum[FONT=&quot] (1570), West of Gargano in today's province of Molise mentioned [/FONT]Dalmatia[FONT=&quot],[/FONT][14][FONT=&quot] and on Gargano also exist cape [/FONT]Porto Croatico[FONT=&quot] and cove [/FONT]Valle Croatica[FONT=&quot].[/FONT][15]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molise_Croats

This probably explains the R1a.

As for Iagypians and the Illyrian link, these 3 haplogroups shared between Albanians and Pugliese give a nice support, keep in mind that Puglia also has very little Arbereshe settlements (3 in total, 2 in Foggia and 1 in Taranto), so this would mean the connection is quite old.
 
^^From the Grugni et al 2018 paper which is the subject of this thread:

T and U are Apulia, and V and W are Grecia Salentina. These necessarily look like Slavic y lines to you? Do the STRS say all that M17* is "Slavic"? If not, then they're apparently not.

km4syBU.png
[/IMG]
 
^^From the Grugni et al 2018 paper which is the subject of this thread:

T and U are Apulia, and V and W are Grecia Salentina. These necessarily look like Slavic y lines to you? Do the STRS say all that M17* is "Slavic"? If not, then they're apparently not.

km4syBU.png
[/IMG]

Plus, a lot of the attributed "Slavic" in places like Croatia and the parts of the Balkans facing Apulia and Grecia Salentina is by way of "I2" lines, yes? If you look at the chart, not much of that in Apulia and Grecia Salentina either, unless I'm missing something.

That would seem to point rather to older migrations it seems to me.
 
R1a in Puglia could be Slavic in origin and probably has nothing to do with Illyrians and Greeks.

This is an unwarranted assumption considering the long ancient history of Greek and Illyrian settlement in Puglia.
 
There is an interesting peak of J2b-M241 (L283) in NW Italy and Apulia. This is the second study I have seen to have J2b-L283 in Apulia at 5-6% range. I wonder if this could be tied to the ancient Illyrian migrations. It would be interesting to have these samples NGS tested, but I have a hunch (as suggested by an STR study) some might be under Z1296>Y20899, Z1296>>Y23094, etc, which are pretty commonly found on the other side of the Adriatic. E-V13 is pretty common in Apulia as well...
2314254.jpg
What about the 11,4% EV13 from Bergamo?
The city was of big military importance in Roman period, destroyed by Attila,which,despite the reputation ,has become very selective ,it automatically leads us to Bird's study

http://www.jogg.info/pages/32/bird.htm

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergamo

EDIT
Bergomum was connected with the Friuli region through a military road,from where you could have reached the Lower Danube,via the Sava and Drava valleys.
EDIT
Bergamo is also an isolated,mountainous, province,that would explain the preservation of a higher percentage of V-13,I mean,they were lucky this time.
Same thing for the Romano-Britons ,with the Saxon invasion that spreads them into the higher locations,like Wales,Western England,thus,keeping their genes.
 
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If you look at the maps upthread the "E-V13" is all the way up the peninsula. It may have diffused from the coasts inland. Liguria has quite a bit, and so does the Adriatic coast.
 
I think it would be good to take a good look at the age estimates in Table S7. Too bad they don't do all the areas.

The J2a M67* seems to be very young in Portugal and very old in Italy and southeast Europe: 1.4 thousand years ago for the former.

The only relatively recent J2a-M92 in Italy is in Sardinia, which makes complete sense. In the rest of Italy it's also got older dates.

Going strictly by the dates, E-V13 is oldest in Turkey, then Greece and Bulgaria, then Ukraine, then Fyrom Albanian, then Bosnian Serb, then Grecia Salentina, then Calabria and regular Albanian about the same time, and then Croatia, yes? Am i interpreting this correctly? Wish they had Liguria.

Also interesting is J2b-M241:

It seems to be oldest in Apulia: 6.7. Bulgaria, Volterra and Sardinia seem to be about the same: 4.1. Perhaps metalsmiths from "Old Europe". Then Albania at 3.2. Of course, these are approximations at best.

Maybe Trojet can chime in.
 
Half of it is isolated and mountainous. That's why there are two sets of results for Bergamo. They wanted to see if it made a difference. The higher percentage is actually in the plain for E-V13: 11.4%. The mountainous valleys is lower with 7.7%.

More "J" in the plain, although the "high" is 6.3%, more U-152 on the plain by 53 to 46, but more total R1b in the mountain valleys, including that S116, for a total R1b of 81% in the mountain valleys vs 71% on the more accessible plains. Those are Garfagnana type levels, which I thought were the highest. Maybe DF-27 or L-21? Also a bit more upstream R1b in the mountainous valleys.

By the way, could someone get a legible screen shot of Table S6 with the higher resolution for all the new samples? I can't seem to do it.

Ed. The dating page would be nice too.
 
I think it would be good to take a good look at the age estimates in Table S7. Too bad they don't do all the areas.

The J2a M67* seems to be very young in Portugal and very old in Italy and southeast Europe: 1.4 thousand years ago for the former.

The only relatively recent J2a-M92 in Italy is in Sardinia, which makes complete sense. In the rest of Italy it's also got older dates.

Going strictly by the dates, E-V13 is oldest in Turkey, then Greece and Bulgaria, then Ukraine, then Fyrom Albanian, then Bosnian Serb, then Grecia Salentina, then Calabria and regular Albanian about the same time, and then Croatia, yes? Am i interpreting this correctly? Wish they had Liguria.

Also interesting is J2b-M241:

It seems to be oldest in Apulia: 6.7. Bulgaria, Volterra and Sardinia seem to be about the same: 4.1. Perhaps metalsmiths from "Old Europe". Then Albania at 3.2. Of course, these are approximations at best.

Maybe Trojet can chime in.

I haven't seen the data about age estimates etc. but I have said elsewhere that E-V13 may have something to do with Cardial Neolithic (other haplogroups could have played a role, possibly more important, I don't know). It is found for example in Epicardial Spain.

I also believed it was wrong to connect it to proto-Greeks. Maybe Myceneans didn't have any or had little but later (more 'northern') groups like the Dorians or maybe the Macedonians had more, especially if an important entry point in Europe was in or around Thessaly.
 
I think an NGS dna paper on Italy is desperately needed, subclades are too vague in this paper, deeper anaylsis is crucial.
 
More, and more resolved data is always better. However, the VAST majority of R1a in Apulia and even in Grecia Salentina is certainly not M-458 (only 1.2% of it TOTAL is M-458, for which they tested), and I don't see any big amounts of "Slavic I2" there either, which there would be if it came after the Slavic invasions, since that's the majority of the "Slavic" y which is in the areas from which it would have come, so I see no logical justification for speculating that most of it is from the Slavic migrations.
 
More, and more resolved data is always better. However, the VAST majority of R1a in Apulia and even in Grecia Salentina is certainly not M-458 (only 1.2% of it TOTAL is M-458, for which they tested), and I don't see any big amounts of "Slavic I2" there either, which there would be if it came after the Slavic invasions, since that's the majority of the "Slavic" y which is in the areas from which it would have come, so I see no logical justification for speculating that most of it is from the Slavic migrations.

R1a in Italy is very low in general, the high R1a in Graecia Salentina is probably founder effect and thus not really representative. The majority of Italian R1a is under CTS1211 as seen from results in ftdna, CTS1211 is also largely Slavic as well. The other 2 R1a’s found in Italians usually are under Z284 (Germanic) and Z93 (which is the least common R1a branch in Italy).

Also Byzantines imployed Slavic mercenaries, there are Yfull results from the Sardinian paper on Yfull which are both under M458 and CTS1211 and they could have only came with the Byzantines.
 
I think it would be good to take a good look at the age estimates in Table S7. Too bad they don't do all the areas.

The J2a M67* seems to be very young in Portugal and very old in Italy and southeast Europe: 1.4 thousand years ago for the former.

The only relatively recent J2a-M92 in Italy is in Sardinia, which makes complete sense. In the rest of Italy it's also got older dates.

Going strictly by the dates, E-V13 is oldest in Turkey, then Greece and Bulgaria, then Ukraine, then Fyrom Albanian, then Bosnian Serb, then Grecia Salentina, then Calabria and regular Albanian about the same time, and then Croatia, yes? Am i interpreting this correctly? Wish they had Liguria.

Also interesting is J2b-M241:

It seems to be oldest in Apulia: 6.7. Bulgaria, Volterra and Sardinia seem to be about the same: 4.1. Perhaps metalsmiths from "Old Europe". Then Albania at 3.2. Of course, these are approximations at best.

Maybe Trojet can chime in.

Those "diversity estimates" are based on low STR resolution, which in today's age of NGS technology should not be taken seriously, as they mutate randomly and can't take into account bottlenecks, etc. It's the same methodology used by Dienekes years ago when he claimed E-V13 in Albania is coalescent of Roman/Late Antiquity times, suggesting a "recent" entrance in the Albanian gene pool, or something like that.

As Azzurro mentioned, Next Generation Sequencing is what's needed to understand these things better, and obviously ancient DNA.
 
R1a in Italy is very low in general, the high R1a in Graecia Salentina is probably founder effect and thus not really representative. The majority of Italian R1a is under CTS1211 as seen from results in ftdna, CTS1211 is also largely Slavic as well. The other 2 R1a’s found in Italians usually are under Z284 (Germanic) and Z93 (which is the least common R1a branch in Italy).

Let's not get off topic. We're talking strictly about Puglia and especially Grecia Salentina. If you think the R1a there is not important, why draw the conclusions you drew from it? The northeast, areas near Slovenia etc., are a completely different topic.

You cannot logically draw the conclusions you are drawing for these areas from this paper. There is virtually nothing from M-458 that would indicate the presence of "Slavic" y. There is no indication of Slavic I2a being much of a possibility either, which you would think would be higher than any R1a anyway.

I also don't understand why you would think Grecia Salentina is particularly isolated. It's all nice and flat. No isolated, high altitude valleys there.

Now, perhaps you're drawing your conclusions from private testing company results. I'd like to see screen shots of the results from Grecia Salentina to see all this "Slavic" dna. I'm not interested in any "private" collections.

Of course, even if it exists in those data banks, those collections can be very deceiving. For one thing, no one is checking to see all four grandparents or, in this case, that the paternal grandfather is from the area. Also, it's self selected, not a random sample. In the early days a lot of incorrect predictions were made about R1b clades in Britain because people relied on results like that.

I think at this stage, unless I'm blown away by all the "Slavic" y lines in the data from the private testing companies, I would say that there doesn't seem to be much of an indication that the R1a and I2 in Puglia and especially Grecia Salentina is from the post Slavic era Balkans, particularly in light of the thousands of years of interactions between the two areas. Why on earth single that time period out?

Of course, people can believe whatever they want to believe, for whatever reason, and often do.
 
Those "diversity estimates" are based on low STR resolution, which in today's age of NGS technology should not be taken seriously, as they mutate randomly and can't take into account bottlenecks, etc. It's the same methodology used by Dienekes years ago when he claimed E-V13 in Albania is coalescent of Roman/Late Antiquity times, suggesting a "recent" entrance in the Albanian gene pool, or something like that.

As Azzurro mentioned, Next Generation Sequencing is what's needed to understand these things better, and obviously ancient DNA.[/QUOTE]

Yes, dating is always iffy, in admixture too. When we get ancient dna we'll have to look back at this and see how close they got.

As to the rest, perhaps you missed my post:

"More, and more resolved data is always better. However, the VAST majority of R1a in Apulia and even in Grecia Salentina is certainly not M-458 (only 1.2% of it TOTAL is M-458, for which they tested), and I don't see any big amounts of "Slavic I2" there either, which there would be if it came after the Slavic invasions, since that's the majority of the "Slavic" y which is in the areas from which it would have come, so I see no logical justification for speculating that most of it is from the Slavic migrations."

Of course, ancient dna is best, then high resolution modern data. Given the history of the area, the data we do have, and no sufficiently resolved randomly selected data showing "Slavic" y dna in Puglia, why would you conclude, as Azzurro did, that most of it was from migrations after the era of the Slavic input into the Balkans, particularly from contact with Croatians in the Middle Ages and probably has nothing to do with Greeks or Illyrians? Based on what?

Perhaps it was just carelessness, but there's not justification for that. Can't go confusing newbies to the topic.



It makes no sense to me. At best, say we can't yet tell.
 

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