R1b-S28/u152 in Sicily? A product of Romans, Lombards or Normans?

wesgarde

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Hi everyone, I just recently had a DNA test done by Nat Geo (2.0), and my haplogroup was as it says in the title. R1b-u152.

My paternal lineage is undoubtedly Sicilian, they come from a Western portion of the Island in a village nearby Palermo, yet this haplogroup is especially rare for most Sicilian men. Can someone shed light on this haplogroup and it's importance in the region and more importantly how it likely came to be?

A friend of mine had suggested that R1b u152 in Sicily is largely due to Norman influence i.e. Many Danes living in the Danelaw in England, and in Normandy both tested positive for this haplogroup. Given the Norman conquest of the island, it would only make sense. But I also hear R1b u152 is highly correlated with Roman ancestry as well?

Can someone better explain this to me? And can you provide me with any tools so that I could better match my DYS findings and haplogroup with other test takers to further discover my family lineage? For what it's worth, my family surname seems to be a foundling/illegitimate name from my research.

Thanks.
 
Siculi and Elimi were Italic-speaking peoples and similar of Latins.

yet this haplogroup is especially rare for most Sicilian men

Not that rare.

 
It will ultimately depend on the subclade. Most Z56 and Z192 is probably of Roman (or more broadly Italic) origin. But it's also possible that some people from Lombardy and Normandy who were of Roman descent may have hitched a ride with the Germanic invaders until Sicily.

Very few Scandinavians and North Germans belong to U152, but some do, so some U152 in Italy might be or Germanic origin too (a tiny minority though, probably less than 1% of all U152). The vast majority (>95%) of Scandinavian U152 fall under the L2 clade. The most common L2 subclades in Scandinavia appear to be Z41150 (especially S8183 and Z142), followed by Z258 (Z34 and L20). But these are found all over Northeast Europe, so they aren't specifically Scandinavian.

The reason for the elevated percentage of U152 in northern Sicily might be the number of native French people who came during the Norman occupation. The majority of Normans would have been of French/Gaulo-Roman descent rather than of Scandinavian descent.
 
It will ultimately depend on the subclade. Most Z56 and Z192 is probably of Roman (or more broadly Italic) origin. But it's also possible that some people from Lombardy and Normandy who were of Roman descent may have hitched a ride with the Germanic invaders until Sicily.

Very few Scandinavians and North Germans belong to U152, but some do, so some U152 in Italy might be or Germanic origin too (a tiny minority though, probably less than 1% of all U152). The vast majority (>95%) of Scandinavian U152 fall under the L2 clade. The most common L2 subclades in Scandinavia appear to be Z41150 (especially S8183 and Z142), followed by Z258 (Z34 and L20). But these are found all over Northeast Europe, so they aren't specifically Scandinavian.

The reason for the elevated percentage of U152 in northern Sicily might be the number of native French people who came during the Norman occupation. The majority of Normans would have been of French/Gaulo-Roman descent rather than of Scandinavian descent.

What DYS markers would indicate Italic, vs Gallic vs Scandinavian ancestry? How can I further determine my subclade, which DNA test can do this?

And to be clear, yes, my family's ancestry is most certainly in the North of Sicily (north west to be more specific).

And what is your most likely guess, would it make the most sense that somewhere along the line I had a Gallic ancestor who came as a result of the Norman invasions?

If so, what percentage of these men were soldiers and where can I read up on the Normans inciting Frankish and Gallo-Roman Normans to take up their cause?

Thank you.
 
Siculi and Elimi were Italic-speaking peoples and similar of Latins.
Not that rare.
I thought the Elymi and Siculi shared haplogroups with other near eastern peoples like the Phoenicians?
And what haplogroups are most common among Gallo-Romans in Sicily? Can you better explain R1b-u152 to me in that sense? Thanks.
 
I thought the Elymi and Siculi shared haplogroups with other near eastern peoples like the Phoenicians?
Siculi and Elimi were Italic-speaking populations not near eastern semites.
 
Ok, well what DYS 'markers' (sorry I'm new to all of this) would indicate Sicilian and Elymian ancestry as opposed to Gallo-Roman?
 
Additionally what percentage of the invading Norman 'armies' were of largely Gallo-Roman ancestry as opposed to Danish/Norse ancestry? Any figures/articles/books would be appreciated.
 
It's the most recent about its language. It looks different from Sicel language but with Italic characteristics more than Aegean.
 
Hi, I'm sorry Angela, but what are you conveying?

That R1b u152 in Sicily is most likely Italic - more specifically Elymian or Sicel in origin? Why not Gallo-Roman given the repopulation of the island during the Norman period?

And where can I read this DNA analysis by Maciamo. I'm new to the site, my apologies.
 
Hi, I'm sorry Angela, but what are you conveying?

That R1b u152 in Sicily is most likely Italic - more specifically Elymian or Sicel in origin? Why not Gallo-Roman given the repopulation of the island during the Norman period?

And where can I read this DNA analysis by Maciamo. I'm new to the site, my apologies.

Indeed, some of it may be "Lombard", which just means generally Northwestern Italy. Most of the settlers came from the Kingdom of Lombardia, but Piedmont and Liguria were then part of that Kingdom, and it's from those areas that many of the settlers came. Some of it may be earlier, with the Siculi and perhaps the Elymians, and some of it may be Roman, but there wasn't very much actual Roman settlement in Sicily. It was already very populated.



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Until we get some ancient yDna from Sicily which is highly resolved as to subclade level there's no way of knowing definitively what came when, although certain people are very good at intelligent speculation. I wouldn't bet on getting specifically Siculi remains for testing for example, though, given how densely populated Sicily has been since the Neolithic and how layer covers layer, and also the fact that it's very warm there.

Maciamo's work is in the genetics section. When you type in eupedia.com, instead of going to forum go to genetics section. There's a lot of information there, including an article on Italian genetics, lists of y haplogroups by area etc.

Also use our search engine on the forum. It's good, and will lead you to a lot of good threads.

Just try to absorb what you can, and continue reading posts and threads here. It'll clarify things.

Also, in terms of the general advances in population genetics, I started a thread with all of the recent good papers for newbies to read.

See:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34850-Important-papers-for-newbies-to-Population-Genetics

Oh, and welcome. Glad to have you. :)
 
Indeed, some of it may be "Lombard", which just means generally Northwestern Italy. Most of the settlers came from the Kingdom of Lombardia, but Piedmont and Liguria were then part of that Kingdom, and it's from those areas that many of the settlers came. Some of it may be earlier, with the Siculi and perhaps the Elymians, and some of it may be Roman, but there wasn't very much actual Roman settlement in Sicily. It was already very populated.

Until we get some ancient yDna from Sicily which is highly resolved as to subclade level there's no way of knowing definitively what came when, although certain people are very good at intelligent speculation. I wouldn't bet on getting specifically Siculi remains for testing for example, though, given how densely populated Sicily has been since the Neolithic and how layer covers layer, and also the fact that it's very warm there.

Maciamo's work is in the genetics section. When you type in eupedia.com, instead of going to forum go to genetics section. There's a lot of information there, including an article on Italian genetics, lists of y haplogroups by area etc.

Also use our search engine on the forum. It's good, and will lead you to a lot of good threads.

Just try to absorb what you can, and continue reading posts and threads here. It'll clarify things.

Also, in terms of the general advances in population genetics, I started a thread with all of the recent good papers for newbies to read.
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Oh, and welcome. Glad to have you. :)

Thank you so much for the great post of info. Greatly appreciated.

This is somewhat related to the topic at hand, but what websites are there where I can enter my haplgroup/genetic DNA sample and see how I compare to other Sicilian men? If I desperately wanted to know what my origin was, or how I match up with other Sicilians, where could I enter that info and perhaps find an answer?

And for what it's worth, my ancestors were initially from the town of Borgetto just outside of Palermo - so they definitely weren't from the interior. Is R1b U152 common in that area?

lastly, what were some of the more common haplogroups among French adventurers and soldiers who came to sicily? And how genetically different were they from the Lombards?

P.S. if you have any good info on the Lombard immigration to sicily, please pass it along. I'm assuming these men were soldiers mostly correct?

Thanks and take care.
 
It could be Bell Beaker. The fist R1b U152 documented is a Beaker man from Bavaria IIRC and this culture was quite widespread in W. Sicily

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Come again? What are you insinuating if you don't mind me asking?
 
And this applies for everyone, so if Roman Sicily was already well populated, I take it former legionaries weren't granted land en masse there now were they? IE Roman soldiers aren't entirely or even nearly wholly responsible for the influx of R1b U152??
 
And this applies for everyone, so if Roman Sicily was already well populated, I take it former legionaries weren't granted land en masse there now were they? IE Roman soldiers aren't entirely or even nearly wholly responsible for the influx of R1b U152??

Nobody knows for sure, and as Angela said, we need ancient ydna samples from Sicily to help figure this out
 
Hi everyone, I just recently had a DNA test done by Nat Geo (2.0), and my haplogroup was as it says in the title. R1b-u152.

You need to know the subclade of R1b-U152 you belong to. As Maciamo says, it's quite difficult to draw any conclusion without the subclade.
 

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