Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 39

Thread: R1b-S28/u152 in Sicily? A product of Romans, Lombards or Normans?

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    04-02-18
    Posts
    13


    Country: United States



    R1b-S28/u152 in Sicily? A product of Romans, Lombards or Normans?

    Hi everyone, I just recently had a DNA test done by Nat Geo (2.0), and my haplogroup was as it says in the title. R1b-u152.

    My paternal lineage is undoubtedly Sicilian, they come from a Western portion of the Island in a village nearby Palermo, yet this haplogroup is especially rare for most Sicilian men. Can someone shed light on this haplogroup and it's importance in the region and more importantly how it likely came to be?

    A friend of mine had suggested that R1b u152 in Sicily is largely due to Norman influence i.e. Many Danes living in the Danelaw in England, and in Normandy both tested positive for this haplogroup. Given the Norman conquest of the island, it would only make sense. But I also hear R1b u152 is highly correlated with Roman ancestry as well?

    Can someone better explain this to me? And can you provide me with any tools so that I could better match my DYS findings and haplogroup with other test takers to further discover my family lineage? For what it's worth, my family surname seems to be a foundling/illegitimate name from my research.

    Thanks.

  2. #2
    Elite member Hauteville's Avatar
    Join Date
    28-11-14
    Posts
    820

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-S185
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    Siculi and Elimi were Italic-speaking peoples and similar of Latins.

    yet this haplogroup is especially rare for most Sicilian men
    Not that rare.

    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

  3. #3
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    9,497


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    3 members found this post helpful.
    It will ultimately depend on the subclade. Most Z56 and Z192 is probably of Roman (or more broadly Italic) origin. But it's also possible that some people from Lombardy and Normandy who were of Roman descent may have hitched a ride with the Germanic invaders until Sicily.

    Very few Scandinavians and North Germans belong to U152, but some do, so some U152 in Italy might be or Germanic origin too (a tiny minority though, probably less than 1% of all U152). The vast majority (>95%) of Scandinavian U152 fall under the L2 clade. The most common L2 subclades in Scandinavia appear to be Z41150 (especially S8183 and Z142), followed by Z258 (Z34 and L20). But these are found all over Northeast Europe, so they aren't specifically Scandinavian.

    The reason for the elevated percentage of U152 in northern Sicily might be the number of native French people who came during the Norman occupation. The majority of Normans would have been of French/Gaulo-Roman descent rather than of Scandinavian descent.
    My book selection---Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    04-02-18
    Posts
    13


    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It will ultimately depend on the subclade. Most Z56 and Z192 is probably of Roman (or more broadly Italic) origin. But it's also possible that some people from Lombardy and Normandy who were of Roman descent may have hitched a ride with the Germanic invaders until Sicily.

    Very few Scandinavians and North Germans belong to U152, but some do, so some U152 in Italy might be or Germanic origin too (a tiny minority though, probably less than 1% of all U152). The vast majority (>95%) of Scandinavian U152 fall under the L2 clade. The most common L2 subclades in Scandinavia appear to be Z41150 (especially S8183 and Z142), followed by Z258 (Z34 and L20). But these are found all over Northeast Europe, so they aren't specifically Scandinavian.

    The reason for the elevated percentage of U152 in northern Sicily might be the number of native French people who came during the Norman occupation. The majority of Normans would have been of French/Gaulo-Roman descent rather than of Scandinavian descent.
    What DYS markers would indicate Italic, vs Gallic vs Scandinavian ancestry? How can I further determine my subclade, which DNA test can do this?

    And to be clear, yes, my family's ancestry is most certainly in the North of Sicily (north west to be more specific).

    And what is your most likely guess, would it make the most sense that somewhere along the line I had a Gallic ancestor who came as a result of the Norman invasions?

    If so, what percentage of these men were soldiers and where can I read up on the Normans inciting Frankish and Gallo-Roman Normans to take up their cause?

    Thank you.

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    04-02-18
    Posts
    13


    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    Siculi and Elimi were Italic-speaking peoples and similar of Latins.
    Not that rare.
    I thought the Elymi and Siculi shared haplogroups with other near eastern peoples like the Phoenicians?
    And what haplogroups are most common among Gallo-Romans in Sicily? Can you better explain R1b-u152 to me in that sense? Thanks.

  6. #6
    Elite member Hauteville's Avatar
    Join Date
    28-11-14
    Posts
    820

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-S185
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by wesgarde View Post
    I thought the Elymi and Siculi shared haplogroups with other near eastern peoples like the Phoenicians?
    Siculi and Elimi were Italic-speaking populations not near eastern semites.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    04-02-18
    Posts
    13


    Country: United States



    Ok, well what DYS 'markers' (sorry I'm new to all of this) would indicate Sicilian and Elymian ancestry as opposed to Gallo-Roman?

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    04-02-18
    Posts
    13


    Country: United States



    Additionally what percentage of the invading Norman 'armies' were of largely Gallo-Roman ancestry as opposed to Danish/Norse ancestry? Any figures/articles/books would be appreciated.

  9. #9
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,236


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Where does this stuff come from?

    There's this thing called Google.

    https://www.britannica.com/topic/Siculi

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicels

    I would recommend it over the musings of people on certain internet sites.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elymians

    I would suggest you read Maciamo's analysis in the Genetics part of the site.

    As to specific markers we have absolutely no ancient dna from Sicily to give us concrete answers.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  10. #10
    Elite member Hauteville's Avatar
    Join Date
    28-11-14
    Posts
    820

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-S185
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    1 members found this post helpful.

  11. #11
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,236


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    That's a good link for the Elymian language. I hadn't seen it before, thanks.

  12. #12
    Elite member Hauteville's Avatar
    Join Date
    28-11-14
    Posts
    820

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-S185
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    1 members found this post helpful.
    It's the most recent about its language. It looks different from Sicel language but with Italic characteristics more than Aegean.

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    04-02-18
    Posts
    13


    Country: United States



    Hi, I'm sorry Angela, but what are you conveying?

    That R1b u152 in Sicily is most likely Italic - more specifically Elymian or Sicel in origin? Why not Gallo-Roman given the repopulation of the island during the Norman period?

    And where can I read this DNA analysis by Maciamo. I'm new to the site, my apologies.

  14. #14
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,236


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by wesgarde View Post
    Hi, I'm sorry Angela, but what are you conveying?

    That R1b u152 in Sicily is most likely Italic - more specifically Elymian or Sicel in origin? Why not Gallo-Roman given the repopulation of the island during the Norman period?

    And where can I read this DNA analysis by Maciamo. I'm new to the site, my apologies.
    Indeed, some of it may be "Lombard", which just means generally Northwestern Italy. Most of the settlers came from the Kingdom of Lombardia, but Piedmont and Liguria were then part of that Kingdom, and it's from those areas that many of the settlers came. Some of it may be earlier, with the Siculi and perhaps the Elymians, and some of it may be Roman, but there wasn't very much actual Roman settlement in Sicily. It was already very populated.







    Until we get some ancient yDna from Sicily which is highly resolved as to subclade level there's no way of knowing definitively what came when, although certain people are very good at intelligent speculation. I wouldn't bet on getting specifically Siculi remains for testing for example, though, given how densely populated Sicily has been since the Neolithic and how layer covers layer, and also the fact that it's very warm there.

    Maciamo's work is in the genetics section. When you type in eupedia.com, instead of going to forum go to genetics section. There's a lot of information there, including an article on Italian genetics, lists of y haplogroups by area etc.

    Also use our search engine on the forum. It's good, and will lead you to a lot of good threads.

    Just try to absorb what you can, and continue reading posts and threads here. It'll clarify things.

    Also, in terms of the general advances in population genetics, I started a thread with all of the recent good papers for newbies to read.

    See:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ation-Genetics

    Oh, and welcome. Glad to have you. :)

  15. #15
    Regular Member Cato's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-08-12
    Posts
    449


    Country: Italy



    It could be Bell Beaker. The fist R1b U152 documented is a Beaker man from Bavaria IIRC and this culture was quite widespread in W. Sicily

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...mpaniforme.jpg

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    04-02-18
    Posts
    13


    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Indeed, some of it may be "Lombard", which just means generally Northwestern Italy. Most of the settlers came from the Kingdom of Lombardia, but Piedmont and Liguria were then part of that Kingdom, and it's from those areas that many of the settlers came. Some of it may be earlier, with the Siculi and perhaps the Elymians, and some of it may be Roman, but there wasn't very much actual Roman settlement in Sicily. It was already very populated.

    Until we get some ancient yDna from Sicily which is highly resolved as to subclade level there's no way of knowing definitively what came when, although certain people are very good at intelligent speculation. I wouldn't bet on getting specifically Siculi remains for testing for example, though, given how densely populated Sicily has been since the Neolithic and how layer covers layer, and also the fact that it's very warm there.

    Maciamo's work is in the genetics section. When you type in eupedia.com, instead of going to forum go to genetics section. There's a lot of information there, including an article on Italian genetics, lists of y haplogroups by area etc.

    Also use our search engine on the forum. It's good, and will lead you to a lot of good threads.

    Just try to absorb what you can, and continue reading posts and threads here. It'll clarify things.

    Also, in terms of the general advances in population genetics, I started a thread with all of the recent good papers for newbies to read.
    [/url]

    Oh, and welcome. Glad to have you. :)
    Thank you so much for the great post of info. Greatly appreciated.

    This is somewhat related to the topic at hand, but what websites are there where I can enter my haplgroup/genetic DNA sample and see how I compare to other Sicilian men? If I desperately wanted to know what my origin was, or how I match up with other Sicilians, where could I enter that info and perhaps find an answer?

    And for what it's worth, my ancestors were initially from the town of Borgetto just outside of Palermo - so they definitely weren't from the interior. Is R1b U152 common in that area?

    lastly, what were some of the more common haplogroups among French adventurers and soldiers who came to sicily? And how genetically different were they from the Lombards?

    P.S. if you have any good info on the Lombard immigration to sicily, please pass it along. I'm assuming these men were soldiers mostly correct?

    Thanks and take care.

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    04-02-18
    Posts
    13


    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    It could be Bell Beaker. The fist R1b U152 documented is a Beaker man from Bavaria IIRC and this culture was quite widespread in W. Sicily

    []
    Come again? What are you insinuating if you don't mind me asking?

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    04-02-18
    Posts
    13


    Country: United States



    And this applies for everyone, so if Roman Sicily was already well populated, I take it former legionaries weren't granted land en masse there now were they? IE Roman soldiers aren't entirely or even nearly wholly responsible for the influx of R1b U152??

  19. #19
    Princess davef's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-06-16
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,205


    Ethnic group
    Italian,Irish,Jewish
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by wesgarde View Post
    And this applies for everyone, so if Roman Sicily was already well populated, I take it former legionaries weren't granted land en masse there now were they? IE Roman soldiers aren't entirely or even nearly wholly responsible for the influx of R1b U152??
    Nobody knows for sure, and as Angela said, we need ancient ydna samples from Sicily to help figure this out
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

  20. #20
    Moderator Pax Augusta's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-06-14
    Location
    Ara Pacis
    Posts
    1,351


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by wesgarde View Post
    Hi everyone, I just recently had a DNA test done by Nat Geo (2.0), and my haplogroup was as it says in the title. R1b-u152.
    You need to know the subclade of R1b-U152 you belong to. As Maciamo says, it's quite difficult to draw any conclusion without the subclade.

  21. #21
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,236


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    @Wesgard,
    Wiki is usually a good place to start, not just for the articles but for the links to the papers, because you might find that your interpretation of the papers and that of the Wiki author might be different.

    See:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombards_of_Sicily

    It was discussed on this site on this thread:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-DNA-in-Sicily

    No, the Lombards weren't mostly soldiers.

    However, if your ancestry is mostly from around Palermo this would have less application to you. The Lombards were settled mostly in Central and Eastern Sicily where the Saracens held on the longest. It was both an attempt to pacify those areas and when the expulsions took place to sort of fill in the gaps.

    You have the map upthread showing you the number of Roman colonies. There were more in southern Spain than in Sicily.

    As to the Normans, as was pointed out to you, they were French speaking adventurers from Normandy. How "Scandinavian" they were by the time they arrived is anyone's guess. It doesn't really matter in my opinion because there were so few of them. To be the best of my recollection there were 80 soldiers or knights in the original group. Now, I'm sure more came, but this wasn't a big folk migration.

    As to U-152, there isn't a ton of it in Sicily or in southern Italy in general. We just don't know yet how to assign percentages to different migrations. That's what the poster upthread was talking about when he mentioned the Bell Beakers. They're another possibility.

    If you're interested in the y line, we're discussing Italian y dna, including Sicilian y dna on this thread.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...lts-from-Italy

    For autosomal comparisons, go to gedmatch.com, upload your raw data, and try the different calculators.

    There is a spread sheet for the dodecad.com Dienekes calculators so once you have your results on the various Dienekes calculators you can compare yourself to other Sicilians and Italians.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...tJU/edit#gid=0
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...hl=en_US#gid=0

  22. #22
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    9,497


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Wesgarde, Nat Geo 2.0 isn't detailed enough to give deep clades of U152. If fact, none of the cheap tests (23andMe, Living DNA, etc.) dig much deeper than U152. You would have to order one of those:

    1) a full Y chromosome test like FGC's Y Elite Ancestry Test ($645), which is the most detailed test you will find for Y-DNA haplogroups. It will find most of the mutations, even new ones that haven't been identified and are unique to you and your family. This test is the best if you have money and want to discover new SNPs covering all your recent ancestors (as new mutations/SNPs happen every generation and accumulate in subsequent generations).

    2) FTDNA's Y-111 (359$), which does not test any SNPs (only STR), but can be used to predict your deep clade (although it's not 100% accurate as it's a prediction, and does not identify new clades). IMO, it's overpriced.

    3) You could also order a panel of SNPs specific for U152 subclades. The cheapest I know if Y-Seq R1b-U152 superpanel (99$), which tests over 300 deep clades under U152 (most of the known ones). That's probably you best bet as it's reasonably cheap and will give you your exact branch (unless you belong to a rare yet undiscovered one).

  23. #23
    Regular Member Cato's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-08-12
    Posts
    449


    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by wesgarde View Post
    Come again? What are you insinuating if you don't mind me asking?
    What ?? Insinuating ??
    I've just said that R1b U152 in Western Sicily could be (in part) of Bell Beaker heritage

    Do you know what Bell Beaker is? The dispersal of R1b-M269 in Europe seems strickly related to them

  24. #24
    Moderator Pax Augusta's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-06-14
    Location
    Ara Pacis
    Posts
    1,351


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    What ?? Insinuating ??
    I've just said that R1b U152 in Western Sicily could be (in part) of Bell Beaker heritage

    Do you know what Bell Beaker is? The dispersal of R1b-M269 in Europe seems strickly related to them
    The fact that the only ancient U152 found so far comes from Germany and belonged to the German Bell Beaker does not mean that it necessarily arrived in Italy with the Bell Beaker.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Cato's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-08-12
    Posts
    449


    Country: Italy



    No, but it's a possibility, "fino a prova contraria" :)

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •