Arnold Schoenberg

non-foras-ire

non-foras-ire

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Y-DNA haplogroup
I1-m253
mtDNA haplogroup
H1n
Famous Austrian jewish composer Arnold Schoenberg belongs to R1b according to Geni descendant testing.

Source:
geni.com/people/Arnold-Schoenberg/6000000002764344064

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Thanks. I will add him to the list of famous R1b.
 
Azzurro said:
He belongs to R-BY16148, its a subclade under DF27.

http://jewishdna.net/AB-147-dataFTDNA.html

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Schoenberg?iframe=yresults
Click to expand...


I have added him. Interestingly he is the first famous person who belongs to the R1b-DF27 branch, a mostly Celtic (or Ibero-Celtic) branch. His deep clade is under SRY2627, which is found mostly in Spain. I wonder if he is of Sephardic descent and his lineage was acquired (intermarriage, conversion or infidelity) in Spain before the expulsion of the Jews in 1492.
 
Maciamo said:
I have added him. Interestingly he is the first famous person who belongs to the R1b-DF27 branch, a mostly Celtic (or Ibero-Celtic) branch. His deep clade is under SRY2627, which is found mostly in Spain. I wonder if he is of Sephardic descent and his lineage was acquired (intermarriage, conversion or infidelity) in Spain before the expulsion of the Jews in 1492.
Click to expand...

It would be hard to know which of the three would be the likely scenario, I would think conversion is probably the most likely. His line according to Yfull has a pretty large bottleneck from 3000 ybp to 450 ybp.

https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y15783/

His line was probably initially Sephardic.
 
Azzurro said:
It would be hard to know which of the three would be the likely scenario, I would think conversion is probably the most likely. His line according to Yfull has a pretty large bottleneck from 3000 ybp to 450 ybp.

https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y15783/

His line was probably initially Sephardic.
Click to expand...

What exactly does it mean for Y DNA to go through a bottleneck? My line is from 1350 ybp to 375 ybp, as an example
 
ToBeOrNotToBe said:
What exactly does it mean for Y DNA to go through a bottleneck? My line is from 1350 ybp to 375 ybp, as an example
Click to expand...

It means that for a long period of time the line doesn’t branch out say in 1000 years for example, then there is expansion of branches.

Which line do you belong too? Does your branch at 1350 ybp have other related branches?
 
ToBeOrNotToBe said:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y12663/

Presumably my branch, as it’s the only Ashkenazi branch
Click to expand...

Even on Jewishdna.net its the only Ashkenazi branch listed under I1, your branch even seems to be rare amongst I1 there’s a bottleneck of 1650 years before your line and the Norweigan one split. Maybe your line has a similar story to that of the U106 Ivanhoe branch.
 
Azzurro said:
Even on Jewishdna.net its the only Ashkenazi branch listed under I1, your branch even seems to be rare amongst I1 there’s a bottleneck of 1650 years before your line and the Norweigan one split. Maybe your line has a similar story to that of the U106 Ivanhoe branch.
Click to expand...

I was thinking that too - Ivanhoe is basically confirmed to have come from sephardim actually
 
ToBeOrNotToBe said:
I was thinking that too - Ivanhoe is basically confirmed to have come from sephardim actually
Click to expand...

Yeah I know, we probably read the same source. :) You should contact the owner of Jewishdna.net he would be able to answer more detailed questions regarding the Ashkenazi bottleneck.

If you want I can pm you his email address.
 
Azzurro said:
Yeah I know, we probably read the same source. :) You should contact the owner of Jewishdna.net he would be able to answer more detailed questions regarding the Ashkenazi bottleneck.If you want I can pm you his email address.
Click to expand...
I have his address - already emailed him! Besides, I know all the rough details of the bottleneck anyway - just I'm not yet fluent at all in dealing with Y DNA.If the last common ancestor between Gentile and Jew, so to speak (I don't think of people in those divisions!), was about 1350 ybp, why are there so few AJ Y DNA I1s? Surely it would have grown massively in Poland-Lithuania given the birthrates for Jews would have been so high, right? The same applies to some other branches too, but for many of these branches it is likely the ancestor was originally Middle Eastern, so why then aren't there more people in that branch? According to jewishdna.net, at least from gauging the pie chart (it's hard to tell precisely, as I'm definitely not manually counting things up), Y DNA I1 accounts for about 2% of the pre-bottleneck branches, but now it's ten times less that!
 
ToBeOrNotToBe said:
I have his address - already emailed him! Besides, I know all the rough details of the bottleneck anyway - just I'm not yet fluent at all in dealing with Y DNA.If the last common ancestor between Gentile and Jew, so to speak (I don't think of people in those divisions!), was about 1350 ybp, why are there so few AJ Y DNA I1s? Surely it would have grown massively in Poland-Lithuania given the birthrates for Jews would have been so high, right? The same applies to some other branches too, but for many of these branches it is likely the ancestor was originally Middle Eastern, so why then aren't there more people in that branch? According to jewishdna.net, at least from gauging the pie chart (it's hard to tell precisely, as I'm definitely not manually counting things up), Y DNA I1 accounts for about 2% of the pre-bottleneck branches, but now it's ten times less that!
Click to expand...

He’s really knowledgeable, he helped me alot in the beginning when I was clueless about Y. That is a very good question, well in the case if your lineage was originally Sephardic then it would make a bit more sense as the line would have came later to Eastern Europe presumably during the Inquisition and it did not have time to expand like other well defined Ashkenazi branches, in the case of U106 Ivanhoe and how it became the 10th largest Ashkenazi line could be that some branches left the Iberian peninsula earlier and expanded East with earlier Ashkenazi communities in Eastern Europe. It would be hard to give a definitive answer why some lines were so successful versus others.
 
Azzurro said:
He’s really knowledgeable, he helped me alot in the beginning when I was clueless about Y. That is a very good question, well in the case if your lineage was originally Sephardic then it would make a bit more sense as the line would have came later to Eastern Europe presumably during the Inquisition and it did not have time to expand like other well defined Ashkenazi branches, in the case of U106 Ivanhoe and how it became the 10th largest Ashkenazi line could be that some branches left the Iberian peninsula earlier and expanded East with earlier Ashkenazi communities in Eastern Europe. It would be hard to give a definitive answer why some lines were so successful versus others.
Click to expand...

Maciamo is extremely smart here too, I wonder if he has any idea...
 
Maciamo said:
This branch is Germanic in origins, not Jewish. It is less than 400 years old and would therefore have entered the Jewish gene pool relatively recently (through intermarriage, conversion or infidelity).
Click to expand...
Nah it's not less than 400 years old, the most recent common ancestor with a non-Jew is at most 1350 years ago (just tmrca among Jews at least is 375 years).Of course it's from conversion (or rape, infidelity etc) though, but I'm not sure I agree it's that recent. Without any doubt, it is in the range of 1350 to 375 years old. I would be surprised if it was much younger than 1000 years old, unless I1 is criminally undersampled in e.g. Germany or France, or potentially Poland.
 
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I1 is a pretty sweet haplogroup to have though, at least in my opinion. It doesn't mean much but still. Also, fun fact, the day I found out about this result (but definitely before I had seen), I went to a synagogue AND a Viking themed restaurant, which is a pretty spooky coincidence!
 
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