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Thread: More Y Dna results from Italy

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    6 members found this post helpful.

    More Y Dna results from Italy

    In this case, although the paper is behind a pay wall, the Supplementary material, which is the meat of it, is publicly available.

    See:Reconstructing the genetic history of Italians: new insights from a male (Y-chromosome) perspective

    Viola Grugni et al

    http://tandfonline.com/doi/figure/10...eedAccess=true

    "AbstractBackground: Due to its central and strategic position in Europe and in the Mediterranean Basin, the Italian Peninsula played a pivotal role in the first peopling of the European continent and has been a crossroad of peoples and cultures since then.
    Aim: This study aims to gain more information on the genetic structure of modern Italian populations and to shed light on the migration/expansion events that led to their formation.
    Subjects and methods: High resolution Y-chromosome variation analysis in 817 unrelated males from 10 informative areas of Italy was performed. Haplogroup frequencies and microsatellite haplotypes were used, together with available data from the literature, to evaluate Mediterranean and European inputs and date their arrivals.


    Results: Fifty-three distinct Y-chromosome lineages were identified. Their distribution is in general agreement with geography, southern populations being more differentiated than northern ones.

    Conclusions: A complex genetic structure reflecting the multifaceted peopling pattern of the Peninsula emerged: southern populations show high similarity with those from the Middle East and Southern Balkans, while those from Northern Italy are close to populations of North-Western Europe and the Northern Balkans. Interestingly, the population of Volterra, an ancient town of Etruscan origin in Tuscany, displays a unique Y-chromosomal genetic structure.

    This is the link to the Supplementary material, which includes a Word Document describing the areas from which the new samples were taken, and lots of tables.

    http://tandfonline.com/doi/suppl/10....801?scroll=top

    Thanks to Jovialis for help in getting it into an easier format for my computer.

    It's of particular interest to me because they include Tortona/Voghera and Val Borbera as well as both the plains and valleys of Bergamo, along with Volterra, the two sides of Calabria, northern and southern Puglia, and Sicily.


    I've been pouring over the tables for the better part of 2 hours. Table 6 is the highest resolution (although it could still be better), because it shows the newest samples. Table 7 is the dating. I'm still working on correlating the two things. The word document is important especially for those who aren't familiar with the history and pre-history of these areas.

    With regard to southern Italian and Sicilian y dna they're talking about higher levels of E and J2, although there's clearly some in the north as well.

    In terms of Volterra, without the paper I'm at a loss as to what they see as so unique in the yDna structure, other than 4% "T". If anyone can see anything else, please share.

    I'm going to organize my impressions more, and then I'll post them if they seem worthwhile.





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    1 members found this post helpful.
    agree
    on Volterra it says
    VOLTERRA
    Geography
    Volterra is a town of Tuscany - Central Italy - in the province of Pisa. It is located on a rocky hill, between the Bra and Cecina rivers. Along with the districts of Castelnuovo Val di Cecina, Montecatini Val di Cecina and Pomarance, it is part of the Upper Cecina Valley. This region is surrounded by other neighbouring valleys: on the West there are the Lower Cecina and the Cornia Valleys; on the North the Era Valley, and on the East the Upper Elsa Valley. On the South it confines with the Colline Metallifere, a mountain-hill group in the Tuscan Anti-Apennine.
    In the surroundings of Volterra, the forests of Berignone-Tatti and Monterufoli are some of the wooded areas that form the landscape, often characterized by the Mediterranean shrub land, the dramatic landslides of the Balze area and rolling hills.
    Historical background
    The hill on which Volterra is located was already settled from the Iron Age onwards, as the Villanovan necropolis shows. During the Neolithic, Volterra was an important settlement of the Etruscans; part of the principal twelve cities of the Etruscans confederation. Volterra was more isolated than the other Etruscan cities, due to its geographical position, and it was one of the last cities to join the Roman Republic, in the III century B.C..
    The origin of Etruscans is still controversial and different hypotheses have been made: one sustains they came from Anatolia, another claims an autochthonous process of formation from the preceding Villanovan society. Lastly, influence from Northern Europe has also been hypothesized.

    I was interested in Vicenza with its 5% of T .............only because of a paternal line of mine, Matteo married Teresa Greslin in Schio ~1670 ..............Vicenza had a mix of trevisani and trentini merging there

    Only the T-M70 from this paper
    Picene , if ancient are Histri/Liburnian Illyrians
    L`Aquila with its 20% ( some found to be haplogroup LT ) would mostly likey be Samnites , speaking Sabellic , if so, can be also some South-Picene language which is also Sabellic
    .
    La Spezia to Massa in just north of ancient Volterra
    Last edited by Sile; 04-02-18 at 19:16.
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    In terms of Volterra, without the paper I'm at a loss as to what they see as so unique in the yDna structure, other than 4% "T". If anyone can see anything else, please share.
    Volterra is also special for having 1% of haplogroup F* (possibly H) and 1% of K* (possibly L), both of which are exceedingly rare. But as they sample size is only 113, these are just single individuals. They might not be representative. Volterra also has a relatively high percentage of G2a (13.3%), closer to southern Italy than to the Tuscan average.
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    thanks angela for sharing :)
    there was also m123* without the e-m34 mutation in volterra 1.8%
    up until now those rare cases where found in north portugal .....
    but to find it in volterra an etruscan area.... surprising.
    and e-m35*{m78,m81,m123} was found in 3.5% in ligurian valley
    for me personally it is nice to see e-m34 in 6% in apuglia {samples from southern area but not the grico minority}
    and e-v13 is one of common y haplogroups along with j2,g2, r1b-s116,r1b-u152
    with kind regards
    adam

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Besides T, an appreciable % of G-L497 in Volterra, perhaps comparable to the % in Trentino, Austrian Tyrol...

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    ^^Yes, I was about to say that most of the G in Volterra is G-L497. The total G there is 13.3%, and G-L497 is 7.1%. Total "G" is higher in the Val Borbera where the total G is 15.3%, and G-L497 is 12.9%.

    Central Italy is pretty high, with a total of 13.3%.

    The "G" in the south is actually a bit lower, and is largely of a different type:

    Tyrhennian Calabria: 12.3%
    Apulia 11.8
    Sicily 10.9
    S.Italy 8.5
    Ionian Calabria 5.3%

    So, I think to look at total "G" numbers is a little misleading; you have to look at the sub-clades. Plus, as I said, much of southern Italy actually has lower numbers than Central Italy, probably because the G-L497 wave didn't have as much impact there. You had some coming up the peninsula, some down, and where they met in Central Italy, you have some of the highest numbers.

    Makes you wonder who brought that G-L497.

    I also think it's important not to make too much of any of the results from the Val Borbera. This area is even more remote than my father's villages in the Val Cedra. In his area the roads went in during the 1920s or so. The Val Borbera didn't have good roads until a couple of years ago. The authors make a point of emphasizing that they do genetic studies there because of the inbreeding. So, y lines are going to drift to prominence randomly.

    I think that also explains the three E-M35* samples found there. Btw, Kingjohn, there's no E-M81 there. That shows up in southern Italy. In addition to those E-M35* samples, there's 1 E-M78 and 1 E-V13. The last two would, I think, probably have drifted up from the coast, which had its own small Greek emporia, and which was also close to the Greek colony in Massalia.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Some interesting graphics from the paper on yDna frequency and variance for some of these y clades Europe wide. The column to the left is frequency, the column to the right is variance.
    Attachment 9713

    Attachment 9714

    Attachment 9715

    I would speculate that the R1b S116 correlates with the ties between southern France and northwestern Italy, which is the only place it appears in these percentages. (You can see it in the figures for the Val Borbera especially, but also in Tortona and Bergamo.)

    Might that explain the consistent "Iberian" percentages we get in autosomal calculators?

    G-L497 definitely looks like it's coming from the north, but with whom?

    As to J2, there doesn't seem to be one particular clade that is prominent in Toscana does there according to this graphic? It looks like it has a bit of a few of them, including J2b.

    Surprised at the amount of J2a-M67* in Portugal and northwestern Spain. It looks as if it went from the southern Balkans, hit far southern Italy, and then went through the Straits of Gibralter to western Iberia.

    E-V13s highest variance is Turkey/Anatolia. Perhaps a spread from there to the Balkans, and up into Central Europe, and also on to Italy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Some interesting graphics from the paper on yDna frequency and variance for some of these y clades Europe wide. The column to the left is frequency, the column to the right is variance.
    Attachment 9713
    Attachment 9714
    Attachment 9715
    I would speculate that the R1b S116 correlates with the ties between southern France and northwestern Italy, which is the only place it appears in these percentages. (You can see it in the figures for the Val Borbera especially, but also in Tortona and Bergamo.)
    Might that explain the consistent "Iberian" percentages we get in autosomal calculators?
    G-L497 definitely looks like it's coming from the north, but with whom?
    As to J2, there doesn't seem to be one particular clade that is prominent in Toscana does there according to this graphic? It looks like it has a bit of a few of them, including J2b.
    Surprised at the amount of J2a-M67* in Portugal and northwestern Spain. It looks as if it went from the southern Balkans, hit far southern Italy, and then went through the Straits of Gibralter to western Iberia.
    E-V13s highest variance is Turkey/Anatolia. Perhaps a spread from there to the Balkans, and up into Central Europe, and also on to Italy?
    G-L497 is from Berger 2013 Austrian paper, where the austrians have about 80% of this SNP of their total G haplogroup..........it is also linked to Northern Romania. It was noted in that paper that its origins is tyrolese............

    http://www.blutspendezuerich.ch/Medi...20G%282%29.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Besides T, an appreciable % of G-L497 in Volterra, perhaps comparable to the % in Trentino, Austrian Tyrol...
    Looks like a lot of tyrolese moved to Tuscany , Lombardy and Veneto ................the question is , were they germans at that point in time or did they flee germans or the earlier celts who entered the alps from central/south Germany

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    More Y Dna results from Italy

    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Looks like a lot of tyrolese moved to Tuscany , Lombardy and Veneto ................the question is , were they germans at that point in time or did they flee germans or the earlier celts who entered the alps from central/south Germany
    I’ve been wandering why the Y T is not as popular as others modern haplogroups.
    We are the minority everywhere, regardless of the Subclades, We are few, but widespread.
    Something Really Bad probably happened at some point to the Primary T Tribe. Unlesss our Ancestors were ugly and Women didn’t find them Attractive, lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ^^Yes, I was about to say that most of the G in Volterra is G-L497. The total G there is 13.3%, and G-L497 is 7.1%. Total "G" is higher in the Val Borbera where the total G is 15.3%, and G-L497 is 12.9%.

    Central Italy is pretty high, with a total of 13.3%.

    The "G" in the south is actually a bit lower, and is largely of a different type:

    Tyrhennian Calabria: 12.3%
    Apulia 11.8
    Sicily 10.9
    S.Italy 8.5
    Ionian Calabria 5.3%

    So, I think to look at total "G" numbers is a little misleading; you have to look at the sub-clades. Plus, as I said, much of southern Italy actually has lower numbers than Central Italy, probably because the G-L497 wave didn't have as much impact there. You had some coming up the peninsula, some down, and where they met in Central Italy, you have some of the highest numbers.

    Makes you wonder who brought that G-L497.

    I also think it's important not to make too much of any of the results from the Val Borbera. This area is even more remote than my father's villages in the Val Cedra. In his area the roads went in during the 1920s or so. The Val Borbera didn't have good roads until a couple of years ago. The authors make a point of emphasizing that they do genetic studies there because of the inbreeding. So, y lines are going to drift to prominence randomly.

    I think that also explains the three E-M35* samples found there. Btw, Kingjohn, there's no E-M81 there. That shows up in southern Italy. In addition to those E-M35* samples, there's 1 E-M78 and 1 E-V13. The last two would, I think, probably have drifted up from the coast, which had its own small Greek emporia, and which was also close to the Greek colony in Massalia.
    yes but it was found in 6% in sicily in this study
    wish i knew from where in sicily the samples were taken :)
    kind regards
    adam

    p.s
    you have a point on the val borbera though....
    although i do believe that some e-m35* could have been present among the ligurians

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    I’ve been wandering why the Y T is not as popular as others modern haplogroups.
    We are the minority everywhere, regardless of the Subclades, We are few, but widespread.
    Something Really Bad probably happened at some point to the Primary T Tribe. Unlesss our Ancestors were ugly and Women didn’t find them Attractive, lol
    T is still widespread
    C1a2 and H2 became very rare

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Some interesting graphics from the paper on yDna frequency and variance for some of these y clades Europe wide. The column to the left is frequency, the column to the right is variance.
    The attachments are not opening up. If you go to https://imgur.com/ and click "new post" you can then just drag and drop all the files you wish to create
    a URL for and then attach them onto Eupedia with a url the way you usually attach photos of people from the web.
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    3 members found this post helpful.
    @Sile
    It seems the frequency of G-L497 in Austrian Tyrol is relatively high, similar to the observed in SW Germany, Swiss, Trentino and perhaps even TV province etc. (subclade G-L42 probably being more common in these areas) and parts of Central Italy (like Foligno, with abt. 16%, based on Boattini's study and DYS388=13), however, I'm not sure about its diversity. In the paper discussed here there's a map showing the highest diversity around Central Germany, and that's surprised me, since I would have guessed it was around SW Germany, Swiss... Possibly this is true just to its most common subclade Z1823 (the best G-L497 phylogenetic trees are in the related project in FTDNA), which is pretty widespread.
    Btw, the Tryppilian Outlier (in Ukraine) from a recent study was identified as G-L42, but I'm not sure it's reliable, since it's not in the latest versions of the paper.
    Anyway, G-L497 is an old Neolithic haplogroup, and its subclades must have different stories, naturally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    G-L497 definitely looks like it's coming from the north, but with whom?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Looks like a lot of tyrolese moved to Tuscany , Lombardy and Veneto ................the question is , were they germans at that point in time or did they flee germans or the earlier celts who entered the alps from central/south Germany
    I wonder too. My speculations: maybe Celts/Italics, since its distribution resembles a bit the U152's. Indeed, a skeleton from Mitterkirchen related to the Celts was identified as G-L140, and according to me the guy was probably G-L497 based on his STR markers. But Germanic tribes could have brought some lineages more recently, like, say, G-CTS4803, G-Z16775...
    Some subclades (even main - more common - subclades) could be related to the Etruscan/Rhaetians too. Who knows! Hope we figure it out. :)

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    The attachments are not opening up. If you go to https://imgur.com/ and click "new post" you can then just drag and drop all the files you wish to create
    a URL for and then attach them onto Eupedia with a url the way you usually attach photos of people from the web.
    Thanks, Johane. I'm just going to do it here.

    Some interesting graphics from the paper on yDna frequency and variance for some of these y clades Europe wide. The column to the left is frequency, the column to the right is variance.
    [IMG][/IMG]





    I would speculate that the R1b S116 correlates with the ties between southern France and northwestern Italy, which is the only place it appears in these percentages. (You can see it in the figures for the Val Borbera especially, but also in Tortona and Bergamo.)

    Might that explain the consistent "Iberian" percentages we get in autosomal calculators?

    Interesting also that the highest variance is in southern France over toward the Spanish border, but that Spain has extremely low variance.

    G-L497 definitely looks like it's coming from the north, but with whom?

    [IMG][/IMG]

    As to J2, there doesn't seem to be one particular clade that is prominent in Toscana does there according to this graphic? It looks like it has a bit of a few of them, including J2b.

    Surprised at the amount of J2a-M67* in Portugal and northwestern Spain. It looks as if it went from the southern Balkans, hit far southern Italy, and then went through the Straits of Gibralter to western Iberia.

    E-V13s highest variance is Turkey/Anatolia. Perhaps a spread from there to the Balkans, and up into Central Europe, and also on to Italy?

    This is the network for U-152.
    [IMG][/IMG]

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Btw, the Tryppilian Outlier (in Ukraine) from a recent study was identified as G-L42, but I'm not sure it's reliable, since it's not in the latest versions of the paper.
    Good that someone finally writte about it here. It's definitely that G-L42 from first version of that study is ''fake'', considering that is the only sample which is deleted in latest version. From the first version it was be clear that there is something strange with that sample, considering that L42 TMRCA and forming date doesn't coincides with that L42 dating.

    Anyway, G-L497 is an old Neolithic haplogroup, and its subclades must have different stories, naturally.
    Exactly.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    A few notes about comparing the Val Borbera and Tortona, barely fifty minutes apart by car, and which are both part of the province of Alessandria, Piemonte (although the Val Borbera was part of Liguria until very, very recently):
    [IMG][/IMG]

    I wanted to see if, in addition to the founder effects and drift in Val Borbera, some different migration patterns might be the cause of the differences in frequencies, such as they are.

    I say such as they are, because the U-152 is much the same (35 vs. 30), the total R1b is much the same (56 to 63), and many of the other clade frequencies are pretty close.

    There are a few differences. One is that Val Borbera has more S116 than Tortona, 12.8% versus 8.3%, yet it is Tortona which has the documented Celtic settlements. Val Borbera was first settled by Ligures in the Iron Age, but Tortona was first settled in the Neolithic, and there is then a record of Ligures, Iberian, Celtic, and Roman presence. ( This is the first I've heard of an "Iberian" presence. I'm going to have to investigate that.) Is that just drift in operation again?

    In terms of Tortona vs Val Borbera, one of the biggest differences, I think, is that Tortona has 20% J2 (2 clades) to only 8% for Val Borbera. Might that be because Tortona/Vorghera was the site of a very large Roman settlement, at the junction of two very important roads?

    I was also interested to see if there were traces of the Langobard presence in Val Borbera, given the plethora of Langobard castles there. Oddly, it is Tortona, not Val Borbera, which has 4% R1b U-106, and some few percent of "I" more than Val Borbera. So, I don't know what to make of that.

    Tortona also has 8% R1a M17*; there is no 458 which is the only specific clade for which they tested. I don't know what to make of that either. Could it be something carried by the Langobards, and again, it's not that this wasn't present in Val Borbera, but it drifted out?

    Here is the chart from the Supp:

    [IMG][/IMG]

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    Interesting that the Greeks brought to apulia 16% of R1a-M17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    In terms of Volterra, without the paper I'm at a loss as to what they see as so unique in the yDna structure, other than 4% "T". If anyone can see anything else, please share.
    I really don't understand why they are saying that Volterra displays a unique Y-chromosomal genetic structure. It's not really true.

    Volterra is 49,6%
    R1b-M269 (U152, S116, U106), 13,3% G-M201, 13,3% J2-M172, 7,1% E1b-M78 (E-V13), 4,4% I-M170 (xM26), 4,4% T-M70, 2,7% I2-M26... There are differences with the rest of Tuscany, but this could be due to internal sub-regional differences or to just random variation. Also the size of the sample could play a role.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post




    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    I wonder too. My speculations: maybe Celts/Italics, since its distribution resembles a bit the U152's. Indeed, a skeleton from Mitterkirchen related to the Celts was identified as G-L140, and according to me the guy was probably G-L497 based on his STR markers. But Germanic tribes could have brought some lineages more recently, like, say, G-CTS4803, G-Z16775...Some subclades (even main - more common - subclades) could be related to the Etruscan/Rhaetians too. Who knows! Hope we figure it out. :)
    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Besides T, an appreciable % of G-L497 in Volterra, perhaps comparable to the % in Trentino, Austrian Tyrol...

    It could be indeed an old Etruscan-Rhaetian link, dating back to a Neolithic/Late Neolithic/Early Chalcolithic.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Looks like a lot of tyrolese moved to Tuscany , Lombardy and Veneto ................the question is , were they germans at that point in time or did they flee germans or the earlier celts who entered the alps from central/south Germany

    Volterra has also 7,1% of R1b-U106, 2,7% of I-M233, 1,8% of I-M253... a Germanic influence seems to really exist there. Even some of G and T could have arrived with a Germanic movement. The Longobards?


    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    A few notes about comparing the Val Borbera and Tortona, barely fifty minutes apart by car, and which are both part of the province of Alessandria, Piemonte (although the Val Borbera was part of Liguria until very, very recently):

    I think the majority of the inhabitants of the Borbera Valley still speak today a dialect of the Ligurian and not Piedmontese type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    I really don't understand why they are saying that Volterra displays a unique Y-chromosomal genetic structure. It's not really true.
    Volterra is 49,6%
    R1b-M269 (U152, S116, U106), 13,3% G-M201, 13,3% J2-M172, 7,1% E1b-M78 (E-V13), 4,4% I-M170 (xM26), 4,4% T-M70, 2,7% I2-M26... There are differences with the rest of Tuscany, but this could be due to internal sub-regional differences or to just random variation. Also the size of the sample could play a role.

    It could be indeed an old Etruscan-Rhaetian link, dating back to a Neolithic/Late Neolithic/Early Chalcolithic.
    Volterra has also 7,1% of R1b-U106, 2,7% of I-M233, 1,8% of I-M253... a Germanic influence seems to really exist there. Even some of G and T could have arrived with a Germanic movement. The Longobards?
    I think the majority of the inhabitants of the Borbera Valley still speak today a dialect of the Ligurian and not Piedmontese type.
    Maciano thinks that H and L ( ydna ) could also be in Volterra
    Btw, was the area between Parma and the adriatic , along the Po river still underwater then which would mean the north ( alps ) to south route was determined by nature

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Maciano thinks that H and L ( ydna ) could also be in Volterra
    Based on F-M89* and K-M9 (xM173,M70).

    Anyway F-M89* according to Boattini 2013 is 3,9% and 3,3% in north Italy, respectively in Liguria (Savona/Genoa) and Piedmont (Cuneo), higher than Volterra (0,9%).

    And according to this study, K-M9 is 1,3% in north Italy, in Lombardy, in both Bergamo plain and valleys, higher than Volterra (0,9%).

    Is F-M89* H? And K-M9 (xM173,M70) is L?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Volterra is also special for having 1% of haplogroup F* (possibly H) and 1% of K* (possibly L), both of which are exceedingly rare.
    Well, according to this study K-M9 is 1,3% in north Italy, in Lombardy, in both Bergamo plain and valleys. And according to Boattini 2013 F-M89* is 3,9% and 3,3% in north Italy, in Liguria (Savona/Genoa) and Piedmont (Cuneo), higher than Volterra (0,9%). I mean, Volterra isn't that special in this either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    I really don't understand why they are saying that Volterra displays a unique Y-chromosomal genetic structure. It's not really true.

    Volterra is 49,6%
    R1b-M269 (U152, S116, U106), 13,3% G-M201, 13,3% J2-M172, 7,1% E1b-M78 (E-V13), 4,4% I-M170 (xM26), 4,4% T-M70, 2,7% I2-M26... There are differences with the rest of Tuscany, but this could be due to internal sub-regional differences or to just random variation. Also the size of the sample could play a role.












    It could be indeed an old Etruscan-Rhaetian link, dating back to a Neolithic/Late Neolithic/Early Chalcolithic.





    Volterra has also 7,1% of R1b-U106, 2,7% of I-M233, 1,8% of I-M253... a Germanic influence seems to really exist there. Even some of G and T could have arrived with a Germanic movement. The Longobards?





    I think the majority of the inhabitants of the Borbera Valley still speak today a dialect of the Ligurian and not Piedmontese type.
    That's what I was wondering too about all of those haplogroups up in the area of the Piemonte, Liguria, Lombardia, Emilia border, the "Quattro Province" area.

    The authors of the paper mention the Langobards up there in the Val Borbera, but their castles are in the whole area, and also all over the Lunigiana and down into Toscana too. Some of the old calculators consistently give Tuscans about a third "Germanic" type ancestry. These "Germanic" y lines, which would have been minority lines, just might not have totally drifted out of the pool of y haplogroups in these more remote areas.

    Did you see where the area of greatest variation is for G2a-L497? It's not in the Alps, it's just below Denmark. Although originally a Neolithic line, it might have gotten picked up by Indo-European groups and then spread into both Celtic speaking and Germanic speaking peoples.

    Yes, they speak Ligurian dialects up there, largely because the villages were feudatories of families from Genova.

    "in provincia di Alessandria, l'Oltregiogo storico a sud di Ovada e Novi Ligure include i centri di Gavi, Arquata Scrivia e Serravalle Scrivia, la val Lemme e la val Borbera, che fecero parte della Repubblica di Genova o furono amministrati come feudi da famiglie genovesi"
    https://www.visitriviera.info/tradiz...lingua-ligure/

    "The Val Borbera (val Borbëa or Borbéia" in Ligurian, val Borbaja in Piedmontese) is a valley formed by the River Borbera, a tributary of the Scrivia, located in the province of Alessandria. It was historically linked to the Republic of Genoa, the Ligurian Republic and is still strongly tied to Liguria.[1]:

    "
    It is surrounded by high mountains, making it a place isolated from the surrounding valleys, little touched by industrialization and with a well-preserved environment. Up until the beginning of the 20th century, there was no road connecting the upper with the lower valley, the main passageway being the gravel riverbed in the dry season. It is the only valley of Piedmont bordering on the Emilia-Romagna region.""Its population has been considered a genetic isolate.[3]"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Val_Borbera

    Actually, the paper that is the subject of the OP says the road wasn't paved until a couple of decades ago.

    The sample that is used in some modern population genetics studies (and labelled Piemonte, which is a bit inaccurate, although the political borders are a bit irrelevant), comes from a study done there precisely because it is a genetic isolate.

    "In this paper we report a demographic and epidemiological analysis of a genetically isolated population, settled in Val Borbera, a large valley in the North West Apennines, in Italy. Around 60% of the modern descendants, still living in the 7 main villages of the valley or in the nearby areas, have been recruited based on their ancestry. Analysis of the large genealogy constructed starting from city and parish archives showed not only that endogamy was high in the past, but also that >90% of the participants to the study had 4 grandparents born in the valley and that 87% were connected in a unique large genealogical tree that included up to 16 generations tracing back to the 16th century."
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2761731/

    I think the best way to think of them is probably as a very drifted segment of the population of the "Quattro Province".

    Interesting article in Italian:
    https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quattro_Province

    This is the English version:
    https://translate.google.it/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quattro_Province&prev=search

    "From a linguistic point of view it is difficult to give an exact classification of the Gallo-Italic linguistic varieties still spoken today, together with Italian , in the area of ​​the Four Provinces [6] . In the territory in question, dialects of the Ligurian language and transitional dialects between Ligurian, Emilian and Piedmontese intersect.On the other hand, among the provinces in question, it is only Genoa that is at the center of the linguistic system of its administrative region of belonging. Theprovince of Piacenza is characterized by Emilian varieties in contact with Lombardy , which, however, going back up the Apennine valleys are gradually affected by Ligurian characters. The Emilian dialect then extends to the Oltrepò Pavese , where the continuity with the Piacenza area gives way to Piedmontese influences as one approaches the border with the province of Alessandria , whose easternmost portion - the Tortonese - is still interested from the dialectal continuum of Emilia [7] [8] to the river Scrivia [9] . In the Alessandria area, going westwards there are gradual changes that gradually lead to a rapprochement with the Piedmontese, while to the south we approach the Ligurian [9] , similarly to what happens in the province of Pavia and in the Piacenza area."

    "There are many evidences of the presence of the Ligurians since the Stone Age ( Neolithic village in Travo , val Trebbia piacentina ) and in the Iron Age (castelliere , fortified village, of Guardamonte in the Alessandrino ). [ citation needed ] [3]Also well documented the presence of the Romans : many toponyms, archaeological finds (remains of the city of Libarna in Val Scrivia ) and historical documentation ( Tabula alimentaria Traiana of the municipality of Velleia of the second century AD ). According to the historian Polybius , in December 218 BC ,Hannibal inflicted a heavy defeat on the Roman consul Tito Sempronio Longo in the battle of Trebbia . Some toponyms of Val Trebbia and Val Boreca , as Zerbaseems to trace traces from the passage of Hannibal's troops.
    From the fourth century , under the increasing pressure of the barbaric peoples, there was a migration from the Ligurian coast and from the plain towards the mountainous areas. Thus new settlements were formed based on an agro-pastoral subsistence economy.
    The history of the territory is strongly linked to the presence of the monastery of Bobbio (PC), historical and cultural center of primary importance and richmonastic fief with possessions throughout northern Italy, founded in the seventh century by the Irish monk San Colombano , also in function of point of control of traffic to and from the Ligurian Sea , especially for the control of salt traffic towards the salt route .
    After the fall of the Lombards by Charlemagne , the Holy Roman Empire later reassigned the territory constituting first the Marca Obertenga and then the imperial feuds , with the aim of maintaining a safe passage to the sea, in addition to the bishopric of Bobbio, assigned these territories starting from 1164 , to families (first descendants of the ancient Obertenghi ) such as: the Malaspina , the Fieschi , the Doria , the Pallavicino , the Landi and the Farnese ) who dominated these feuds for centuries."


    I've posted a lot of their music and dancing.



    This is specifically from one of the villages tested. If one thing stands out to me about their appearance, it's their height and the fact they're very lean. Height was, according to the genetics paper, one of the extremely heritable traits they possessed.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1miA5VJztI

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Based on F-M89* and K-M9 (xM173,M70).
    Anyway F-M89* according to Boattini 2013 is 3,9% and 3,3% in north Italy, respectively in Liguria (Savona/Genoa) and Piedmont (Cuneo), higher than Volterra (0,9%).
    And according to this study, K-M9 is 1,3% in north Italy, in Lombardy, in both Bergamo plain and valleys, higher than Volterra (0,9%).
    Is F-M89* H? And K-M9 (xM173,M70) is L?
    Well, according to this study K-M9 is 1,3% in north Italy, in Lombardy, in both Bergamo plain and valleys. And according to Boattini 2013 F-M89* is 3,9% and 3,3% in north Italy, in Liguria (Savona/Genoa) and Piedmont (Cuneo), higher than Volterra (0,9%). I mean, Volterra isn't that special in this either.
    K-M9 is only valid if it retained its "purity", ie not mutated into another haplogroup ................I am positive for K-M9
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_K-M9
    .
    All the haplogroups in the spreadsheet from K-M9 to T inclusive............all have positive K-M9
    .
    tyrol/austria/south Germany has a higher % of K-M9
    .
    I am sticking with its origins........... being south of the caspian sea

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela
    ^^Yes, I was about to say that most of the G in Volterra is G-L497. The total G there is 13.3%, and G-L497 is 7.1%. Total "G" is higher in the Val Borbera where the total G is 15.3%, and G-L497 is 12.9%.

    Central Italy is pretty high, with a total of 13.3%.

    The "G" in the south is actually a bit lower, and is largely of a different type:

    Tyrhennian Calabria: 12.3%
    Apulia 11.8
    Sicily 10.9
    S.Italy 8.5
    Ionian Calabria 5.3%

    So, I think to look at total "G" numbers is a little misleading; you have to look at the sub-clades. Plus, as I said, much of southern Italy actually has lower numbers than Central Italy, probably because the G-L497 wave didn't have as much impact there. You had some coming up the peninsula, some down, and where they met in Central Italy, you have some of the highest numbers.

    Makes you wonder who brought that G-L497.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    G-L497 definitely looks like it's coming from the north, but with whom?

    As to J2, there doesn't seem to be one particular clade that is prominent in Toscana does there according to this graphic? It looks like it has a bit of a few of them, including J2b.
    I didn't notice in the frequency table that the G2a in Volterra was mostly L497. That actually solves the problem. I have maintained at least since 2013 in my Genetic History of the Italians (specifically here) that G2a-L497 was the second main Hallstatt lineage after R1b-U152, and by extension also that of the Italic tribes and La Tène (Gaulish/Belgic) tribes. The correlation between G2a-L497 and R1b-U152 is very strong.






    I have explained in detail in the G2a page that it is particularly the G2a-Z1816 branch of L497 that seems to have spread with R1b from Yamna until the Alps. The oldest Z1816 was found in a Trypillian outlier just before the Yamna expansion.

    I explained in the Genetic History of the Italians that the four main haplogroups of the ancient Italic tribes, including the Romans, were R1b-U152 (esp. the Z56 and Z192 branches), G2a-L497 (Z1816, although specific deep clades remain to be identified) and J2a-L70.

    J2b is more likely of Greek or Balkanic origin. I have associated J2b2-L283 with the Illyrians and Mycenaean Greeks, while J2b1 is more widely West Asian, Greek and West Balkanic.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    yes but it was found in 6% in sicily in this study
    wish i knew from where in sicily the samples were taken :)
    kind regards
    adam

    p.s
    you have a point on the val borbera though....
    although i do believe that some e-m35* could have been present among the ligurians
    Because of small number of samples. In Heraklides et al. there were 765 samples from Sicily and E-M81 was only 1.6%.

    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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